Question about Vintage Blacks

[DzyDzyDino]

Hey, I had a question regarding Vintage Blacks -- Is it still up for debate what in particular separates a vintage black from a regular black, like what makes it feel better? It's been stated that the spring that was used was different, but since the majority of people that use vintage blacks swap the spring out anyway, I doubt that's the end of it. Is it the plastic that's different in the stem as well?

I'm assuming the bottoms are exactly the same as every other switch? And I know the top is slightly different from the logo but the top has no play in the feel, yes?

The reason I ask is that I recently harvested the switches off a Wyse PCE. I put them into a board and it feels awful. The Wyse PCE was filthy and I really should have soaked the switches before putting them in the board. I figured that wiping them down and then lubing them would fix it, but I was wrong. These switches feel like someone threw sand in them.

I can't hang with it.

But I did go to the trouble to buy a Wyse PCE and harvest all the switches. I would like to try out these vintage black stems.

My question is... I was thinking of just taking the vintage stems which are a lot easier to clean than the bottoms and swapping them onto a new clean switch bottom with the spring I want etc. Would that still preserve the vintage feel? Or is there something particular about the switch bottom too? Should I go ahead and try to clean out the switch bottoms? I don't think just soaking the bottoms would help.

Overall, typing on it is not bad. The typing is smooth and when you're typing fast you don't really notice it... but it's there like a little tickle in the back of the throat, and when you press a key slowly you can hear and feel it go down. although the overall feel indeed is that of a lubed black.

Anyone with knowledge/experience on blacks' advice would be totally appreciated!

tl;dr if I swap a vintage black stem into brand new switch bottom/top with a custom spring, will the vintage black stem make any difference over a brand new black stem? Is any of the what makes a vintage black "vintage" present in the stem?

[hwood34]

I personally don't see a huge difference between new and "vintage" blacks, but I think most of it just has to do with any roughness between the stem and the housing being worn down after years of use. Some of it might be also in the spring, not sure though, but a vintage stem in a new housing might feel slightly different but I wouldn't be surprised if it was negligible

[Puddsy]

You can get the same effect as vintage blacks by using modern blacks for a long time. They're just a little bit smoother, that's all.

[DzyDzyDino]

So there's no manufacturing difference between vintage and new blacks? Was that finally laid to rest?

Also do u think the stems would carry the majority of the difference?

[Puddsy]

So there's no manufacturing difference between vintage and new blacks? Was that finally laid to rest?

Also do u think the stems would carry the majority of the difference?

Different plastic in the stems. It's a little softer than what we have in out blacks today.

[davkol]

Different materials. Springs have been changed over time, and they indeed used different plastic as well. It's the housing that makes vintage blacks feel almost frictionless IME.

[faceyourfaces]

So there's no manufacturing difference between vintage and new blacks? Was that finally laid to rest?

I remember reading that Cherry has not changed the design of the switch but has since upgraded the tooling used to make them which may be the reason why old Cherry MX Black switches feel different compared to new ones.

[Puddsy]

So there's no manufacturing difference between vintage and new blacks? Was that finally laid to rest?

I remember reading that Cherry has not changed the design of the switch but has since upgraded the tooling used to make them which may be the reason why old Cherry MX Black switches feel different compared to new ones.

Yep! That's how I understand it as well.

[DzyDzyDino]

Thank you everyone for all the responses. Hrm. If the lower housing is responsible for the vintage black's smoothness, I wonder why people have not created vintage other switches using the bottoms from vintage blacks?

I'm hoping that's not the case because my bottoms are all nasty and I don't really think I can reuse them.

I would really like to see some not so dirty vintage blacks, because this is my only experience with vintage blacks so far but these have been abused beyond belief and even just using the stem, it still somehow seems grittier than a new black and isn't in line with what the descriptions I've read of vintage blacks are at all.
In fact, using these vintage blacks I have here make normal blacks feel frictionless.

I had felt PCB mounted blacks on a Cherry 11900 that I could have sworn were vintage blacks from the way they felt, but upon close inspection of the label, they looked to be modern vintage blacks -- but they were far smoother than any other black I had felt.

There seem to be so many variables in getting a "smooth" switch... I'm sure a majority of the vintage black thing apart from the "worn in" part of the switch are mostly just all in our heads, but since I was building a board and I had it open, and I had access, I figured go for broke and try it out (which ended up being much more trouble than just getting new switches to begin with). Having to desolder a whole board now. and resticker/lube a whole new set of switches. blech.

[davkol]

The whole thing is a mess. Cherry Corp. gradually replaced molds and changed some materials. There are even keyboards with different switches of the same kind. In addition, there are heavily worn switches... and poorly stored keyboards. Lube applied in the manufacturing process may come into play as well, I guess.

Most discussions are about MX Black, there's something about MX Blue (see Dark Blue and Navy Blue), but old browns/clears are quite poorly documented AFAIK (I can't tell, whether the few mentions are mostly about design, or break-in), not to start with rare kinds of MX switches.

I've inspected '91 blues, and they were visually different from modern blues, neither in color, nor logo though—rather springs and consistently different texture on plastic housings. I couldn't tell any difference in feel in a blind test with various switch parts swapped. Others may have different experience; in particular, I've read about significant difference in sound.

Blacks are tricky. There are Nixdorfs, some others know more about them. Then there are blacks from vintage Cherry keyboards, such as early G80-1000HA*; these are consistently very smooth across the board from what I've seen. I did some blind tests as well, when I had access to some, and could easily distinguish them from modern and modern heavily-worn switches. Springs were visually different from the newer ones, but the feel was determined solely by housings (well, I couldn't tell the difference with only other parts swapped). Apart from these, there are plenty of blacks harvested from Wyse boards like yours. The problem with them is that they're hit-or-miss. I've had some very gritty and some very smooth ones, even from one batch, and even on a single barely used keyboard.

[DzyDzyDino]

Awesome. Thanks for the writeup.

I have a dolchpac63 with blues that feel distinctly different from other blues, even well worn other blues. The shade of blue is lighter in them than I'm used to seeing in blues as well, or is it just my imagination. But they do feel different.

That's very interesting to know about the Wyse. I can see traces of cruddy lube on the  contacts, unless it's just gunk.

Also -- unrelated, but is it concluded that the only difference between mx whites and greens is lube? I've noticed that in all the brand new mx whites there are little gobs of thick grease lube on the tips of the legs of the clickers.

Usually when I open up a switch i just wipe it down and start lubing it myself but recently i've been paying attention to the lube that they come with. Are they factory lubed from factory or done specifically to specification for whoever they're ordered by? Like will Wyse switches be lubed differently than say ones on Data911s?

I've also got some browns from an old cherry board that feel slightly different but they could just be worn in, so it's hard to tell.

I suppose it's like you said, it really is a mess. And with nothing to really identify tops, bottoms, and stems... they really could be anything.
I was just hoping someone somewhere down the line had maybe figured it all out.

I was really disappointed in my purchase of my WYSE. I didn't know if it was because the board itself was so grody (it really was in bad condition) or if that was how the switches were inclined to be.
Also... what's up with that dark blue turning straight black. It's so hard to find wyse caps where the blue actually looks blue. I'm afraid to retrobrite it for fear of damaging the plastic, is there any other way to bring out the blue?