Does less Operating Force always means faster switches?

[freeman7]

Hi

I am just trying to understand the theory please, assuming two switches have an actuation point of 1.2mm but one has a 45cn operating force and the second has a 20cn operating force, will this mean that the lighter switch actuates faster overall?

Many thanks for your help.

[PlayBox]

Hi

I am just trying to understand the theory please, assuming two switches have an actuation point of 1.2mm but one has a 45cn operating force and the second has a 20cn operating force, will this mean that the lighter switch actuates faster overall?

Many thanks for your help.

i doubt it does. it will actually make you mistype more often, i would just stick to the switches that feel the best for you becahse kyboards make no difference in gaming most of the time

[freeman7]

Hi

I am just trying to understand the theory please, assuming two switches have an actuation point of 1.2mm but one has a 45cn operating force and the second has a 20cn operating force, will this mean that the lighter switch actuates faster overall?

Many thanks for your help.

i doubt it does. it will actually make you mistype more often, i would just stick to the switches that feel the best for you becahse kyboards make no difference in gaming most of the time

Hi,  mistyping is not an issue, I just want to understand the theory, especially if the applied force impacts the overall speed of the switch from the instant fingers make contact, or if it's the same and all that matter is actuation point..

[PlayBox]

Hi

I am just trying to understand the theory please, assuming two switches have an actuation point of 1.2mm but one has a 45cn operating force and the second has a 20cn operating force, will this mean that the lighter switch actuates faster overall?

Many thanks for your help.

i doubt it does. it will actually make you mistype more often, i would just stick to the switches that feel the best for you becahse kyboards make no difference in gaming most of the time

Hi,  mistyping is not an issue, I just want to understand the theory, especially if the applied force impacts the overall speed of the switch from the instant fingers make contact, or if it's the same and all that matter is actuation point..

in theory less actuation force - less force needed to actuate and more relative force applied then the faster it actuates but in practice every switch is equally fast and has no advantage/disadvantage over another in gaming

[Leslieann]

Muscles don't move instantly and take time to get moving, so in a way, yes the lighter the spring the faster it will actuate.

However, the amount of time it takes for your finger to get moving and press with enough force to move the switch with less force than a tad more is tiny compared to your reaction time and just about everything else you could do to improve your skills.

[freeman7]

Muscles don't move instantly and take time to get moving, so in a way, yes the lighter the spring the faster it will actuate.

However, the amount of time it takes for your finger to get moving and press with enough force to move the switch with less force than a tad more is tiny compared to your reaction time and just about everything else you could do to improve your skills.

Alright, yes it makes sense that there is more room to improve speed by improving the human reaction time, than improving the switch, to put this in perspective, assuming an average reaction time of 200ms, a 10% improvement (caffeine) would mean a 20ms gain, while gains from improving switches are probably in the 1 to 5ms region..

still, i wanted to confirm that a lighter switch should in theory actuate faster, so thank you guys for your help.

[Leslieann]

I doubt it's even 1ms difference, I'm thinking like 0.05ms or even 0.01ms.
It's there, but even if you could measure it, it's insignificant.

Use what you like and are comfortable with, that will be better for you, your hands and gaming performance long term.
People often ignore comfort in computing and it really makes a difference. It's easy to focus on speed but your peripherals (and screen)  and seat is what you interact with and people rarely put a price on that. Once you do, it's difficult to go back to junk or purpose built for speed only type stuff.

[freeman7]

I doubt it's even 1ms difference, I'm thinking like 0.05ms or even 0.01ms.
It's there, but even if you could measure it, it's insignificant.

Use what you like and are comfortable with, that will be better for you, your hands and gaming performance long term.
People often ignore comfort in computing and it really makes a difference. It's easy to focus on speed but your peripherals (and screen)  and seat is what you interact with and people rarely put a price on that. Once you do, it's difficult to go back to junk or purpose built for speed only type stuff.

To confirm the speed gains i intend to do a little mod on the MX low-profile speed switches that i have:

1) Original with 45cn force
2) Modded to 20cn force

i will then test both and report back if anyone is interested, would you happen to have any idea about how to reduce the Force of that switch please, i was thinking about trimming the spring a bit, and removing some bits from some plastic parts (at least that's what another member in the forum did to achieve a similar result) but to be honest, I am not sure how to go about this..

[Leslieann]

You need different springs.
There's ways to do it but it's not good long term or precise.

Also,
Is that bottom out or activation force (only Cherry uses activation force to rate springs)? Most if not all tactiles and clickies will get stuck using a spring that's rated 20cn for activation let alone bottom out, in fact many will even get stuck (on return) when using 45cn bottom out. Activation is a terrible spring metric for switches because it changes depending on where the activation point is.

[freeman7]

You need different springs.
There's ways to do it but it's not good long term or precise.

Also,
Is that bottom out or activation force (only Cherry uses activation force to rate springs)? Most if not all tactiles and clickies will get stuck using a spring that's rated 20cn for activation let alone bottom out, in fact many will even get stuck (on return) when using 45cn bottom out. Activation is a terrible spring metric for switches because it changes depending on where the activation point is.

Hi,

From the info I could Find, 45CN is the actuation force while the bottom-out force is 80g, activation point is  1mm, please tell me about those ways if you can, I want to at least try and measure the results, even if it's not precise, I am interested.

I also found a guy saying that he filled those same switches with something so that they bottom out earlier, although that's probably not relevant to what I want to do, I just want them to become lighter.

[Leslieann]

To soften a spring, heat it with a lighter.
To stiffen it, stretch it.
Keep in mind, neither is precise, nor a long term solution, it's really only good for a test.

You can also cut off a coil or two, that will also change it, though it depends on the initial compression inside the switch as to how much it softens, and it will change how the spring ramps up, it will ramp up faster. You can also cut and stretch to mess with the rates, but again, it;s not consistent and you're damaging the spring by stretching it so it won't last long. Fine for an experiment but not much more.

To shorten the throw  and bottom out sooner you put o-rings under the key caps (doesn't work with all of them) or bit of an o-ring in the center hole at the base (inside). Beware, this can drastically change the sound and feel, often making them mushy and inconsistent. Worse it can make some not activate if it bottoms out too soon. We're talking factions of a mm being all that stands between good and not working at all.

[Morbii]

We're talking factions of a mm being all that stands between good and not working at all.

1 planck length, even!

[freeman7]

To soften a spring, heat it with a lighter.
To stiffen it, stretch it.
Keep in mind, neither is precise, nor a long term solution, it's really only good for a test.

You can also cut off a coil or two, that will also change it, though it depends on the initial compression inside the switch as to how much it softens, and it will change how the spring ramps up, it will ramp up faster. You can also cut and stretch to mess with the rates, but again, it;s not consistent and you're damaging the spring by stretching it so it won't last long. Fine for an experiment but not much more.

To shorten the throw  and bottom out sooner you put o-rings under the key caps (doesn't work with all of them) or bit of an o-ring in the center hole at the base (inside). Beware, this can drastically change the sound and feel, often making them mushy and inconsistent. Worse it can make some not activate if it bottoms out too soon. We're talking factions of a mm being all that stands between good and not working at all.

Alright, thank you for the ideas, i'll give those a try.