Author Topic: Who owns a colorway?  (Read 60995 times)

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Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #100 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 11:54:04 »
Does anyone know of a keycap set that tanked during the interest check phase solely because its colorway was the same as a pre-existing set?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=77999.0;topicseen

It went to GB phase but was then put on hold.

What was the backlash for? Being a newbie at group buys or copying a colorway?

Offline Steezus

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #101 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 11:55:13 »
Does anyone know of a keycap set that tanked during the interest check phase solely because its colorway was the same as a pre-existing set?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=77999.0;topicseen

It went to GB phase but was then put on hold.

What was the backlash?

That is had a lot of similarities to Calm Depths, and a little bit of skepticism that the set is being ran from a new member and not a 3rd party.

Offline Zambumon

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #102 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 12:13:30 »
Does anyone know of a keycap set that tanked during the interest check phase solely because its colorway was the same as a pre-existing set?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=77999.0;topicseen

It went to GB phase but was then put on hold.

Ignoring the color scheme issues, that set went to the GB stage with major mistakes that should have been fixed during the IC stage…

  • ISO kit didn't have a 1.25 Shift
  • Listing 6.5 Space bars when they aren't manufactured
  • Tsangan features a 1.25U shift and 1.75U but no 2.25U shift, which is weird.

In addition, there wasn't a list of the people who ordered the set, or a price list indicating how many kits of each child deal had been ordered.
For reference:
Source A
Source B

Offline Steezus

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #103 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 12:54:16 »
Does anyone know of a keycap set that tanked during the interest check phase solely because its colorway was the same as a pre-existing set?

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=77999.0;topicseen

It went to GB phase but was then put on hold.

Ignoring the color scheme issues, that set went to the GB stage with major mistakes that should have been fixed during the IC stage…

  • ISO kit didn't have a 1.25 Shift
  • Listing 6.5 Space bars when they aren't manufactured
  • Tsangan features a 1.25U shift and 1.75U but no 2.25U shift, which is weird.

In addition, there wasn't a list of the people who ordered the set, or a price list indicating how many kits of each child deal had been ordered.
For reference:
Source A
Source B

Oh yeah I agree that there was multiple issues but the color scheme was one that was brought up in the thread quite frequently.

Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #104 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 13:09:55 »
From what I can tell, the Dusk set was put on hold because people didn't feel comfortable placing orders with a first-time designer trying to run the GB himself without a trusted middle-man entity like MassDrop. There was also a lot of eleventh-hour disatisfaction with the kit compositions. The only serious objection to colorway similarity came from MiTo. And most everyone else agreed that his objections were unfounded.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #105 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 13:17:12 »
SP does have the last word but, given their lack of concern with producing Space Cadet twice, both of which were from community sources, not to mention multiple other classic set runs, I've yet to see anything stating explicitly that sets are protected and what those protections are.

They have produced sets with plenty of similarities to each other so I remain skeptical that any colorway protection is offered at all should someone else submit a request.

Offline Steezus

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #106 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 13:18:19 »
SP does have the last word but, given their lack of concern with producing Space Cadet twice, both of which were from community sources, not to mention multiple other classic set runs, I've yet to see anything stating explicitly that sets are protected and what those protections are.

They have produced sets with plenty of similarities to each other so I remain skeptical that any colorway protection is offered at all should someone else submit a request.

To be honest, I don't really think SP cares at all and would rather just take the extra money. There's really no benefit for them shutting down sets where interest was expressed.

Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #107 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 13:51:00 »
SP does have the last word but, given their lack of concern with producing Space Cadet twice, both of which were from community sources, not to mention multiple other classic set runs, I've yet to see anything stating explicitly that sets are protected and what those protections are.

They have produced sets with plenty of similarities to each other so I remain skeptical that any colorway protection is offered at all should someone else submit a request.

I'm just not convinced that we have seen a compelling test case yet. Sets like Symbiosis, Space Cadet, and Dolch have origins that pre-date the modern keycap phenomenon, so designers of sets like those aren't going to be accorded any sense of ownership by SP. However, just wait until someone other than Matt3o tries to use the Skull Squadron colorway for another set, even without any novelties. How much do you want to bet it would never get past SP's gatekeepers?

Offline Lepidus

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #108 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 13:56:09 »
SP does have the last word but, given their lack of concern with producing Space Cadet twice, both of which were from community sources, not to mention multiple other classic set runs, I've yet to see anything stating explicitly that sets are protected and what those protections are.

They have produced sets with plenty of similarities to each other so I remain skeptical that any colorway protection is offered at all should someone else submit a request.

I'm just not convinced that we have seen a compelling test case yet. Sets like Symbiosis, Space Cadet, and Dolch have origins that pre-date the modern keycap phenomenon, so designers of sets like those aren't going to be accorded any sense of ownership by SP. However, just wait until someone other than Matt3o tries to use the Skull Squadron colorway for another set, even without any novelties. How much do you want to bet it would never get past SP's gatekeepers?

As I mentioned before, SP has no problem offering a DSA dyesub set with the same colors and the same font as granite.

Have they ever actually stoped any sets from being produced by this reason?
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:00:13 by Lepidus »

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #109 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:09:31 »
My take on the matter.

(I designed that silly little Jukebox SA set, just for reference)

My personal opinion is that copying a set 1:1 color wise, would be wrong. I'm quite sure SP wouldn't even allow this, so that is really a non-issue.

For other sets, I think the community generally does a good job of watching out for the designers. The biggest point I'd like to make for new designers is simply talk to a designer if you think your set is too close for comfort. I personally know quite a few designers that would be more than happy to "OK" the design, if not even just jump in and help out. If a set uses different colors, but looks similar, eh, what can you do? I mean, there is nothing preventing closely related shades from being used. The community may step in here, but in general this would just be far, far to messy to police with a legal system.

I generally just put my trust in the goodwill of the community, for better or worse  :thumb:
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Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #110 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:15:20 »
As I mentioned before, SP has no problem offering a DSA dyesub set with the same colors and the same font as granite.

Have they ever actually stoped any sets from being produced by this reason?

Which dyesub set does SP offer that uses Granite's typeface?

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #111 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:18:13 »
(I designed that silly little Jukebox SA set, just for reference)

Currently using Jukebox. Can confirm: is silly.

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #112 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:20:26 »
(I designed that silly little Jukebox SA set, just for reference)

Currently using Jukebox. Can confirm: is silly.

 :-*  :cool:
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Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #113 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:21:38 »
At the very end of the day, say someone did copy my set, oh well. I'm not doing sets for the money anyways. Other people may, but it makes the stress of this subject way more lax for me simply because I just enjoy doing things the community enjoys and gets use out of, even when that may be having a keycap set that will make it look like a 50's Bel Air took a **** on your keyboard   :))
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Offline xondat

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #114 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:31:33 »
I agree 100% with you livingspeedbump.

Here is my serious, no ****post opinion:

1 to 1 copy is unacceptable and will be stopped anyway. Close 'copies', 'replicas', 'knockoffs' & so on will be stopped if the community as a whole disagree - but if they aren't that close and look like a different set then the creator won't be stopped. Only the manufacturer can stop it.

Artisans have been copied, kind of the same thing if a creator considers a keyset as their art. Color on it's own, when similar, are fine. Copying 'custom' logos etc are unacceptable without the original creators permission.

Politics, legal stuff and ****ty behaviour will just create more cow.

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #115 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:44:38 »
I agree 100% with you livingspeedbump.

Here is my serious, no ****post opinion:

1 to 1 copy is unacceptable and will be stopped anyway. Close 'copies', 'replicas', 'knockoffs' & so on will be stopped if the community as a whole disagree - but if they aren't that close and look like a different set then the creator won't be stopped. Only the manufacturer can stop it.

Artisans have been copied, kind of the same thing if a creator considers a keyset as their art. Color on it's own, when similar, are fine. Copying 'custom' logos etc are unacceptable without the original creators permission.

Politics, legal stuff and ****ty behaviour will just create more cow.

Amen to that last part. So many people don't understand that yet.

The two sets of Space Cadet are a decent example of a very similar set. In the end even that was justified imo though, as one was more of a colorway replica, and the other tried to be a much more replica of the original caps on the keyboard. When it comes to remaking vintage colorways like that, i really don't think anyone should "own" those colors. They were already done, so unless you want to pay all the royalties to the company that made the original, just go with it.

Im also a huge advocate for making sets as readily available as possible. Sure, I don't have Jukebox in the PMK store right now, but that is only because it is about to ramp up for another MD buy, and I simply want more buyers in that for the sake of the buyers, because it will make it cheaper for everyone and help fund the new kits. If i never planned to add on any more new kits for it, I'd probably just give my OK for SP to make it whenever they want. In fact, Im working on a very simple set, with some nice common colors, for SP to do just that with, so hopefully everyone can get a decent looking kit for any keyboard, including odd layouts, whenever they need. I have no interest in making any of my sets exclusive or rare simply by not running them when there is a desire for them.

Again, its all about "what can i do for the community?" for me, as a designer.
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Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #116 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:45:41 »
The community will ultimately vote with their wallets. If they don't like a set, for any reason, it won't get past the IC stage. Of course, a set that copies everything, except say for novelties, and gets past MassDrop's standards for "originality"--whatever they may be--could easily garner enough interest from the legions of uninitiated members who buy from them but don't patrol the forums.

Whether or not SP would put a halt to it on their own is still an open question. And I don't think SP wants to state one way or the other in a forum because they probably want the flexibility to judge on a case by case basis and not be held to something written in a public post.

I'm glad that hippo's Dusk set didn't get shot down on the basis of its colorway. I liked its color scheme better than Calm Depths, and would have been disappointed to see the community kill it because it merely reminded them of another set.

Offline Bucky

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #117 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:46:40 »
I feel like this is a difficult but important topic.

To me I totally can get on board with someone not being able to exactly copy a set, lets say PuLSE. If someone were to try to get the same colors produced in SA by signature plastics I think it would be best that the set is not created.

To me however being a similar inspiration of colors certainly shouldn't limit a set from being produced. If we were discussing strictly the colors of Dusk I think its absurd to say it shouldn't be produced because of similarities to Calm Depths. The colors are not the same, and the inversion of the colors in itself is a significant difference. To me if Dusk is too similar to CD then it will not be long before most new sets bear too much similarity to something already existing.

Copying is a bad thing, being inspired by is totally OK within art. MiTo even says that he used some icons to inspire making his own, yet when a keyset takes inspiration from another set it shouldn't get created? I just don't see the logic in this at all.

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #118 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:48:59 »
I agree 100% with you livingspeedbump.


1 to 1 copy is unacceptable and will be stopped anyway. Close 'copies', 'replicas', 'knockoffs' & so on will be stopped if the community as a whole disagree - but if they aren't that close and look like a different set then the creator won't be stopped. Only the manufacturer can stop it.

On this, in reference to artisans as well, I feel like if someone is really ****ty enough to make a replica of a set/artisan/whatever, where legal action can possibly be taken, making a HUGE deal about it will really only benefit the person doing the replicas by given then both acknowledgement and publicity. It truly boggles my mind how some people really cant seem to grasp this, and just continue to follow that rabbit into the never ending hole.

Should i ever need to take legal action (which i cant even see a situation with keyboards what that could actually happen for me) It would all be handled off the forums. That would be REAL business and not something i would make a public affair minus perhaps one comment to let users know I was dealing with it somehow.
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Offline xondat

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #119 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:56:16 »
Oh btw, when I was ****posting, I made a BFQ/NN colorway set; turns out it's already being done: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=78550

It's reverse Pulse with slightly different colors and I've never seen Ricardo mention it.

Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #120 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 15:06:49 »

Since you mentioned I'd like to give my input towards this subject, even though you asked OP and not me.

Taking PuLSE as an example, it featured black/cyan text legended alphas and modifiers with Signature Plastics' font. It also featured aqua and blue novelty keycaps with specific and customized icons. Any other sets that eventually present any of the above mentioned features is essentially (and consequentially) copying PuLSE and the concepts that define it as a custom keyset created by myself and therefore should not go through their system nor be allowed to happen without my strict permission. The premise is that such colorway, applied on keycaps created and manufactured by Signature Plastics is a design concept that I created. This logic obviously can't be applied to complex industrial manufactured products, due to their very detailed patent registration nature, but since we are discussing about a product that is defined by it's artistic appeal and belongs to a very specific niche (keyboard enthusiasts), such logic could be easily comprehended and be applied in my perception.

This is my perspective and I believe it should be taken into consideration given that, for many reasons, me and the Ctrl.Alt team are in the eye of this discussion. Mostly due to the popularity of projects created by us before new implementations and policies from Signature Plastics took place.


Perhaps I should have mentioned BBQ/NN instead of Aqua-Cyan/Black?

Because when I speak about colorway protection, I'm speaking directly about 1:1 replications. I don't have absolutely any problems with Keyboard & Co. (even though it looks like PuLSE inverted), for example. My problem with Dusk was that the keyset wasn't nowhere near an original or creative idea, but a very close 1:1 partially done and bad presented replication of Calm Depths, as the guy didn't even create mockups for child deals but used the layout generator instead. I felt the same way with Classic Space's similarities with Cospar, but as you can see on it's thread it was all solved after some explanations and conversations between me and it's makers. Despite of what many of you think, keyset designers indeed create and apply design concepts and they put effort into that. Some people design novelties from scratch, others use existing icons and others mix these two things. I'm on the latter group. There is a complex thought process behind keyset planing and people who put effort into that deserve at least some respect. Should people be able to replicate whatever set they want without any rules? What kind of anarchy is that, of course not.

Therefore, protection by Signature Plastics is something that all of you should understand at the very least.



Offline Bucky

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #121 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 15:29:58 »
Perhaps I should have mentioned BBQ/NN instead of Aqua-Cyan/Black?

Because when I speak about colorway protection, I'm speaking directly about 1:1 replications. I don't have absolutely any problems with Keyboard & Co. (even though it looks like PuLSE inverted), for example. My problem with Dusk was that the keyset wasn't nowhere near an original or creative idea, but a very close 1:1 partially done and bad presented replication of Calm Depths...

This is where I guess I don't see the line you are drawing. You say you only are against 1:1 replication, but then your complaint about Dusk (in terms of design only) is that its not original or creative? I don't see how that matters. I like your keysets, I just don't understand what your actual stance is on this really (I understand English isn't your first language making it more difficult) as you basically give 2 conflicting opinions here.

Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #122 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 15:37:27 »
MiTo reminds me a little of Disney. Disney gleefully and shamelessly mines the public domain works of past masters, like Alexandre Dumas, while seeing to it that nothing they create ever falls into the public domain, where I contend anything of real cultural importance belongs at some point.

I think that no matter how absurd the notion of "colorway ownership" actually is, it will be granted to those designers who are in favor with the community (Matt3o, for example), and denied to those who aren't. There will be little consistency to the matter because there is nothing formal or legal about such granted ownership.

Lots of proposed sets will die in IC for a variety of reasons, with colorway similarity being only one of them. And colorway similarity won't be the only silly reason a proposed set will get shot down either. One thing I am learning is that the process of getting community approval for a new set is almost Kafka-esque, and that navigating through all the potential (political) pitfalls is perhaps the hardest part of it (not the actual design work).

Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #123 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 15:43:40 »
I believe that some people care about that, otherwise we would had Penumbra 2 made by somebody else instead of Ctrl.Alt. Note that the set doesn't have graphic novelties and it's a pure combination of colors and legends (and one of the most likable ones, since the set is pretty popular). It's a very well made set and I don't think it should be reproduced by anyone other than Ctrl.Alt. One can be lead to believe that Godspeed/Cospar is a set that resembles Penumbra, but so does Jukebox with it's beige accents. Jukebox however has its own theme (like Godspeed/Cospar) and therefore is a completely different project. Note that none of the sets share color chips, if you are speaking about manufacturing.

I speak about the "line" you're talking in this reply.

But since I don't think it was enough to make my point, check this out:

Three sets currently exist on beige tones. Penumbra, Jukebox and Godspeed. Do they share color chips?

No.

Alright, this is good. Does each one have its particular theme which is completely independent from each other?

Yes, one is a coding color scheme, the other one is a tribute to the 50's dinners and the last one is a tribute to NASA.

Are these sets original ideas, I mean, does the maker put minimal effort into finding a theme, nice legends and colors, and also a background story and decent presentation?

Yes.

Then good, all of these sets are independent and should go forward.

This obviuosuly is an extremely arbitrary judgement, which I highly doubt others share with me, but since you asked, it's what I think.




Offline wilarseny

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #124 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 15:44:11 »
Should people be able to replicate whatever set they want without any rules? What kind of anarchy is that, of course not.

I know, right? Why can't people grasp that the world economy would COLLAPSE if we let people replicate color schemes. It would be absolute ANARCHY! The keycap market would be in SHAMBLES. I'm not being HYPERBOLIC at all.

Signature plastics can have whatever rules it wants as a private producer. Keep in mind that their interests may not necessarily align with either keycap designers, consumers, or forum shouters. SP's thinking might go something like: if we let people do reruns, then future keycap makers will go with GMK/JTK/whoever else next time, instead of us. Pretending that their "protection" is some pure, altruistic ideological thing is just fantasy. SP is in the injection molding plastic business, and will continue to make business decisions as they see fit. See LSB's Jukebox motivations for another example.

Agreed with everything zslane has said in this thread. Smart dude. I'm still just a baby lawyer but I agree with his analysis on the IP issues.

No one is disagreeing with the general point that keycap designers put effort into designing sets. The question is whether we should allow that effort--which in some cases may be relatively minimal, or may include simple copying of designs like leaves and globes from other creators with only retroactive attempts at getting permission--to dictate whether future buyers and future sellers are allowed to do their thing when there's interest on both sides. And I don't really see a compelling reason why the creator's interest should extend any further than "I made this thing and on the initial buy I'm making the ultimate call on child deals, novelties, etc". The best argument you can probably make is that reruns sap the community's interest in new sets, so if we were running Pulse/Calm Depths/Penumbra all the time no new sets would get into the queue. I think this probably held more true a couple years ago than it does now -- tons and tons of GBs are getting produced every year, through GMK/SP/JTK/etc, and the community's still growing. Maybe at the margins some sets would fail to meet MOQ but I don't necessarily understand why we'd want to protect lower-interest sets out there when lots of people would love Penumbra R2, Calm Depths R2, etc.

Ultimately we are debating how to make and distribute little colored plastic bits to people who want them. I know it's a futile cry here, but please try to keep some perspective about what this hobby is.
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 January 2016, 15:45:55 by wilarseny »

Offline wilarseny

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #125 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 15:45:07 »

This obviuosuly is an extremely arbitrary judgement, which I highly doubt others share with me, but since you asked, it's what I think.

As long as you recognize this is your own opinion and that you don't automatically speak for the whole community by virtue of having produced a couple sets, no problems on this end.

Offline mashby

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #126 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 15:50:51 »
MiTo reminds me a little of Disney. Disney gleefully and shamelessly mines the public domain works of past masters, like Alexandre Dumas, while seeing to it that nothing they create ever falls into the public domain, where I contend anything of real cultural importance belongs at some point.

I think that no matter how absurd the notion of "colorway ownership" actually is, it will be granted to those designers who are in favor with the community (Matt3o, for example), and denied to those who aren't. There will be little consistency to the matter because there is nothing formal or legal about such granted ownership.

Lots of proposed sets will die in IC for a variety of reasons, with colorway similarity being only one of them. And colorway similarity won't be the only silly reason a proposed set will get shot down either. One thing I am learning is that the process of getting community approval for a new set is almost Kafka-esque, and that navigating through all the potential (political) pitfalls is perhaps the hardest part of it (not the actual design work).

Well said zslane. I haven't read the entire thread, but the idea of "owning" a colorway makes no sense. Custom legends? Sure. You paid for the molds, but because you choose to put red text on a white key cap doesn't make you the "owner". Just plain silly.

Offline MiTo

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #127 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 15:58:13 »

reruns sap the community's interest in new sets, so if we were running Pulse/Calm Depths/Penumbra all the time no new sets would get into the queue. I think this probably held more true a couple years ago than it does now -- tons and tons of GBs are getting produced every year, through GMK/SP/JTK/etc, and the community's still growing.


This is the exact reason about why PuL2E won't happen. Not exclusivity bull**** like many used to think in the past, including me, before both communities blew on size. At the end of the day, I believe we should create new things and keep the creativity ball rolling. No reason to repeat things just because people want or can afford them. People need to learn how to appreciate things without the desperate need of possession and obsession in my opinion. Just wait, as sooner or later something of your taste will pop up. There are infinite combinations and themes to be explored.

Same for artisans, in my opinion



Offline inanis

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #128 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:03:06 »
The fact that you are calling it Pul2e is exactly part of the problem. This is hilariously too much. Just try for a second to not take yourself seriously. I promise, it will help your relations here. 
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Offline baldgye

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #129 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:05:35 »
There are infinite combinations and themes to be explored.


Says the kid who rips of other peoples work and claims it to be his own lmao

Offline wilarseny

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #130 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:09:22 »

reruns sap the community's interest in new sets, so if we were running Pulse/Calm Depths/Penumbra all the time no new sets would get into the queue. I think this probably held more true a couple years ago than it does now -- tons and tons of GBs are getting produced every year, through GMK/SP/JTK/etc, and the community's still growing.


This is the exact reason about why PuL2E won't happen. Not exclusivity bull**** like many used to think in the past, including me, before both communities blew on size. At the end of the day, I believe we should create new things and keep the creativity ball rolling. No reason to repeat things just because people want or can afford them. People need to learn how to appreciate things without the desperate need of possession and obsession in my opinion. Just wait, as sooner or later something of your taste will pop up. There are infinite combinations and themes to be explored.

Same for artisans, in my opinion

That's cool and I do respect that opinion, but I just don't see it playing out in practice. People are still going to make new sets, it's fun to design a colorway and if it's good enough + timed right + the maker has enough political cache(/trust/whatever you want to call it) in the community, it'll get made. Also think that especially if another maker of SA caps comes up, like JTK has with GMK, it'll be time to retire this argument.

I agree with the bolded a lot, but - I also don't feel any need to force other people into compliance with my philosophies. If others want to go down the Pygmalion path, that's up to them.

Offline MeltingTeeth

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #131 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:14:02 »
All that matters is what Signature Plastics says and they don't seem to post here much anymore.

Offline inanis

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #132 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:18:32 »
All that matters is what Signature Plastics says and they don't seem to post here much anymore.
I bet when they come back they will be super happy this lovely discussion is in their subforum!
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #133 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:18:48 »
Not exclusivity bull**** like many used to think in the past, including me, before both communities blew on size.

Sooooo.

You did intentionally not run it again for exclusivity.  But now you've changed your mind...?

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #134 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:19:03 »

reruns sap the community's interest in new sets, so if we were running Pulse/Calm Depths/Penumbra all the time no new sets would get into the queue. I think this probably held more true a couple years ago than it does now -- tons and tons of GBs are getting produced every year, through GMK/SP/JTK/etc, and the community's still growing.


This is the exact reason about why PuL2E won't happen. Not exclusivity bull**** like many used to think in the past, including me, before both communities blew on size. At the end of the day, I believe we should create new things and keep the creativity ball rolling. No reason to repeat things just because people want or can afford them. People need to learn how to appreciate things without the desperate need of possession and obsession in my opinion. Just wait, as sooner or later something of your taste will pop up. There are infinite combinations and themes to be explored.

Same for artisans, in my opinion
I agree with the bolded a lot, but - I also don't feel any need to force other people into compliance with my philosophies. If others want to go down the Pygmalion path, that's up to them.

I appreciate the desire to create new things, but there's nothing that says you can't create something new while also running another round of a set you've already put out there. I've only been in the keyboard community for a few months. I've already found that there are some keysets and artisans I'll never get my hands on because of a price created by artificial exclusivity and/or incredibly high demand. I don't have an obsession with Click Clacks or Bros, and I don't need to have Penumbra or Pulse, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like an opportunity to acquire them.

Create all the new stuff you want. I still like some of the older stuff. Running new rounds for a keyset doesn't compromise you as an artist, it just makes your work available to more people who are genuinely interested in it. I feel as though I've gone a little off topic though.

I think that the keysets are property of their respective creators. However, that creator does not own the colorway. They only own that specific combination of colors, fonts, and novelties. If anyone else makes a set with identical colors, but a different font and/or novelties, that's fair game.

Here are some logos:


None of those companies own purple. None of those companies own a font type (maybe some do, I don't know exactly). However, they own a specific combination of text, color, and presentation of their logo. Why would keysets be any different?

Offline baldgye

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #135 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:19:48 »
It's the poor Brazilians who I feel sorry for...

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #136 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:23:58 »
Still on mobile so I'll be brief.  There are not infinite options.  There are limited options based on SP color selection.   Beyond that it's custom colors with added expense which can be problematic for a set.

Even then, certain color combinations are going to be far more desirable and popular than others.   Hence why we're on yet another run of Granite while GMK SNES couldn't make MoQ numbers.

That said, I'm of the opinion that there be no protection on colorways.  Let thosr novelties that can be protected be so.  Let the colorway remain open.  Let the original designer have first crack at reruns.  If they decline,  let it be open to the community. 

In the case of Penumbra, a 2nd round is in the plans.  In the case of other sets, the designer has said no more.  Those would be open, possibly with a change in novelties.  Say, bbq/nn but with a pulse icon that flatlines.  Name and Marketing?  "Flatline: What Happens When You Have No Pulse."  For added parody, make it BBJ for the blue (for those that recall the bbj vs bbq argument with MiTo and Oobly).


Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #137 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:27:36 »
How, exactly, is someone supposed to appreciate new sets they don't like when the one(s) they really love can't be purchased (new) anymore?

I have a friend who is new to all this and he has this vision in his mind for his perfect keyboard. It requires the Honeywell keysets from 7bit to make it happen. No other set has the colors he needs, in all the necessary keyboard positions, and in SA format. For him, none of the proposed sets in any of the ICs out there will do him any good. Telling him to appreciate the diversity of sets and colorways that can play absolutely no role in making his custom keyboard vision come to life is not only useless, it is patronizing.

I think it helps to put oneself into the shoes of a newcomer, who has never been privvy to the history of this community and has missed out on all the previous group buys. These notions of exclusivity and exclusive control are helpful to only those who already have what they want, are bored, and can only get it up for the invigorating promise of sets yet to be.

As long as this notion of constantly moving forward, and thumbing ones noses at future customers who long for a set from the past prevails, there will always be incentive to recreate those sets of the past, or at the very least their colorways. If the demand is strong enough, then the PuLSE colorway will find its way back into production, without the PuLSE icon keys, and at that point MiTo's desire to keep it from ever resurfacing will be sheer futility.

The more you tighten your grip, MiTo, the more colorways will slip through your fingers... ;)
« Last Edit: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:32:33 by zslane »

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #138 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:34:06 »
How, exactly, is someone supposed to appreciate new sets they don't like when the one(s) they really love can't be purchased (new) anymore?

I have a friend who is new to all this and he has this vision in his mind for his perfect keyboard. It requires the Honeywell keys form 7bit to make it happen. No other set has the colors he needs, in all the necessary keyboard positions, and in SA format. For him, none of the proposed sets in any of the ICs out there will do him any good. Telling him to appreciate the diversity of sets and colorways that can play absolutely no role in making his custom keyboard vision come to life is not only useless, it is patronizing.

I think it helps to put oneself into the shoes of a newcomer, who has never been privvy to the history of this community and has missed out on all the previous group buys. These notions of exclusivity and exclusive control are helpful to only those who already have what they want, are bored, and can only get it up for the invigorating promise of sets yet to be.

As long as this notion of constantly moving forward, and thumbing ones noses at future customers who long for a set from the past prevails, there will always be incentive to recreate those sets of the past, or at the very least their colorways. If the demand is strong enough, then the PuLSE colorway will find its way back into production, without the PuLSE icon keys, and at that point MiTo's desire to keep it from ever resurfacing will be sheer futility.

The more you tighten your grip, MiTo, the more colorways will slip through your fingers... ;)

I am not entirely sure how you worded this, so don't take offense if i misinterpreted what you were saying here.

But as I see it I would disagree a bit and say that new people arent actually entitled to any of the past sets that were run. Personally, I am trying to make mine available to them when possible, but this may not be the case for all designers. Also, keep in mind that many of us were around for years before Round 5 came out, for example, and waited a few more years to get it. So instant gratification and keyboard related group buys just never go hand in hand.

I don't disagree with the sentiment though, I do want to make things available to new members to the community, but just keep in mind that it takes a lot of time, regardless.
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Offline HoffmanMyster

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #139 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:43:31 »
How, exactly, is someone supposed to appreciate new sets they don't like when the one(s) they really love can't be purchased (new) anymore?

I have a friend who is new to all this and he has this vision in his mind for his perfect keyboard. It requires the Honeywell keys form 7bit to make it happen. No other set has the colors he needs, in all the necessary keyboard positions, and in SA format. For him, none of the proposed sets in any of the ICs out there will do him any good. Telling him to appreciate the diversity of sets and colorways that can play absolutely no role in making his custom keyboard vision come to life is not only useless, it is patronizing.

I think it helps to put oneself into the shoes of a newcomer, who has never been privvy to the history of this community and has missed out on all the previous group buys. These notions of exclusivity and exclusive control are helpful to only those who already have what they want, are bored, and can only get it up for the invigorating promise of sets yet to be.

As long as this notion of constantly moving forward, and thumbing ones noses at future customers who long for a set from the past prevails, there will always be incentive to recreate those sets of the past, or at the very least their colorways. If the demand is strong enough, then the PuLSE colorway will find its way back into production, without the PuLSE icon keys, and at that point MiTo's desire to keep it from ever resurfacing will be sheer futility.

The more you tighten your grip, MiTo, the more colorways will slip through your fingers... ;)

I am not entirely sure how you worded this, so don't take offense if i misinterpreted what you were saying here.

But as I see it I would disagree a bit and say that new people arent actually entitled to any of the past sets that were run. Personally, I am trying to make mine available to them when possible, but this may not be the case for all designers. Also, keep in mind that many of us were around for years before Round 5 came out, for example, and waited a few more years to get it. So instant gratification and keyboard related group buys just never go hand in hand.

I don't disagree with the sentiment though, I do want to make things available to new members to the community, but just keep in mind that it takes a lot of time, regardless.

Nobody is entitled to anything, but to artificially prevent supply from even coming close to meeting demand is the thing that bothers me (and presumably zslane and his friend).  Especially with something such as keysets, that are clearly very industrial in their scale. 
The sentiment is shared with artisan caps, but the lines are blurred because very few artisan caps are produced on such a scale (and being works of art, the intentions of the artist are different).

That said, I agree with LSB too - I joined this community with nothing, and the only reason I have what I do have is because I've been around long enough to just happen to acquire the keysets and such.  BUT, I cannot (and do not) expect newcomers to invest 3 years just to hope to cross paths with their dream keyset.

This really gets at the root of the community vs hobby discussion.  As this hobby grows, the number of people "passing through" and hoping to deck out their boards increases rapidly, while the number of people that invest themselves fully in the community increases much slower.  I am obviously a bigger fan of the latter, but we cannot fault these keyboarders that simply want shiny trinkets for their keyboards - especially since we are all that way with other hobbies.  ;)

Anyway, I digress.  I'm pretty sure I meant to make a point in there somewhere.  :confused:

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #140 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 16:50:03 »
How, exactly, is someone supposed to appreciate new sets they don't like when the one(s) they really love can't be purchased (new) anymore?

I have a friend who is new to all this and he has this vision in his mind for his perfect keyboard. It requires the Honeywell keys form 7bit to make it happen. No other set has the colors he needs, in all the necessary keyboard positions, and in SA format. For him, none of the proposed sets in any of the ICs out there will do him any good. Telling him to appreciate the diversity of sets and colorways that can play absolutely no role in making his custom keyboard vision come to life is not only useless, it is patronizing.

I think it helps to put oneself into the shoes of a newcomer, who has never been privvy to the history of this community and has missed out on all the previous group buys. These notions of exclusivity and exclusive control are helpful to only those who already have what they want, are bored, and can only get it up for the invigorating promise of sets yet to be.

As long as this notion of constantly moving forward, and thumbing ones noses at future customers who long for a set from the past prevails, there will always be incentive to recreate those sets of the past, or at the very least their colorways. If the demand is strong enough, then the PuLSE colorway will find its way back into production, without the PuLSE icon keys, and at that point MiTo's desire to keep it from ever resurfacing will be sheer futility.

The more you tighten your grip, MiTo, the more colorways will slip through your fingers... ;)

I am not entirely sure how you worded this, so don't take offense if i misinterpreted what you were saying here.

But as I see it I would disagree a bit and say that new people arent actually entitled to any of the past sets that were run. Personally, I am trying to make mine available to them when possible, but this may not be the case for all designers. Also, keep in mind that many of us were around for years before Round 5 came out, for example, and waited a few more years to get it. So instant gratification and keyboard related group buys just never go hand in hand.

I don't disagree with the sentiment though, I do want to make things available to new members to the community, but just keep in mind that it takes a lot of time, regardless.

Nobody is entitled to anything, but to artificially prevent supply from even coming close to meeting demand is the thing that bothers me (and presumably zslane and his friend).  Especially with something such as keysets, that are clearly very industrial in their scale. 
The sentiment is shared with artisan caps, but the lines are blurred because very few artisan caps are produced on such a scale (and being works of art, the intentions of the artist are different).

That said, I agree with LSB too - I joined this community with nothing, and the only reason I have what I do have is because I've been around long enough to just happen to acquire the keysets and such.  BUT, I cannot (and do not) expect newcomers to invest 3 years just to hope to cross paths with their dream keyset.

This really gets at the root of the community vs hobby discussion.  As this hobby grows, the number of people "passing through" and hoping to deck out their boards increases rapidly, while the number of people that invest themselves fully in the community increases much slower.  I am obviously a bigger fan of the latter, but we cannot fault these keyboarders that simply want shiny trinkets for their keyboards - especially since we are all that way with other hobbies.  ;)

Anyway, I digress.  I'm pretty sure I meant to make a point in there somewhere.  :confused:

Oh yeah, I 110% agree. Not running a set to make it rare and exclusive is dumb and benefits the community none. I don't know of a single reason not to run a keyset again, if there is interest. Sure, waiting to run it until there is a significant amount of interest, or waiting on the time to be right is a must, but just simply not running it again when people want it, is dumb. I'll let my sets run in one way or another as long as people have a desire for them and I can facilitate a way to have them made.

No comment on the artisan thing haha, that is an exhausting topic at times. But yeah, different story than keycap sets entirely imo.

Its an odd thing with newcomers though. I really do want to encourage them to get involved, and stick around and really get invested in the community, though more often than not they are "moving through." In the end they probably will have to pay a lot more if they want that "instant gratification" or very specifically want a certain set. Heck, there are sets I've still not been able to acquire after years that I've looked for (looking at your Viper's current set  :rolleyes: ) haha
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Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #141 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:01:40 »
How, exactly, is someone supposed to appreciate new sets they don't like when the one(s) they really love can't be purchased (new) anymore?

I have a friend who is new to all this and he has this vision in his mind for his perfect keyboard. It requires the Honeywell keys form 7bit to make it happen. No other set has the colors he needs, in all the necessary keyboard positions, and in SA format. For him, none of the proposed sets in any of the ICs out there will do him any good. Telling him to appreciate the diversity of sets and colorways that can play absolutely no role in making his custom keyboard vision come to life is not only useless, it is patronizing.

I think it helps to put oneself into the shoes of a newcomer, who has never been privvy to the history of this community and has missed out on all the previous group buys. These notions of exclusivity and exclusive control are helpful to only those who already have what they want, are bored, and can only get it up for the invigorating promise of sets yet to be.

As long as this notion of constantly moving forward, and thumbing ones noses at future customers who long for a set from the past prevails, there will always be incentive to recreate those sets of the past, or at the very least their colorways. If the demand is strong enough, then the PuLSE colorway will find its way back into production, without the PuLSE icon keys, and at that point MiTo's desire to keep it from ever resurfacing will be sheer futility.

The more you tighten your grip, MiTo, the more colorways will slip through your fingers... ;)

I am not entirely sure how you worded this, so don't take offense if i misinterpreted what you were saying here.

But as I see it I would disagree a bit and say that new people arent actually entitled to any of the past sets that were run. Personally, I am trying to make mine available to them when possible, but this may not be the case for all designers. Also, keep in mind that many of us were around for years before Round 5 came out, for example, and waited a few more years to get it. So instant gratification and keyboard related group buys just never go hand in hand.

I don't disagree with the sentiment though, I do want to make things available to new members to the community, but just keep in mind that it takes a lot of time, regardless.

Nobody is entitled to anything, but to artificially prevent supply from even coming close to meeting demand is the thing that bothers me (and presumably zslane and his friend).  Especially with something such as keysets, that are clearly very industrial in their scale. 
The sentiment is shared with artisan caps, but the lines are blurred because very few artisan caps are produced on such a scale (and being works of art, the intentions of the artist are different).

That said, I agree with LSB too - I joined this community with nothing, and the only reason I have what I do have is because I've been around long enough to just happen to acquire the keysets and such.  BUT, I cannot (and do not) expect newcomers to invest 3 years just to hope to cross paths with their dream keyset.

This really gets at the root of the community vs hobby discussion.  As this hobby grows, the number of people "passing through" and hoping to deck out their boards increases rapidly, while the number of people that invest themselves fully in the community increases much slower.  I am obviously a bigger fan of the latter, but we cannot fault these keyboarders that simply want shiny trinkets for their keyboards - especially since we are all that way with other hobbies.  ;)

Anyway, I digress.  I'm pretty sure I meant to make a point in there somewhere.  :confused:

Oh yeah, I 110% agree. Not running a set to make it rare and exclusive is dumb and benefits the community none. I don't know of a single reason not to run a keyset again, if there is interest. Sure, waiting to run it until there is a significant amount of interest, or waiting on the time to be right is a must, but just simply not running it again when people want it, is dumb. I'll let my sets run in one way or another as long as people have a desire for them and I can facilitate a way to have them made.

No comment on the artisan thing haha, that is an exhausting topic at times. But yeah, different story than keycap sets entirely imo.

Its an odd thing with newcomers though. I really do want to encourage them to get involved, and stick around and really get invested in the community, though more often than not they are "moving through." In the end they probably will have to pay a lot more if they want that "instant gratification" or very specifically want a certain set. Heck, there are sets I've still not been able to acquire after years that I've looked for (looking at your Viper's current set  :rolleyes: ) haha

Dammit LSB, if you run another Jukebox group buy I won't be able to sell this set for $300.

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #142 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:02:23 »
Dammit LSB, if you run another Jukebox group buy I won't be able to sell this set for $300.

Sell now then! Cause it ain't so far away  :rolleyes:
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Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #143 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:03:28 »
Dammit LSB, if you run another Jukebox group buy I won't be able to sell this set for $300.

Sell now then! Cause it ain't so far away  :rolleyes:

Jukebox R2 confirmed for tomorrow. Selling set for $197 before the market crashes.

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #144 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:05:18 »
Dammit LSB, if you run another Jukebox group buy I won't be able to sell this set for $300.

Sell now then! Cause it ain't so far away  :rolleyes:

Jukebox R2 confirmed for tomorrow. Selling set for $197 before the market crashes.

You got a few weeks to ditch that old set  :p
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Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #145 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:10:04 »
Yeah, being able to purchase something which is produced (by machine, mind you) and sold to the general public isn't something I would call an entitlement. It is simply commerce.

For a lot of folks, keycaps are just products they buy to make their keyboards prettier. They are probably not even be aware of the time and effort it takes to design these sets. But they are willing to pay for the priviledge of having them just the same. Only a fool turns down their money over disapproval of the casual level of their participation in the hobby.

Moreover, I feel it is patently unfair to expect future buyers to be welcomed into the hobby by relegating past sets into the exclusive realm of collectors, when all it takes to make the keysets available again is to allocate a slot in SP's manufacturing schedule and flip a switch. For all the heavily involved members of the community who helped shepherd a set from concept to reality, the reward for that involvement was the fun of participation and the satisfaction of having a voice during development. The idea that a further reward should be the right to turn it into a collector's item is a more chilling example of entitlement, in my view.

But that is all rather tangential to the subject of colorway ownership. I apologize for the threat derailment.

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #146 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:10:40 »
Dammit LSB, if you run another Jukebox group buy I won't be able to sell this set for $300.

Sell now then! Cause it ain't so far away  :rolleyes:

Jukebox R2 confirmed for tomorrow. Selling set for $197 before the market crashes.

You got a few weeks to ditch that old set  :p

I just bought it a few days ago. It was supposed to be a test for the SA profile because I wanted Modern Selectric. Now I've fallen for Jukebox and Modern Selectric arrives tomorrow and I don't know what to do.  :eek:

Nantucket Selectric needs to get here already so I don't have to choose (because I really can't afford to be hoarding these).

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #147 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:12:06 »
Yeah, being able to purchase something which is produced (by machine, mind you) and sold to the general public isn't something I would call an entitlement. It is simply commerce.

For a lot of folks, keycaps are just products they buy to make their keyboards prettier. They are probably not even be aware of the time and effort it takes to design these sets. But they are willing to pay for the priviledge of having them just the same. Only a fool turns down their money over disapproval of the casual level of their participation in the hobby.

Moreover, I feel it is patently unfair to expect future buyers to be welcomed into the hobby by relegating past sets into the exclusive realm of collectors, when all it takes to make the keysets available again is to allocate a slot in SP's manufacturing schedule and flip a switch. For all the heavily involved members of the community who helped shepherd a set from concept to reality, the reward for that involvement was the fun of participation and the satisfaction of having a voice during development. The idea that a further reward should be the right to turn it into a collector's item is a more chilling example of entitlement, in my view.

But that is all rather tangential to the subject of colorway ownership. I apologize for the threat derailment.

Well, you do realize how long it takes to even get a set made by PMK at this point even after the order is placed right? Months, at the very least. So they still aren't like a lot of retail items that you can just quickly get made when you run out.

Still I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
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Offline zslane

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #148 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:13:02 »
Once my Round 5a(6) sets arrive, I will have a PuLSE set up for sale if anyone is interested...

Offline FLFisherman

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Re: Who owns a colorway?
« Reply #149 on: Mon, 18 January 2016, 17:13:23 »
Once my Round 5a(6) sets arrive, I will have a PuLSE set up for sale if anyone is interested...

For $200?