Author Topic: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?  (Read 67946 times)

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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #200 on: Mon, 25 November 2019, 05:34:09 »
With W10 I'm already keeping a record of a variety of version-specific and broader OS issues that are reported by users and in the news (partly out of amusement, partly for reference), which is more than can be said of many and particularly more of a problem for W7 users upgrading. Of course if I did happen to run into any unexpected issues following an upgrade in years to come I'd investigate it, as I'd expect most reasonable users would.

I'm not here to defend Win10 and I don't think you're actually interested in the rest, here's why.

Your list is (mostly) pointless and is a self fulfilling prophesy.
The problems are always changing as is the solutions, last version problem notes are almost always useless on the latest and all it's doing is giving you more and more reasons to never switch to it. Your list is your reason to never switch. You're not waiting for EOL (keep telling yourself that), you're simply waiting until you are forced to do it, and when it happens it will be unexpected, and it will suck. Odds are you won't experience any of the issues you have written down but if you do it will be something just coming down the pipe and not on your list. And yes, I realize that's not confidence inspiring but it's better than it happening in the middle of a forced upgrade because of a hardware failure. Now you're dealing with a new hardware, a new problem and a new OS at the same time.
« Last Edit: Mon, 25 November 2019, 05:35:41 by Leslieann »
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #201 on: Mon, 25 November 2019, 08:28:58 »

I'm not here to defend Win10 and I don't think you're actually interested in the rest, here's why.

Your list is (mostly) pointless and is a self fulfilling prophesy.
The problems are always changing as is the solutions, last version problem notes are almost always useless on the latest and all it's doing is giving you more and more reasons to never switch to it. Your list is your reason to never switch. You're not waiting for EOL (keep telling yourself that), you're simply waiting until you are forced to do it, and when it happens it will be unexpected, and it will suck. Odds are you won't experience any of the issues you have written down but if you do it will be something just coming down the pipe and not on your list. And yes, I realize that's not confidence inspiring but it's better than it happening in the middle of a forced upgrade because of a hardware failure. Now you're dealing with a new hardware, a new problem and a new OS at the same time.

Wat does LLnn recommend for Totes-Incognito setup ??

Offline Coreda

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #202 on: Mon, 25 November 2019, 12:28:13 »
I don't think you're actually interested in the rest, here's why. Your list is (mostly) pointless and is a self fulfilling prophesy.

*snip*

I mean, I can see how you might come away with that impression but the argument seems to boil down to 'better jump in now than later' but admittedly without a compelling reason other than seemingly exaggerating the difficulty of upgrading 8.1 to an OS that's fundamentally based upon it anyway (and to someone who spent far more time than necessary researching prior to the last OS jump, as mentioned), should I be forced to following some hypothetical, irrecoverable hardware failure and where W10 is apparently the only OS possible to use for the rebuild (must have been a pretty grave system failure :) ).

I understand some issues do get fixed or walked back in W10, however while some are bugs others are intentional feature/policy regressions I'm not a fan of and in addition to the continuing quality control issues it's something either one accepts using W10 (as you pointed out) and tries to mitigate/account for or decides to simply use a different OS.

It's not hard to see why then I'd remain on 8.1 while it's suitable, no? It's been stable for me for years, has currently no unwanted aspects and has had a far better track record of update quality than W10 by most accounts. Shrug.

It's also only if I don't find an alternative arrangement that's more suitable to W10 where it may become the only feasible upgrade path but I'm not sure yet. Been weighing a dual system/OS for separately offline online use, which I've done before. There's no rush to seeing how things are closer to EOL, which is also what I did last I upgraded my main Windows system.

As for documenting details about W10 it allows one to see the directions the OS has taken over time. It's categorized and not limited just to bugs. Though in regards to bugs if we look at a particularly egregious example from the end of last year, the Documents wiping bug, I would have been affected had I used the OS since the specific criteria that triggered it I happen to meet (using a directory named 'Documents' in the root user directory that isn't assigned as the OS designated Documents location since I use that as a honeypot).

Several users within different communities I'm part of have had their system or data borked from updates, with one I know who lost some of their work due to it, including something they were making for that community. I have daily backups so such scenarios wouldn't have been as severe a setback for me as they have been for others but it's hardly minor or even that uncommon to see updates impacting users' trust like that.

---

Btw would still be interested in the entirely hidden telemetry backports if you have more details. The German government commissioned an investigation into W10's telemetry (since they needed to understand it by law) and through a deep dive identified which aspects of the OS handle it, which were the same things found in backported telemetry for previous Windows versions but perhaps there's something else that's worth looking into.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #203 on: Mon, 25 November 2019, 19:00:47 »
Wat does LLnn recommend for Totes-Incognito setup ??
Total incognito?
How far do you want to go down that rabbit hole?

Basic setup...
Ubuntu thumb stick in read only mode, no internal drive (if you need space use a second thumb stick), with dedicated USB wireless card (disposable or changeable mac address) connected through an open access point. Do not install any plugins, use it stock and park across the street to avoid cameras, better yet, a Pringles cantenna and sit down the road. Oh, and make sure IPV6 is disabled and you use something other than Intel, and preferably a disposable system you paid cash for (while on vacation). Older is also better. Try to not re-use the same stick or wifi adapter too often, and no patterns in terms of places you use for a connection. Many restaurants have free wifi. Hospitals and hotels used to be good but those are being locked down, you could easily social engineer these but that exposes you in other ways. Oh, and when doing this, leave your phone at home.

There's probably more I'm forgetting but this should be a good start.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #204 on: Mon, 25 November 2019, 19:43:50 »
I mean, I can see how you might come away with that impression but the argument seems to boil down to 'better jump in now than later' but admittedly without a compelling reason other than seemingly exaggerating the difficulty of upgrading 8.1 to an OS that's fundamentally based upon it anyway (and to someone who spent far more time than necessary researching prior to the last OS jump, as mentioned), should I be forced to following some hypothetical, irrecoverable hardware failure and where W10 is apparently the only OS possible to use for the rebuild (must have been a pretty grave system failure :) ).

Let me preface this by saying very little of this will help convince you to switch, in fact most these responses will make you want to stay with Win8.

I did not exaggerate the problem you read it as me exaggerating it, it's a matter of ease. You know your system, you know it works, now is the best time to do an OS upgrade. Not when you finally decide to do a hardware upgrade or you are forced to and then run into problems along with an unknown system. It's much easier to do it with a known system than an unknown one. Computer troubleshooting 101, eliminate variables.

As for hardware failure, upgrades happen, power spikes happen, motherboards fail. You exactly can't go buy a brand new 4th gen Intel motherboard down the street.
Can you get Win8 onto newer hardware, yes, but it's messy and it lacks all the proper drivers, the few that did get released have actually started to be suppressed. There used to be a Gigabit(?) tool to make Win7 and 8 bootable on newer hardware, that has been taken down.

I think this is something people do not understand, MS and big companies (not just Intel and AMD), they want 7 and 8 dead just as much as MS does. It means fewer drivers to support and that means less Q&A. It's far cheaper to support one OS than it is to support 3 or 4. They are actively working against you. Are there workarounds for all of it? Mostly, but that will become less and less as time goes on. I doubt you will see support for PCIE 4.0 in Win8 in any form, same with Gen 4 USB, will it work in 3.0 mode, maybe, but it depends on how aggressive the companies become about it. Nvidia and AMD could completely cripple backwards GPU support and Intel could cripple Thunderbolt support and as USB and Thunderbolt merge, that could take down that system as well.

Best reason to do it now is like I said, you know your system works and it's stable. It's not really your choice long term companies are already cutting 7 and 8 support. I guess what I'm really saying is get with it, or leave Windows because what you want to do is unsustainable.

More?
Better underpinnings, it has better networking, better security, gets priority over other OS for security patches, it gets priority on drivers, it has new optimizations for general computing, hardware and gaming. Mostly though, it's not being deprecated out of existence. Win8 is DEAD, stick a fork in it, it's done. 7 is actually more alive than 8 is despite being older, Linux users outnumber Win8 users, it's that dead. I won't be surprised if AV companies start abandoning it due to lack of users, there's so little money left in it. One has already left 7.

I'm no fan of Win10, I can give you a TON of reasons not to switch to it, but if you are staying with Windows you will eventually have to switch.


As for documenting details about W10 it allows one to see the directions the OS has taken over time. It's categorized and not limited just to bugs. Though in regards to bugs if we look at a particularly egregious example from the end of last year, the Documents wiping bug, I would have been affected had I used the OS since the specific criteria that triggered it I happen to meet (using a directory named 'Documents' in the root user directory that isn't assigned as the OS designated Documents location since I use that as a honeypot).

You are collecting a list of problems, current or not, when the time comes your first excuse will be "it's fine for now why ditch Win8", then as time goes on you will resort more and more to your list and the fact that "it works fine as it is".  You may have started with the right intentions, but we are now 4 years into Windows 10 it's time to sh*t or get off the pot.

I know about that "bug", it's a feature, at least it is now, it may not have been on purpose but how many signed up for One Drive as a result.
Honestly, in some ways, it was a good thing. Getting people to make backups is nearly impossible until they experience data loss, as word spread I had quite a few people actually ask me about it rather than me trying to hit them over the head with the fact that they needed it.



Several users within different communities I'm part of have had their system or data borked from updates, with one I know who lost some of their work due to it, including something they were making for that community. I have daily backups so such scenarios wouldn't have been as severe a setback for me as they have been for others but it's hardly minor or even that uncommon to see updates impacting users' trust like that.
Those communities are just reinforcing your reasons, I've also seen and lost data as well as an expensive ssd to it (thanks MS!).
I won't say it can't happen, it does.

This is the new normal.
Is it right? Nope, but it is the new norm. Again, we are 4 years in, if you haven't switched willingly by now, you probably will only do it when forced. There is no "next Windows", so it's not like XP users waiting for 7 or 8 users waiting for 10. This is it.


Btw would still be interested in the entirely hidden telemetry backports if you have more details. The German government commissioned an investigation into W10's telemetry (since they needed to understand it by law) and through a deep dive identified which aspects of the OS handle it, which were the same things found in backported telemetry for previous Windows versions but perhaps there's something else that's worth looking into.
Telemetry is not a new service, it's built into existing systems.
A good example is drivers, if you block enough of telemetry, Windows cannot even look for drivers when you attach a new device. So if you're looking for a new entry in services or task manager it's not there. This is exactly what happened to me when I did this on Win10. It's known that many security updates had it included without notifying users that it carried that payload. So while some said they were for telemetry, some were actual security updates but included that along with it. I have a list of them somewhere, some are easy to figure out, others less so, same with their deviousness.

Also, the backported telemetry lacks even the rudimentary controls that Win10 has. You have zero control over it, though to be fair the controls for privacy in Win10 are mostly there to make you feel like you have control (door close buttons on elevators are the same).
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Offline Coreda

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #205 on: Tue, 26 November 2019, 02:58:35 »
I did not exaggerate the problem you read it as me exaggerating it, it's a matter of ease. You know your system, you know it works, now is the best time to do an OS upgrade.

As for hardware failure, upgrades happen, power spikes happen, motherboards fail. You exactly can't go buy a brand new 4th gen Intel motherboard down the street.

It's not really your choice long term companies are already cutting 7 and 8 support. I guess what I'm really saying is get with it, or leave Windows because what you want to do is unsustainable.

Firstly, I appreciate the thoughtful reply. The thing is, I'd agree that should the system hardware remain as-is it would be from that perspective one less variable if I were interested enough in what the OS offers and wasn't concerned with the other drawbacks discussed. Future HW support is probably the most relevant consideration to me tbh, if I actually had something needed that was incompatible, though I buy new hardware so rarely.

Although, even with such a failure, whether I'm on 8.1 or 10, I'd still be spending the time with research and buying new hardware for a rebuild so from that side of things it's much of a muchness (putting aside that it's possible to still buy identical or compatible, previous gen hardware from secondary markets for replacements).

The difference then mostly comes down to how difficult a 8.1 -> 10 OS transition is, which I haven't seen widespread reports of being an issue (upgrading over that is) but I'd likely do a fresh install, migrate data and look into carefully whether in some current upgrade scenario (same or different hardware) or future should I decide W10 is the only feasible choice should 8.1 become impractical to continue using as my online system (same or different hardware).

As for power spikes and dropouts it's the reason I bought a UPS. I'd seen a user I'm familiar with have their motherboard fried due to a spike years back which also affected other components and so I looked into how I'd protect against such a scenario (having it switch to the battery has been great in a few situations). Similarly I'd wanted backup solutions for mitigating potential issues down the line even further back and so looked into and implemented that as well.

Are there other scenarios that could potentially affect me? Sure although I try to account for them as much as I can (heck I move data between unknown Windows systems using either reformatted flash drives with a Mac on a fresh profile as a go-between or use read-only discs, how many would even bother). So I'd say I've been more careful in those cases than most people and documenting pitfalls over time does have its benefits :).


You are collecting a list of problems, current or not, when the time comes your first excuse will be "it's fine for now why ditch Win8". Then as time goes on you will resort more and more to your list and the fact that "it works fine as it is". You may have started with the right intentions, but we are now 4 years into Windows 10 it's time to sh*t or get off the pot.

Those communities are just reinforcing your reasons, I've also seen and lost data as well as an expensive ssd to it (thanks MS!).
I won't say it can't happen, it does. This is the new normal. Is it right? Nope, but it is the new norm.

If I actually had ongoing issues with my OS then naturally I'd be looking at more immediate alternatives rather than looking over some list and trying to convince myself in some cyclical, desperate scenario as you're describing, come on now. I mean, doesn't seem difficult to see how if something is stable and suitable for purpose and foreseeable drawbacks are mitigated one would prefer sticking to something that runs well as-is while they have the opportunity, than migrating to an OS with widely known drawbacks and for my uses very few advantages. Obviously you feel differently about the advantages it brings for your uses compared to the downsides otherwise we wouldn't be having all these verbose replies :p

It's also not entire communities such impressions are coming from, it's users like you and me in addition to devs who I've interacted with encountering both lesser and also non-trivial issues with the OS to a frequency/degree not experienced in the prior couple Windows versions (along with a mix of users praising W10, ironically occasionally for things introduced in W8 which some skipped). Perhaps the net outcome is more users looking into fallback solutions like backups and such but I've also seen how it has leads to various frustrations and trepidation.

With 8.1 at the beginning I posted strong critiques for some of its customizability regressions and things MS were sneaky about, most of which I was already aware and accounted for but nonetheless deserved criticism and user awareness, yet once that's taken into account it's been hassle-free ever since. Also nothing of that has changed so it still requires user awareness. I'm not some dyed-in-the-wool fanboy but it nevertheless has been a decent OS. If I had W10 dialed in suitably and feedback improved broadly about the state of its update QC then it'd be a no-brainer switch for the most part. I'm not some lunatic :D

Telemetry is not a new service, it's built into existing systems. A good example is drivers, if you block enough of telemetry, Windows cannot even look for drivers when you attach a new device. So if you're looking for a new entry in services or task manager it's not there.

This is exactly what happened to me when I did this on Win10. It's known that many security updates had it included without notifying users that it carried that payload. So while some said they were for telemetry, some were actual security updates but included that along with it. I have a list of them somewhere, some are easy to figure out, others less so, same with their deviousness.

Also, the backported telemetry lacks even the rudimentary controls that Win10 has. You have zero control over it, though to be fair the controls for privacy in Win10 are mostly there to make you feel like you have control (door close buttons on elevators are the same).

On W8.1 I haven't experienced issues installing drivers or updates with the known aspects of backported W10 telemetry disabled. Have read however that disabling the same aspects in W10 itself causes automatic Windows updates to stop (similarly for Enterprise/Education editions when telemetry is set to Security/'0' level) since it's no longer checking, which from accounts seems to be new behavior W10 brought. Outside of the research by others into W10's and its backported telemetry though I haven't been able to find information regarding entirely hidden backported telemetry apart from instances where Microsoft re-enables the existing things via undisclosed updates (which has also occurred on W10).

« Last Edit: Tue, 26 November 2019, 03:03:38 by Coreda »

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #206 on: Wed, 27 November 2019, 20:08:42 »
If I actually had ongoing issues with my OS then naturally I'd be looking at more immediate alternatives rather than looking over some list and trying to convince myself in some cyclical, desperate scenario as you're describing, come on now. I mean, doesn't seem difficult to see how if something is stable and suitable for purpose and foreseeable drawbacks are mitigated one would prefer sticking to something that runs well as-is while they have the opportunity, than migrating to an OS with widely known drawbacks and for my uses very few advantages. Obviously you feel differently about the advantages it brings for your uses compared to the downsides otherwise we wouldn't be having all these verbose replies :p

It's also not entire communities such impressions are coming from, it's users like you and me in addition to devs who I've interacted with encountering both lesser and also non-trivial issues with the OS to a frequency/degree not experienced in the prior couple Windows versions (along with a mix of users praising W10, ironically occasionally for things introduced in W8 which some skipped). Perhaps the net outcome is more users looking into fallback solutions like backups and such but I've also seen how it has leads to various frustrations and trepidation.
What alternatives? You either leave Windows or go to Win10. That's pretty much it.

I have said repeatedly, I left Windows entirely so Win10 doesn't bring me any advantage (economically it's a disadvantage). Early on, yes the idea was to not use it but we are now 4 years in, Win10, is a "mature" Os. If you think companies and users rallying together are going to push MS to fix what's wrong, you are dead wrong, we tried, it didn't work.

*beating a dead horse here but maybe you will finally get it*
Win8 is soon to be no longer a realistic OS to use, it's all but dead to companies who support it and once Win7 goes, they will more than likely decide to stop supporting anything but Win10. Why? They no longer need Win7 and the only reason many develop anything for 8 at all anymore is because it's easy to support 7 and 8 together (8 and 8.1 are dead operating systems). Won't they be losing out on potential customers? Of course, but the loss of support staff needed will offset most of that, especially when many of those users will upgrade soon. Yes, some will still offer support, but they will shrink, a few will still but they will be specialized.

I'm guessing you haven't been though many OS phaseouts, this is how it happens.
What do you think will happen if MS and Google agree to stop supporting Chrome and Office on Win7 or Win8? Can't happen? Oh it very much can. MS would probably even pay them to do it.
But they will loose...  No, they won't. If support flounders many WILL go upgrade and those who don't are not customers making them much anyhow. Those are known as "killer apps" and without them the OS will falter. Remember, you don't own the software, especially something used as a service, which Chrome and 365 is. They dictate the terms. Still think it can't? Ask Intel and AMD for drivers.

Of course you could keep using it without support, but are you a holdout of fanboy at that point? And what do you do as more and more software stops supporting it?  I suspect you think you have years left because 8 has years to EOL, just because the OS has years doesn't mean the supporting software does. You're on a train running out of track, pretty much everyone has already gotten off except you.


*as for the verbose replies, advising people on OS choice is kind of habit due to my job.


I'm not some dyed-in-the-wool fanboy but it nevertheless has been a decent OS. If I had W10 dialed in suitably and feedback improved broadly about the state of its update QC then it'd be a no-brainer switch for the most part.
Are you sure about this?
As a tech, even I start to wonder when I see Win7 or 8 at this point. I'm not alone in this.


On W8.1 I haven't experienced issues installing drivers or updates with the known aspects of backported W10 telemetry disabled.
Disabled or uninstalled?
I'm not aware of (nor have I looked) for a way to disable telemetry in Win8 once installed, there's little point to it since most people just try and make sure it's not installed in the first place. Not to mention so few actually using Win8, much less With Win8 and updates enabled at this point and even fewer taking the time to look into it. Again, Win8 is dead.

Not installing or uninstalling telemetry on Win10 isn't an option. It is baked into the os (in fact the very base of it), it wasn't added later in an update that you can rollback.
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Offline Coreda

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #207 on: Thu, 28 November 2019, 03:46:23 »
What alternatives? You either leave Windows or go to Win10. That's pretty much it.

I have said repeatedly, I left Windows entirely so Win10 doesn't bring me any advantage (economically it's a disadvantage). Early on, yes the idea was to not use it but we are now 4 years in, Win10, is a "mature" Os. If you think companies and users rallying together are going to push MS to fix what's wrong, you are dead wrong, we tried, it didn't work.

Yes, the alternatives for an online system are other OSes or W10, which I mentioned in a prior post and also that I've done before.

I've seen posts by W10 users in this topic both praising it to varying degrees and also being negative toward it (even non-W10 users previously in the topic), along with sub-discussions of using Linux—heck, even a user still on W7, all of which received far terser response chains—if any—to, so not quite sure how my particular comments were engaged with like this but that's as it is.

I do recognize and have considered these potential scenarios being brought up both on the hardware and software side of things and I've also been through OS phaseouts both on Windows and Mac so it's not as though I haven't had experience with OS deprecation in software releases (though as a side note the particular programs listed don't affect me but I recognize the potential for deprecation in general). The post you quoted from even begins with the statement that if I had ongoing issues with the OS I'd look seriously at something sooner yet the response returns to things already discussed and addressed, including various new hardware drivers being W10 compatible only which I touched on even in the very first post...

Are you sure about this? As a tech, even I start to wonder when I see Win7 or 8 at this point. I'm not alone in this.

I mean, does posting that I've critiqued an OS for its drawbacks but have had no real problems with it since install and is viable for my needs for the time being make one a fanboy? Would mentioning W10 is problematic in a 'ton' of ways—comparing it to 'malware' multiple times (even I've never gone that far)—while having experienced various issues with it until you stopped using it, yet criticize those who don't have the immediate need for it, make you a fanboy/girl or apologist? :p

*as for the verbose replies, advising people on OS choice is kind of habit due to my job.

I'd hazard a guess that some of what is driving your replies is dealing with others for whom their setup and the software they use is more currently affected or limited by the OS version they use and so you're coming at it from that perspective, perhaps having been frustrated with some other dialog you've experienced which I can be sympathetic with. Maybe we can leave this discussion until my arrangement becomes less viable and go from there :)

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #208 on: Thu, 28 November 2019, 04:58:12 »
I'd hazard a guess that some of what is driving your replies is dealing with others for whom their setup and the software they use is more currently affected or limited by the OS version they use and so you're coming at it from that perspective, perhaps having been frustrated with some other dialog you've experienced which I can be sympathetic with. Maybe we can leave this discussion until my arrangement becomes less viable and go from there :)
Very possible, my job is to try and future proof an "investment".
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #209 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 16:09:37 »
I literally just upgraded to 10 from 7 last night and am not happy at all. It's drastically slower on boot, starting up any app, and loading folders in Windows takes ages.

Absolutely awful, I hate it and the new Start menu design is total ****. Performance is complete garbage next to 7. And on top of all that it disassociated like 70% of my icons across all non-main folders randomly with their file paths, no rhyme or reason just whatever random files it felt like changing to blank tiles.

It's constantly running in the bg doing ****ING NOTHING! WHAT ARE YOU DOING WINDOWS? STOP!

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #210 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 17:21:42 »
I said god damn, there is so much garbage running in the background that is completely pointless. Storage Sense, Notifications, Focus Assist, Shared Experience

I don't want ANY OF THIS GARBAGE. It's not useful, it just more trash clogging the pipeline for no reason. I hate it  >:D

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #211 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 17:39:38 »
I've been seeing more and more reports of Win10 slowing.
When released it was very close to Win7 in performance, but now people are saying it's starting to run a bit slow on 8gig systems. Basically 16gig nvme is now running closer to how it used to with 8gig/ssd.

This is to be expected as it ages and grows, the problem here is that there's nothing to indicate it and you have no say in it. It used to be you saw speed degradation when you upgraded the OS or at the very least you installed a service pack, now it just slowly degrades over time. It used to be junk building up but now Windows has ways to combat this by reloading itself, unfortunately this also means Win10 is degrading at a similar rate despite this. Regardless, it's not a bug, it's a feature, this will drive new pc sales. You didn't really think Wintel was going to let you stick to your current WIn10/computer and never need to upgrade did you? The more insideous part is that MS can now basically micromanage the market at will. Slow quarter? Push a heavy update that runs bad on older systems. None of this even touches on the garbage thrown in, but yeah, it's a problem.


On the other hand, Mac Mojave and Catalina seem to be a return to form on Mac, fixing a lot of the problems I've seen on the past few releases (though they too come with some extra crap I don't want and can't remove). While I can't say much about the speed (seems slightly better than Sierra), my laptop seems to like Mojave. I can't move to Catalina yet as it drops 32bit support and I still have an older app that won't run on it yet.

And Linux is Linux, it gets better and better the longer I use it.
Other than Nvidia, that's a dumpster fire.
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #212 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 17:43:09 »
Game Mode? WHY IS THIS GARBAGE ON BY DEFAULT?!? and it keeps trying to make Edge my default browser, I've set it to FF 3x now.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #213 on: Fri, 20 December 2019, 18:07:46 »
Game Mode? WHY IS THIS GARBAGE ON BY DEFAULT?!? and it keeps trying to make Edge my default browser, I've set it to FF 3x now.
Have tool change it in settings, not just the popup.

And make sure all updates are in before you start messing with things or it will be over-written.
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Offline jacethesaltsculptor

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #214 on: Mon, 30 December 2019, 13:35:46 »
I use Windows 10 on my main workstation primarily because of Games, however I'm flirting more and more with Proton on Steam, which may be the final nail in the coffin for me.

My job requires that I support a couple hundred Windows machines, so I doubt I'll ever be completely out of the Windows world, and unless it ever becomes a minority OS, probably wouldn't want to be.

However every other machine I own is a Linux or Unix machine: I run 5 Ubuntu Computers for various host, Virtual Machines, and servers, and a Mac Pro 5,1 that I got for a deal and use nearly daily.

Ironically my workstation at Work is on Ubuntu, and I manage Windows through VMs there or via built in tools depending on what it is.

My dream is to someday be Linux/Unix entirely, but practicality for me demands otherwise, someday though.

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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #215 on: Fri, 10 January 2020, 15:12:37 »
I use Windows 10 on my main workstation primarily because of Games, however I'm flirting more and more with Proton on Steam, which may be the final nail in the coffin for me.

My job requires that I support a couple hundred Windows machines, so I doubt I'll ever be completely out of the Windows world, and unless it ever becomes a minority OS, probably wouldn't want to be.

However every other machine I own is a Linux or Unix machine: I run 5 Ubuntu Computers for various host, Virtual Machines, and servers, and a Mac Pro 5,1 that I got for a deal and use nearly daily.

Ironically my workstation at Work is on Ubuntu, and I manage Windows through VMs there or via built in tools depending on what it is.

My dream is to someday be Linux/Unix entirely, but practicality for me demands otherwise, someday though.

So you do have a Mac Pro, hopefully not on the poor desk. Those 4.1/5.1 Macs are boat anchors, well-built, entirely too interesting boat anchors for being made by Apple.

I
I literally just upgraded to 10 from 7 last night and am not happy at all. It's drastically slower on boot, starting up any app, and loading folders in Windows takes ages.

Absolutely awful, I hate it and the new Start menu design is total ****. Performance is complete garbage next to 7. And on top of all that it disassociated like 70% of my icons across all non-main folders randomly with their file paths, no rhyme or reason just whatever random files it felt like changing to blank tiles.

It's constantly running in the bg doing ****ING NOTHING! WHAT ARE YOU DOING WINDOWS? STOP!

Did you do an upgrade install? Those never go well, or at least never had in my experience. Significantly slower in use than a wipe and fresh install of Windows 10. With fresh installs, Windows 7 is actually the slug of the most recent M$ Windows iterations in my experience. Much slower than 10 and 8 on the same hardware. This is surprising, considering that Windows 7 was so much better optimized than Vista. Various old desktop and laptop systems that I wouldn't think at all about installing Windows on are surprisingly snappy with 32 bit Windows 10, and yes, that usually means around 2gb of RAM. All I have noticed that has started to eat excessive amounts of memory over recent years is web browsers. 4gb is no longer sufficient for me with many tabs open in Firefox Quantum. Chrome has always been an unnecessarily all-consuming black hole of RAM though.

Another important/useful thing is that Both Windows 8 and 10 boot substantially faster than 7 when installed correctly in UEFI mode, especially when an SSD is involved. I have noticed that it is even faster than Windows XP to boot on the same hardware, faster than most, if not all, minimal Linux distros I have tried that has a window manager.

I have used Windows 10 daily, on the majority of the desktop and laptop computers that I own (I have significantly more computers than I even have mechanical keyboards. I have a problem) since it was still in beta. With fresh installs, I have had very few problems since then, mostly with updates breaking user accounts, and I think some very early Nvidia driver issues. The layout/organization is slightly worse than Windows 7, which was slightly worse than XP, but many of the added hotkeys/context menus (added in Windows 8, but we don't talk about that dumpster fire) are a fantastic addition.

There's no other reasonable operating system for gaming, M$ (of course) axed Directx on everything prior to it, and game support on just about everything else is horrendous (Linux seemed to be on the rise until Valve seemed to waffle on SteamOS). If not for this, I might use Linux more commonly than Windows.

For those who say they can't afford it, activating Windows 10 with a Windows 7 or 8 license key is still a thing. M$ has never removed the feature, even though they claim to have. I'll leave it at that though.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #216 on: Fri, 10 January 2020, 20:02:24 »
Did you do an upgrade install? Those never go well, or at least never had in my experience. Significantly slower in use than a wipe and fresh install of Windows 10.
The Win10 upgrade is not the same as Win7 or 8 upgrades and it has changed since initial release.
At this point (I could be wrong, I'd have to check) it's pretty similar to a major update, it copies out your files, wipes what's left, re-installs the OS and then then puts your files back. Great when it gets it right as you get what amounts to a (mostly) fresh install. Unfortunately when this system fails, it's bad, like when it purged user files not stored in One Drive or somehow copies over infected files.

That said, I'm with you, fresh install every time. Better to know what you are working with.


With fresh installs, Windows 7 is actually the slug of the most recent M$ Windows iterations in my experience. Much slower than 10 and 8 on the same hardware.
I think quite a few would disagree with you, many are starting to think Win10 is getting a bit bloated and slowing down.


Another important/useful thing is that Both Windows 8 and 10 boot substantially faster than 7 when installed correctly in UEFI mode, especially when an SSD is involved. I have noticed that it is even faster than Windows XP to boot on the same hardware, faster than most, if not all, minimal Linux distros I have tried that has a window manager.
8 and 10 boot faster because they are not actually booting.
Both by default use fastboot, not not to be confused with bios fast boot. It's using a tweaked standby and not actually shutting
down.

If you want to see an actual cold boot you need either disable fastboot or hold shift the follow the prompts to shut down, this will allow you to actually shut down/restart without it cheating. It's not fair compare the modified standby on Win8/10 to a cold boot on Win7 or Linux install.


There's no other reasonable operating system for gaming, M$ (of course) axed Directx on everything prior to it, and game support on just about everything else is horrendous (Linux seemed to be on the rise until Valve seemed to waffle on SteamOS). If not for this, I might use Linux more commonly than Windows.
Valve dropped SteamOS because it's not needed, Proton and DXVK work fantastic.
Between Steam Proton and Lutris there is very little you can't play with the only real hangup being anti-cheat software. You can even get Fusion 360 (Cad) running this way.

It's impressive how far it's come in the last year or two.
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Offline jacethesaltsculptor

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #217 on: Fri, 10 January 2020, 20:02:49 »
So you do have a Mac Pro, hopefully not on the poor desk. Those 4.1/5.1 Macs are boat anchors, well-built, entirely too interesting boat anchors for being made by Apple.

I wish I could fit it on the desk! It's in my other room, and I remote into it and do most of my work on it that way. It conveniently also lets me use the same keyboards as I do for my windows machine.

I'm rather happy about the new Mac Pro, but probably not going to buy one until they are far over the horizon, as that way I'd be able to afford them. I just want a PC like Mac with upgradeability, but Apple isn't so interested.

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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #218 on: Fri, 10 January 2020, 22:58:35 »
So you do have a Mac Pro, hopefully not on the poor desk. Those 4.1/5.1 Macs are boat anchors, well-built, entirely too interesting boat anchors for being made by Apple.

I wish I could fit it on the desk! It's in my other room, and I remote into it and do most of my work on it that way. It conveniently also lets me use the same keyboards as I do for my windows machine.

I'm rather happy about the new Mac Pro, but probably not going to buy one until they are far over the horizon, as that way I'd be able to afford them. I just want a PC like Mac with upgradeability, but Apple isn't so interested.

They're almost big enough to use as the desk, with an extra shelf slapped on for the battlecruiser.

Unfortunately when this system fails, it's bad, like when it purged user files not stored in One Drive or somehow copies over infected files.

That said, I'm with you, fresh install every time. Better to know what you are working with.

... So, M$ fixed the horrendous upgrade install performance issues, yet made it possible for all of your files to be deleted. I would rather it run like trash instead.

I think quite a few would disagree with you, many are starting to think Win10 is getting a bit bloated and slowing down.

Many (all? hopefully?) would be right that Windows 10 is getting bloated and slowing down, just like what happens with every M$ operating system during its supported service life. It is still faster for me than even Windows 7 when I was first trying it in beta, and we both know that the vast majority of people that are running it are running M$' early botched, unsolicited upgrade installs from 7/8, because they don't know any better. It does an especially fantastic job on low-end hardware, hardware I wouldn't even bother to install Windows 7 on and would otherwise go with Lubuntu or something. I do, however disable all of the useless garbage like Cortana and One Drive though, and I hear Cortana has some major performance penalties (I have been too lazy to literally strip the fat out of the installer like I used to do with XP, and get it running like a dream on systems that have half of the minimum requirements).

8 and 10 boot faster because they are not actually booting.
Both by default use fastboot, not not to be confused with bios fast boot. It's using a tweaked standby and not actually shutting
down.

If you want to see an actual cold boot you need either disable fastboot or hold shift the follow the prompts to shut down, this will allow you to actually shut down/restart without it cheating. It's not fair compare the modified standby on Win8/10 to a cold boot on Win7 or Linux install.

Yeah, booting without the hibernation file makes no major difference for me, especially since I notice Windows 10's snappy boots even during restarts, which don't use fast boot/startup anyway. Installing the operating system in BIOS/Legacy mode turns it into molasses though, just like Windows 7. I have seen this across dozens of various computers up to at least 10 years old, and sometimes older (I did manage to even install Windows 10 on a completely unsupported, 2006-vintage Macbook Pro.) and storage devices that also run that same gamut.

Valve dropped SteamOS because it's not needed, Proton and DXVK work fantastic.
Between Steam Proton and Lutris there is very little you can't play with the only real hangup being anti-cheat software. You can even get Fusion 360 (Cad) running this way.

It's impressive how far it's come in the last year or two.

So Proton is just Valve playing with Wine? I hadn't heard of DXVK, that's all interesting and all, and I may look into it, but how do the frames most often compare to the same hardware running native Windows?

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #219 on: Sat, 11 January 2020, 03:27:32 »
Many (all? hopefully?) would be right that Windows 10 is getting bloated and slowing down, just like what happens with every M$ operating system during its supported service life. It is still faster for me than even Windows 7 when I was first trying it in beta, and we both know that the vast majority of people that are running it are running M$' early botched, unsolicited upgrade installs from 7/8, because they don't know any better.
Win10 doesn't suffer age related slowdowns like past systems because every major update (quarterly) it performs a reinstall. It's getting slower due to changes being made to it making it grow. Scary to think how bad it would run without those re-installs.

I'm not so sure Win10 was faster than 7 given fresh installs, but it only took a single bad driver or pretty much just installing Chrome to make 7 slow down enough for 10 to catch up.


Installing the operating system in BIOS/Legacy mode turns it into molasses though, just like Windows 7. I have seen this across dozens of various computers up to at least 10 years old,

There's the rub, Win7 didn't natively support GPT disks and efi, it was a hack to make it work.
10 was designed for EFI but only supports MBR/Bios grudgingly.

Not sure why you think an 06 Macbook (Core2duo) wouldn't run Win10.



So Proton is just Valve playing with Wine? I hadn't heard of DXVK, that's all interesting and all, and I may look into it, but how do the frames most often compare to the same hardware running native Windows?
It's a little slower, it's not perfect, but most stuff is playable, especially if you have a decent system to start with.
Other people are also playing with VM and GPU passthrough, this looks interesting, but meh. Seems like a lot of hassle, most of the time you install Steam, tell it to use Proton for Windows games and click install. Works just like on Windows.

Lutris is a bit more complex, but capable of even more than Steam/Proton.
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #220 on: Sat, 11 January 2020, 22:57:01 »
Win10 doesn't suffer age related slowdowns like past systems because every major update (quarterly) it performs a reinstall. It's getting slower due to changes being made to it making it grow. Scary to think how bad it would run without those re-installs.

I'm not so sure Win10 was faster than 7 given fresh installs, but it only took a single bad driver or pretty much just installing Chrome to make 7 slow down enough for 10 to catch up.

I don't know, my system sped up significantly after a recent fresh reinstall of Windows 10, although I do believe that the SSD I upgraded to was probably faster as well. Cheapy Mushkin to one of the nicer Samsungs. I do still wish M$ would abandon NTFS entirely, and at least clean up how the registry functions.

Windows 10 is definitely significantly faster in my experience than Windows 7, even after having booted completely. Windows 7 has seemed pretty sluggish since the first few major updates, and the only reason it ever seemed all that fast to begin with is it was infinitely better optimized than Vista. I think one thing that probably helped a lot was finally abandoning the dumpster fire that was Windows Aero. That garbage made Vista unusable on launch with every single computer we had, they didn't have nearly enough ram. Windows 7 improved it, but it still always run much better with it disabled, which would really be where your argument against 10's speed might shine. Google Chrome shouldn't even exist. It baffles the mind that they took any market share from Firefox at all, much less take over the market like it has. I say this in spite of the fact that I help maintain thousands of Chromebooks.

There's the rub, Win7 didn't natively support GPT disks and efi, it was a hack to make it work.
10 was designed for EFI but only supports MBR/Bios grudgingly.

Not sure why you think an 06 Macbook (Core2duo) wouldn't run Win10.

I'm aware, that's kind of the point.

There's no practical reason that a Core 2 Duo Macbook Pro couldn't run Windows 10. Apple, in their infinite wisdom, just refused to support it. I literally could not install it without removing the hard drive, putting it into another system, installing Windows 10, then putting the drive back into the Macbook Pro for final setup. Previous versions of Windows, in my experience, would usually flip out about the chipset changing and BSOD. Windows 10 seems a little more resilient in that regard. Once I had installed it, I couldn't even install the few remaining missing drivers without modifying Apple's driver package installer to install regardless of the operating system. Surprise, surprise. Everything worked perfectly in Windows 10, in spite of the roadblocks they put up for no reason. Just like their arbitrary refusal to allow the installation of newer versions of MacOS/OSX on older hardware. Sure, they get lazy as hell and stop writing drivers eventually, but that's rarely a concern, even though they seem to maintain a smaller set of drivers than even a single actual manufacturer of hardware.

I only installed Windows 10 in the first place to see whether or not I could, for kicks and giggles. Doing things that Apple tells me not to is pretty satisfying.

It's a little slower, it's not perfect, but most stuff is playable, especially if you have a decent system to start with.
Other people are also playing with VM and GPU passthrough, this looks interesting, but meh. Seems like a lot of hassle, most of the time you install Steam, tell it to use Proton for Windows games and click install. Works just like on Windows.

Lutris is a bit more complex, but capable of even more than Steam/Proton.

That's that in my mind then, they can try again when they've got all game developers going platform independent or something. Once performance is comparable, if ever, that is when I would consider gaming in Linux. Some games are poorly enough optimized as it is.

Death to DirectX.

Offline el_murdoque

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #221 on: Sat, 08 February 2020, 08:35:58 »
I must say, I recently (the day Bill Gates took his shotgun off the mantelpiece and went with Win7 behind the shed) upgraded from Win7 to Win10.
On my home system, that is. At work, all machines run Ubuntu except for one. We keep that around for our tax office. They run special software that does not come for MacOS or Linux. So it was a Win7 machine until the idiot clerk working on it clicked on the wrong answer when booting up and performed the Win10 upgrade by accident. That machine is used for a day every fortnight. We learned to work with it. Our office has very limited (VERY!) bandwidth and botting up that machine will usually result in the whole network slowing down for hours. So whenever the clerk plans to visit the next day, I get a call in the evening before and switch on that machine before I leave, so it has the whole night to update.
Everyone hates that machine with a certain passion.

At home, I struggled to set up a Win7 dualboot system with my Ubuntu already installed. Not going into details, Win7 would only boot with all the other Harddrives disconnected. So I thought to myself that an upgrade to Win10 will either solve this or make me abandon the idea for good.
I performed the upgrade and everything runs smoothly now.
It runs rather well.
I only installed a browser, anti virus software and Steam - because I do everything else on Ubuntu, only the games that won't run natively under Linux and are buggy through WINE will make me boot windows.
And that dreadful Logitech Software to program my mouse and set the lighting on my keyboard. That's it.
So far, I found about a gazillion things to disable with still more to go, but the system works rather well, no unwanted crashes and no speed issues.
I'd have imagined it a lot worse, especially since that machine at work is acting up that much, but that was an old Win7 that was clogged with software for a million things while my install at home was a virgin Win 7 with absolutely nothing installed.
 


Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #222 on: Sat, 08 February 2020, 16:02:14 »
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #223 on: Sat, 08 February 2020, 17:53:50 »
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.

We've got a lot of systems still running Windows 7 at work. I haven't heard of this happening to them, although I think the network guy is pretty choosy about what updates he allows down the pipe.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #224 on: Sat, 08 February 2020, 18:57:14 »
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.
There is word now that it's actually an Adobe service causing the issue.

Since this sprang up after MS all but stopped releasing updates, my money is that Adobe is actually the problem here. Which if you've worked in the industry isn't the least bit surprising.
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #225 on: Sat, 08 February 2020, 19:20:51 »
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.
There is word now that it's actually an Adobe service causing the issue.

Since this sprang up after MS all but stopped releasing updates, my money is that Adobe is actually the problem here. Which if you've worked in the industry isn't the least bit surprising.

That actually makes complete sense

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #226 on: Sat, 08 February 2020, 19:23:08 »
(trimmed)
Our office has very limited (VERY!) bandwidth and botting up that machine will usually result in the whole network slowing down for hours. So whenever the clerk plans to visit the next day, I get a call in the evening before and switch on that machine before I leave, so it has the whole night to update.
Everyone hates that machine with a certain passion.

At home, I struggled to set up a Win7 dualboot system with my Ubuntu already installed. Not going into details, Win7 would only boot with all the other Harddrives disconnected.

So far, I found about a gazillion things to disable with still more to go, but the system works rather well, no unwanted crashes and no speed issues.
I'd have imagined it a lot worse, especially since that machine at work is acting up that much, but that was an old Win7 that was clogged with software for a million things while my install at home was a virgin Win 7 with absolutely nothing installed.
Expect a call very soon about that computer saying it's either still installing updates or it's stuck in a boot loop. Considering this is a necessary system used only occasionally I HIGHLY recommend you do one of three things, disable updates by any means necessary, rebuild it or replace it. Do it while it's down, NOT when it's an emergency and people are waiting on paychecks. Mark my words, it will happen and if you try and do it prior to failure your boss will probably try and buy time with  "well it can wait until next quarter" you can bet it will fail the month before causing all sorts of hell and it will fall on your shoulders to fix it and you may even get blamed for saying anything.

I recommend replacing it since it's clearly old and on spinning rust which is highly prone to failure after a few years. Turning it off and on only to get updates is actually going to make the problem worse as the drive goes from cold and stopped to spinning up and working hard to install lots of updates (i.e. hot!) then back to a cold idle state. Consistency is key, old spinning disks hate this sort of cycling.

Considering what they use it for, tell your boss to buy a cheap laptop, easy to stick on a shelf while not in use, freeing up a desk and giving you spare parts.


How old is your desktop and were you using GPT partitioning?
Mixing GPT and MSDOS partitions can cause the symptoms you described and Win10 coudl fix that by repartitioning the drive or changing the bios/EFI settings needed. While it fixed this problem, anything post Win7 has this ability as well as modifying the boot record, so while you may setup dual booting with grub Windows will reset your boot order in bios/EFI and remove grub so it boots straight into Windows every time.

Keep track of all those little tweaks you've done, first major update and you will have to do them all again.
Just be careful and don't do them without making sure they're compatible, MS has been known to shift and re-use registry keys for, at least from my perspective, malicious reasons. What used to disable an unwanted feature is now causes the system to not boot. I've seen this twice before I learned my lesson and many corporate techs have also given up chasing constantly changing tweaks.
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Offline Maledicted

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #227 on: Sat, 08 February 2020, 20:16:04 »
Watching my roommate struggle with this bug that won't allow him to reboot or shutdown through Windows, he has to do a hard reset.

MS calls it a 'bug' when we all know it's to frustrate 7 users into making the switch. Why would something like that crop up this far down the road with so much knowledge that's out there about 7? At least TRY to make it less obvious MS.

Has he tried running something like shutdown -f -s -t 0 from the command prompt? If that works he could just slap a batch file on his desktop for the time being.

There is word now that it's actually an Adobe service causing the issue.

Since this sprang up after MS all but stopped releasing updates, my money is that Adobe is actually the problem here. Which if you've worked in the industry isn't the least bit surprising.

Interesting. Which Adobe service in particular? Most of our Windows 7 systems are running an ancient version of Acrobat Pro. Not sure how often they get flash updates, since any self-respecting website no longer uses it, and being a school everybody assumes that photo/video editing MUST be done on $1,500+ Macs, so I don't think any of them are running Illustrator or After Effects.
« Last Edit: Sat, 08 February 2020, 20:27:29 by Maledicted »

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #228 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 16:55:40 »
Got home and saw my comp took updates reset itself. "WTF, I had auto updates explicitly turned off" I thought. Logged into Win 10 only to find my sound completely not working. Nothing was wrong, all drivers were fine, the equalizer showed it was working fine, but still no sound. I then spent literally 1.5 hours trying everything recommended to fix it, but to no avail. Finally I just uninstalled every update from the past 2 days, uninstalled all my audio devices and drivers, reboot and let base drivers install and remove previous updates, and it worked.

Aside from my time wasted, and how angry I got (probably knocked 5 years off my life,) I am more concerned that Win 10 thought it was OK to take updates I specifically told it not to take and reboot on it's own. Not cool.

Never had this issue with Win 7

Offline abrahamstechnology

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #229 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 17:39:38 »
Windows 7 is still working fine on both my Core2duo laptop and my more modern gaming PC with 4th generation i5.
I may get 0patch to patch them.

Offline romevi

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #230 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 18:25:16 »
HECK no. I value my privacy.

I don't want my data mined and transferred to a third party without my prior knowledge.

Offline Skull_Angel

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #231 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 20:07:41 »
HECK no. I value my privacy.

I don't want my data mined and transferred to a third party without my prior knowledge.

Have I got some news for you!...

Seriously though, I want the telemetry gone so it doesn't interfere with online gaming/streaming; I'm still on 7 for DRM games so it doesn't effect me, but friends with basic internet can't play some new games on 10 because of random connection based hangs/drops. I've already ruled out hardware and settings for a number of them since they're close by, but it's ridiculous when you can't use an alternative OS because DRM configurations and the supported OS has the ability to interfere with your experience.

The update system is just a whole other can of worms that needs to be killed off.

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #232 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 20:22:50 »
Seriously though, I want the telemetry gone so it doesn't interfere with online gaming/streaming; I'm still on 7 for DRM games so it doesn't effect me, but friends with basic internet can't play some new games on 10 because of random connection based hangs/drops. I've already ruled out hardware and settings for a number of them since they're close by, but it's ridiculous when you can't use an alternative OS because DRM configurations and the supported OS has the ability to interfere with your experience.

The update system is just a whole other can of worms that needs to be killed off.

Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update. 

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #233 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 21:07:43 »
Interesting. Which Adobe service in particular? Most of our Windows 7 systems are running an ancient version of Acrobat Pro. Not sure how often they get flash updates, since any self-respecting website no longer uses it, and being a school everybody assumes that photo/video editing MUST be done on $1,500+ Macs, so I don't think any of them are running Illustrator or After Effects.
Pretty sure I answered this but I'm not seeing it. Anyhow, it was drm or CC, I didn't go digging too deep.


Got home and saw my comp took updates reset itself. "WTF, I had auto updates explicitly turned off" I thought. Logged into Win 10 only to find my sound completely not working. Nothing was wrong, all drivers were fine, the equalizer showed it was working fine, but still no sound. I then spent literally 1.5 hours trying everything recommended to fix it, but to no avail. Finally I just uninstalled every update from the past 2 days, uninstalled all my audio devices and drivers, reboot and let base drivers install and remove previous updates, and it worked.

Aside from my time wasted, and how angry I got (probably knocked 5 years off my life,) I am more concerned that Win 10 thought it was OK to take updates I specifically told it not to take and reboot on it's own. Not cool.

Never had this issue with Win 7
I did similar the other day, checked cords, drivers, restarting, checking services... spent almost an hour only to find I had bumped a volume knob. HAHA

Win10 does what it wants.
You can delay updates but not disable (O&O shutup 10 will disable it completely).
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #234 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 21:23:17 »

my sound completely not working. Nothing was wrong, all drivers were fine, the equalizer showed it was working fine, but still no sound.

spent almost an hour only to find I had bumped a volume knob.


Just this afternoon I listened to a favorite album, loud and no problems, but then I decided to to swap the L-R rear channels (Logitech 5.1 running on a Creative X-Fi elite card) by unplugging and re-plugging the 2 wires on the back of the Logitech sub, and ended up with a dead silent system.

Tried everything, including re-installing the drivers, and Windows keeps telling me that there is nothing plugged in. I have fiddled with every wire connection multiple times.

Too tired to do anything else tonight, tomorrow I suppose that I will have to crack open the case and re-seat the sound card itself. What a pain! This hardware setup is great except that it seems like I have to go through this exercise every couple of years, and it is always a problem because I have a tight space and a nightmare of wires in the back!


 
The difference in characterization of crime and who commits it skews what criminality looks like demographically. "What we're seeing so far is very similar to the process that we see with Islamic violent Jihad radicalization," said former FBI Assistant Director Frank Figliuzzi, "This wanting to belong to a cause greater than yourself, wanting to get affirmation from a group who may not even know who you are or ever met you. And then feeling like you're part of this deployment, this cause. You heard him say on the clip 'It's my job to protect this.'
No, it's not your job. But you think it is. And video last night shows him walking around roaming around with the assault rifle not really doing much of protecting anything." Figliuzzi made it clear that calling these characters "troubled" is a misnomer. "I would assert," Figliuzzi continued. "that it's time we stopped using the word ‘troubled’ with regard to white young people who act out like this and start thinking about the radicalized term that we used when people of color or people of Islamic faith act out like this. This is a radicalization process that's happening. It happened with the El Paso shooter in Texas. We kept hearing he was troubled. No, he was radicalized. And it's happening online."

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #235 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 21:27:23 »
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update.
There are some lists with the updates to remove, some however contain actual patches you may want though, forcing you to chose updates or telemetry.


Seriously though, I want the telemetry gone so it doesn't interfere with online gaming/streaming; I'm still on 7 for DRM games so it doesn't effect me, but friends with basic internet can't play some new games on 10 because of random connection based hangs/drops. I've already ruled out hardware and settings for a number of them since they're close by, but it's ridiculous when you can't use an alternative OS because DRM configurations and the supported OS has the ability to interfere with your experience.
If that is a recent thing, MS was routing data through a 3rd party (the privacy issues just get better and better don't they?) and they went down.

If it's been going on a while, I'd question their networks and what all is on them. The Windows update system can cause a LOT of network traffic flooding out systems, particularly if they're on wifi or 10/100.
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Offline Skull_Angel

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #236 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 06:44:51 »
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update. 

Can't install telemetry if it can't update! My DRM gaming drive is an old clean build of the "no update since packages dropped" experiment I've been running. Still no hickups  :thumb:

If that is a recent thing, MS was routing data through a 3rd party (the privacy issues just get better and better don't they?) and they went down.

If it's been going on a while, I'd question their networks and what all is on them. The Windows update system can cause a LOT of network traffic flooding out systems, particularly if they're on wifi or 10/100.

It's been ongoing the past year. I've tried thoroughly testing their networks and one of them is definitely part of the issue (basic package and using wifi from the all-in-one...), but the other two are mysteries I can only point at 10; most of their hickups seem to co-inside with what look to be MS pings. I suggested blocking it though their routers, but no one wants to deal with that  :-X

Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #237 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 08:39:38 »
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update.
There are some lists with the updates to remove, some however contain actual patches you may want though, forcing you to chose updates or telemetry.


People would drop windows SO HARD, like tomorrow,  if they'd just get linux gaming working.

Offline Sintpinty

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #238 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 13:19:11 »
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update.
There are some lists with the updates to remove, some however contain actual patches you may want though, forcing you to chose updates or telemetry.


People would drop windows SO HARD, like tomorrow,  if they'd just get linux gaming working.


Same

Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #239 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 13:43:07 »
Win 7 has telemetry now to almost the same extent as win 10, it was part of the update.
There are some lists with the updates to remove, some however contain actual patches you may want though, forcing you to chose updates or telemetry.


People would drop windows SO HARD, like tomorrow,  if they'd just get linux gaming working.


Linux is a pain in the ass, I wouldn't call it user-friendly at all.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #240 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 20:29:43 »
Can't install telemetry if it can't update! My DRM gaming drive is an old clean build of the "no update since packages dropped" experiment I've been running. Still no hickups  :thumb:

MS spent MONTHS slowly rolling out bits and parts of it.
Here's an older, partial list that includes some optional /questionable ones.
More
kb:971033, kb:2505438,kb:2670838, kb:2882822, kb:2902907, kb:2952664, kb:2976978, kb:2977759, kb:2990214, kb:3012973, kb:3015249, kb:3021917, kb:3022345, kb:3035583, kb3042058, kb:3044374, kb:3050265, kb:3050267, kb:3064683, kb:3065987, kb:3065988, kb:3068708, kb:3072318, kb:3074677, kb:3075249, kb:3075851, kb:3075853, kb:3078667, kb3080149, kb:3081437, kb:3081454, kb:3081954, kb:3083324, kb:3083325, kb:3083710, kb:3083711, kb:3086255, kb:3088195, kb:3090045, kb:3093983, kb:3102810, kb:3102812, kb3107998



It's been ongoing the past year. I've tried thoroughly testing their networks and one of them is definitely part of the issue (basic package and using wifi from the all-in-one...), but the other two are mysteries I can only point at 10; most of their hickups seem to co-inside with what look to be MS pings. I suggested blocking it though their routers, but no one wants to deal with that  :-X
10 phones home but also uses something akin to torrent to share updates between all systems on the network. Horrible system in terms of overhead.

I had a small office using 10/100 hardwired connections which worked fine even with voip for all their phones, but as soon as a handful switched to Win10 it became a boggy bloated mess. They replaced the router thinking it was the issue, then they replaced the modem and upped the cable speed, both had almost no impact, then they called me (I could have told them neither was the issue). I checked the network and realized it had a 10/100 switch and with the data they moved and prices I installed a gigabit router which helped some. I then put bandwidth limits in the router, that too helped but only a tiny bit and ended up slowing speeds when the office was slow.

Later while doing some work l found that the the laptops they purchased (at my recommendation) were not gigabit (deceptive marketing) and even if the laptops/desktops were, the VOIP system piggybacked the network connection and those, which they got cheap were also 10/100 so even if we used usb gigabit adapters and got them up to half gigabit the phone would take them back to 100. It took a lot of work to get them to understand the only fix was new phones and laptops, unfortunately the owner is the very definition of a miser so he drug his heels. And if you think that was tough, try getting him to spend a bit extra for an ssd...

It always amazes me how short sighted some "smart" business people are when it comes to where they put their money, this place relied on computers and yet they always bought cheap and more than they needed because they knew they would fail (1 spare for every 3 people!). Time is money and they will complain when an employee spends 30 seconds checking Facebook or a few minutes in the bathroom but it's fine to wait 5 minutes for a system boot every morning. 
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #241 on: Fri, 14 February 2020, 20:53:27 »
People would drop windows SO HARD, like tomorrow,  if they'd just get linux gaming working.
You can get almost anything but AAA titles working at this point, I expect to be playing Borderlands 3 shortly after it hits Steam

Typically it's not going to be AS good because it's not native, but it's pretty darn good, some even appear to run better due to less overhead and better multi-core performance if it's CPU heavy (like GTA).


Linux is a pain in the ass, I wouldn't call it user-friendly at all.
It's not, it's just different.
You've spent how long learning and coming to understand Windows, you can't expect to be that proficient with Linux or even Mac right out of the gate.

Worse, the longer you've been on Windows the harder it is.
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Offline Surefoot

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #242 on: Sat, 15 February 2020, 02:37:36 »
Just installed a fresh windows 10 for a friends computer, i can say it takes a lot longer and is now more difficult than getting Ubuntu on it (we did install it first to test hardware)...
So YMMV of course but user friendliness is subjective, and there are some cold hard measurements we can do like the insane amount of reboots that windows still performs, the aggressive personal data collection, or the way it tries to shove Edge browser and Bing just everywhere it can. Or even installing nvidia drivers.. these were just a checkbox on Ubuntu.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #243 on: Sat, 15 February 2020, 03:08:05 »
Or even installing nvidia drivers.. these were just a checkbox on Ubuntu.
So much this.

Want to game? try Pop!
It already has the latest drivers, kernel and I believe even DXVK (direct x equivalent), you pretty much just check a box to install Steam and start installing your games just like Steam in Windows. It's actually easier than windows, you don't have to go to the Steam website.

And that's just some of it.
Some of your Windows software auto updates, but much of it has separate programs to do so, take Chrome for instance, it loads up two services just to maintain Chrome. Firefox does it automatically in the background but others you need to manually tell it to update or even go to the website and download the update then manually install it. Linux, I click an icon, tell it to update and everything updates. In seconds.

I'm not saying Linux is perfect, it takes time to adapt, and like I said, the longer you use Windows the harder it is, and if you dual boot, you only delay the process more because you just keep reverting instead of learning how to do it. This is why Mac users adapt "easy", they have no choice, they throw themselves into the deep end and learn to swim. While it's great to dip your toes and get your feet wet,  at some point you either have to commit or be happy with just a wet foot. A wet foot is not swimming, I dual booted with Linux doing almost everything for 6 months, when I made the jump, I learned more in a week than I did in the last 6 months.
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Offline Skull_Angel

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #244 on: Sat, 15 February 2020, 04:29:39 »

MS spent MONTHS slowly rolling out bits and parts of it.
Here's an older, partial list that includes some optional /questionable ones.
More
kb:971033, kb:2505438,kb:2670838, kb:2882822, kb:2902907, kb:2952664, kb:2976978, kb:2977759, kb:2990214, kb:3012973, kb:3015249, kb:3021917, kb:3022345, kb:3035583, kb3042058, kb:3044374, kb:3050265, kb:3050267, kb:3064683, kb:3065987, kb:3065988, kb:3068708, kb:3072318, kb:3074677, kb:3075249, kb:3075851, kb:3075853, kb:3078667, kb3080149, kb:3081437, kb:3081454, kb:3081954, kb:3083324, kb:3083325, kb:3083710, kb:3083711, kb:3086255, kb:3088195, kb:3090045, kb:3093983, kb:3102810, kb:3102812, kb3107998



10 phones home but also uses something akin to torrent to share updates between all systems on the network. Horrible system in terms of overhead.

I had a small office using 10/100 hardwired connections which worked fine even with voip for all their phones, but as soon as a handful switched to Win10 it became a boggy bloated mess. They replaced the router thinking it was the issue, then they replaced the modem and upped the cable speed, both had almost no impact, then they called me (I could have told them neither was the issue). I checked the network and realized it had a 10/100 switch and with the data they moved and prices I installed a gigabit router which helped some. I then put bandwidth limits in the router, that too helped but only a tiny bit and ended up slowing speeds when the office was slow.

Later while doing some work l found that the the laptops they purchased (at my recommendation) were not gigabit (deceptive marketing) and even if the laptops/desktops were, the VOIP system piggybacked the network connection and those, which they got cheap were also 10/100 so even if we used usb gigabit adapters and got them up to half gigabit the phone would take them back to 100. It took a lot of work to get them to understand the only fix was new phones and laptops, unfortunately the owner is the very definition of a miser so he drug his heels. And if you think that was tough, try getting him to spend a bit extra for an ssd...

It always amazes me how short sighted some "smart" business people are when it comes to where they put their money, this place relied on computers and yet they always bought cheap and more than they needed because they knew they would fail (1 spare for every 3 people!). Time is money and they will complain when an employee spends 30 seconds checking Facebook or a few minutes in the bathroom but it's fine to wait 5 minutes for a system boot every morning. 

The clean clone was put together when they started with their package updates. Researched those singles beforehand as well, so it's probably as clean as it'll get (it runs pretty slick and no network issues, so I'm happy).

Ah god, I bet the business owner was gnawing his fingernails for a while with all that, haha.

Or even installing nvidia drivers.. these were just a checkbox on Ubuntu.
So much this.

Want to game? try Pop!
It already has the latest drivers, kernel and I believe even DXVK (direct x equivalent), you pretty much just check a box to install Steam and start installing your games just like Steam in Windows. It's actually easier than windows, you don't have to go to the Steam website.

And that's just some of it.
Some of your Windows software auto updates, but much of it has separate programs to do so, take Chrome for instance, it loads up two services just to maintain Chrome. Firefox does it automatically in the background but others you need to manually tell it to update or even go to the website and download the update then manually install it. Linux, I click an icon, tell it to update and everything updates. In seconds.

I'm not saying Linux is perfect, it takes time to adapt, and like I said, the longer you use Windows the harder it is, and if you dual boot, you only delay the process more because you just keep reverting instead of learning how to do it. This is why Mac users adapt "easy", they have no choice, they throw themselves into the deep end and learn to swim. While it's great to dip your toes and get your feet wet,  at some point you either have to commit or be happy with just a wet foot. A wet foot is not swimming, I dual booted with Linux doing almost everything for 6 months, when I made the jump, I learned more in a week than I did in the last 6 months.

I'll add to that and say give Solus a try too. They finally dropped a new package so it's ready to go for new hardware. Some long time linux users call it boring, but I like that about it (not enough time to **** around just to get things going any more, I like it when things just work, haha). It's just simple to get running and I haven't had any real issues with mostly using the GUI to do anything.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #245 on: Sat, 15 February 2020, 05:32:33 »
Some long time linux users call it boring, but I like that about it (not enough time to **** around just to get things going any more, I like it when things just work, haha). It's just simple to get running and I haven't had any real issues with mostly using the GUI to do anything.

Funny you say that, Linux was the first and only OS I actually got bored with.

With Windows there was always something new to try, to fix, download, clean, update... It's constantly evolving and changing. Once I found my preferred distro, it just runs. It's great, but boring.
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Offline noisyturtle

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #246 on: Sun, 16 February 2020, 06:14:34 »
Microsoft, Nvidia, Realtek, and more all with bad updates this week. Tis the season for rollbacks I guess.

Offline Skull_Angel

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #247 on: Sun, 16 February 2020, 16:43:50 »
Microsoft, Nvidia, Realtek, and more all with bad updates this week. Tis the season for rollbacks I guess.

With these three in particular, I'm just at the point of "If it works fine why update it?". Not sure how old my Realtek driver is, but Nvidia is still on 431.60 since it's the most stable driver to date.

I'm seriously not sure what I'll do when I get around to building a new system and put together a Windows 10 drive for DRM gaming at this point. It'll be one of those things I poke with a stick to make sure it won't explode every time I boot it, hahaha.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #248 on: Sun, 16 February 2020, 19:22:46 »
At minimum, use O&OShutup10, that will allow you to control/disable updates.

Best case, use Enterprise or better still, Enterprise LTSC.
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Offline Leslieann

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Re: Do you use Win10 and if so, why?
« Reply #249 on: Sun, 23 February 2020, 18:42:39 »
Okay, can anyone explain why, through social media, that I would want to share or Rate and Review the camera app in Win10? Or any other built in app?

I would say it's a generic thing that all apps get, but they don't. Regardless, who even thought doing that from the start menu was a good idea? Who in their right minds looked at the start menu and though "I really want to post that on Facebook!" Sometimes the disconnect between MS (and marketers for that matter) and people just blows my mind.

"Look, we can be social, too!!"
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