Keyboard injury (to keyboard, not me) not solved

[TalkingTree]

I would imagine using software introduces a delay

I don't know if your keyboard has a reflashable firmware, if that's the case, there would be no (extra) delay.

Edit: Typo.

[jcoffin1981]

I have gotten the spacebar switch to work by wiring one part of the switch to the diode labelled "D31."  By connecting 1 pin of the switch to the negative part of this diode (I think it's a diode).  The other end I connected to the visible trace coming from the opposite pin and when depressing the switch the space actually worked.  My soldering skills are meager but I'm going to give it a go.  What do I have to lose?

I could also work in the area of the controller I think, but this I'd rather not do. Each pin is labelled 1-64 and I was able (I think) to get a space to actuate as well on the appropriate pin.

[jcoffin1981]

I would imagine using software introduces a delay

I don't know if your keyboard has a reflashable firmware, if that's the case, there would be no (extra) delay.

Edit: Typo.

I've already flashed to the most recent firmware.  However, this may cause a problem when swapping keyboards.  The V60 Gateron is my favorite, but I'd like to use others occasionally.  I'm glad I didn't sell my Poker 3.

[rowdy]

There is now a close parenthesis missing from this thread title.

[jcoffin1981]

There is now a close parenthesis missing from this thread title.

It got cut off, or overlooked, or whatever.  If it bothers you that much I'd be happy to correct it
However, I do have a blister on my finger from the soldering iron, so technically I was injured.  The rubber insulation does not work so well.

I'll post an image of my hack job tonight.  Hopefully I'll by typing the update from a working board.

[jcoffin1981]

So believe it or not I finally got the space bar switch working.  Eventually the Radio Shack tip would not work for me anymore, but I found the "Mudder" chisel tip to be highly useful, but in certain cases too large obviously. It was actually much more effective than all the other tips combined. I want to thank everyone here for there tips and tricks and support.  Looking at the finished work I am embarrassed to show it to anybody. Getting the solder to melt and flow into nice shiny pools was the hardest part of all this I(in some places it is not so I cannot speak as to the longevity of this repair). I also found that this Mudder iron actually works well at the very lowest setting of 200 degrees C.  Whether or not that has any accuracy or not I have not idea, but the higher temps of 300-375 may have caused these tips to burn out prematurely?  I need better tools and a lot more experience.  I also need to learn to better maintain the tips while I'm using them so they don't degrade so fast.  Ironically I don't predict actually going to have a need solder anything else in the near future. 

If anyone really has a wish to see the finished product I can post it, but there is not much to see.  I ended up using about 3 inches too much wire for each terminal because I found any shorter left me no room to maneuver the opposite end.  Ironically I spent almost as much on materials as I did on the replacement board. But it's a great feeling to say "I did it" even if it was a crappy job.  I'm really a DIY'er.  I own 50 watches and if was to pay professionals to maintain them it would cost me a couple grand a year, and I know I'm doing it correctly with no shortcuts taken or being taken advantage of.


Anyone who has not tried Gateron Browns I highly recommend them, even over Cherry Browns, but you need to like minimal resistance and minimal tactical feedback or this switch is not for you.  There is even less of a "bump" than Cherry Browns.

[TalkingTree]

So believe it or not I finally got the space bar switch working.

I saw it coming. Congrats.

higher temps of 300-375 may have caused these tips to burn out prematurely?

Most likely. You're to melt tin not steel. You don't need temperatures this high.

Anyone who has not tried Gateron Browns I highly recommend them, even over Cherry Browns, but you need to like minimal resistance and minimal tactical feedback or this switch is not for you.  There is even less of a "bump" than Cherry Browns.

I don't like MX Browns but I do have the feeling that Gateron is making better switches than Cherry.

[mrbishop]

glad to see you got it working 

[jcoffin1981]

I was reading about a man who claimed to use these temperatures for electronics soldering (300-375) and the higher temps of 375 through the PCB  (what do I know, I'm new at this).  I'm sure that this is how I destroyed the pcb.  Plus, who knows how accurate the temperature gauge on the iron really is.  I actually found that iron set at the lowest possible setting was perfectly adequate and the solder wick far superior even though the solder sucker seems to be much more popular. 

The first couple times I'd use a tip I would get a nice, clean, shiny, even pool of molten solder right where I wanted it to be.  If you look at the images now there are areas where the solder has hardly melted enough.  However, there is really no stress at these joints inside the case.  If I ever get new equipment and have the case open I may redo the poorly done areas, but it seems to be making good connections and holding tight enough for now so I will leave well enough alone.

What sucks is that I ordered a replacement board because I didn't think there was a chance of it working again.  Oh well, now I have two.  I just need practice and some better quality toys to play with.  I have many skills but it's safe to say soldering is not my forte.

Thanks for the words of encouragement and not bashing my obviously terrible job.  But hey, I did a darn good job of soldering the mini-usb port I thought.

[mrbishop]

I was reading about a man who claimed to use these temperatures for electronics soldering (300-375) and the higher temps of 375 through the PCB  (what do I know, I'm new at this).  I'm sure that this is how I destroyed the pcb.  Plus, who knows how accurate the temperature gauge on the iron really is.  I actually found that iron set at the lowest possible setting was perfectly adequate and the solder wick far superior even though the solder sucker seems to be much more popular. 

The first couple times I'd use a tip I would get a nice, clean, shiny, even pool of molten solder right where I wanted it to be.  If you look at the images now there are areas where the solder has hardly melted enough.  However, there is really no stress at these joints inside the case.  If I ever get new equipment and have the case open I may redo the poorly done areas, but it seems to be making good connections and holding tight enough for now so I will leave well enough alone.

What sucks is that I ordered a replacement board because I didn't think there was a chance of it working again.  Oh well, now I have two.  I just need practice and some better quality toys to play with.  I have many skills but it's safe to say soldering is not my forte.

Thanks for the words of encouragement and not bashing my obviously terrible job.  But hey, I did a darn good job of soldering the mini-usb port I thought.

We all start somewhere. Practice makes perfect. Maybe you can build the second board for practice. Where did you order it from btw?

[TalkingTree]

What sucks is that I ordered a replacement board because I didn't think there was a chance of it working again.  Oh well, now I have two.

So? I gave one custom 60% to a friend and already ordered parts for two more for myself. The more the better.
Give a try to different layouts.

[mrbishop]

What sucks is that I ordered a replacement board because I didn't think there was a chance of it working again.  Oh well, now I have two.

So? I gave one custom 60% to a friend and already ordered parts for two more for myself. The more the better.
Give a try to different layouts.

what boards are you ordering?

[TalkingTree]

what boards are you ordering?

GON's, from LeandreN's GB.

[mrbishop]

what boards are you ordering?

GON's, from LeandreN's GB.

oh nice.
i need more PCB's in my life. i have plans for a JD40 and Phantom as well as some i'm designing myself

[jcoffin1981]

what boards are you ordering?

GON's, from LeandreN's GB.

Well, when

What sucks is that I ordered a replacement board because I didn't think there was a chance of it working again.  Oh well, now I have two.

So? I gave one custom 60% to a friend and already ordered parts for two more for myself. The more the better.
Give a try to different layouts.

what boards are you ordering?

what boards are you ordering?

GON's, from LeandreN's GB.

I say replacement I mean replacment... the exact same board!  The manufacturer was sympathetic because supposedly I was the only reported case of key chatter with this series of boards so they gave me a discount.  I know the V60's have had their issues, but this was supposedly the only one with the Gaterons.  They offered to take the board back for a refund but did not know if they would be producing more, so I declined.  They gave me a discount. 

I was buying through Rabbit Web Factory.  I have good and bad things to say about them, but mostly good, very good. 

[rowdy]

Missing right parenthesis - SOLVED

[jcoffin1981]

You  may be curious to know that the replacement  space bar switch is still  chattering. The  only think I can think of to do right  now is to test it on another board  and then wire it to the  V60.   I have extra switches.  The space bar is the WORST key to  chatter.  Think if every 2 or 3 space bara presses it  inserted 2 or 3 extra  spaces....   I don't know  if this is a coincidence or a problem with Gateron in  general.

[TalkingTree]

You  may be curious to know that the replacement  space bar switch is still  chattering.

It could be a board issue.

[jcoffin1981]

You  may be curious to know that the replacement  space bar switch is still  chattering.

It could be a board issue.

You  may be curious to know that the replacement  space bar switch is still  chattering.

It could be a board issue.

This is what the keyboard distributor said to me is that they don't know that the problem is caused by the keyswitch, but if I wanted to here are some switches, knock yourself out. 

So TalkingTree, you think the problem may be elsewhere?  Could you elaborate?  I was certain  from what I thought that this would solve the problem.  Maybe it's not worth any more time or effort, but , but I'm a big DIY'er.

[TalkingTree]

Replacing a faulty switch with another faulty one is some luck but may happen. You could triple check and replace yet another switch. Even better you could try the "faulty" two switches on some other circuit.
If not the switches themselves, the issue might be in the PCB controller.

Did your keyboard always chatter on the spacebar? Have you tried a different OS? (Not different version, entirely different system).
You need to debug a bit.

[jcoffin1981]

I am now getting a "usb device not recognized."  So I will clean all the contacts, melted plastic, flux, solder, make sure there are no shorts and see what happens.  Given the opportunity I could do a much better repair job now, but it may not be repairable.   Worst comes to worst I do have the replacement board coming in a few days and I learned a few things. 

I'd be curious to get feedback from other Gateron owners.  It seems you can get chatter by hitting any switch on the very edge, but in theory the spacebar is kept flat by the stabilizers.

[jcoffin1981]

It seems the problem is at the 5 pin contact of the mini usb with the board.  They are soldered and even under magnification it's hard to tell, but something is mobile.  With proper contact it is recognizable again.  So this is still fixable.  What I need is quality soldering tips.  I think it was you Talking Tree who pointed me to  a link for Amazon Spanish for 5 soldering tips.  I don't know how universal these tips are. Do you think these will work with this iron that I have.  The tips now are all unusuable except for the chisel one which still works well for soldering wick.  This is my iron.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015UC2IVG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

This is what I have now and it is rated well, but I can tell you the tips are not good.  I am willing to pay a good amount of money for tips that allow me to finish the job properly.
I am open for any recommendations.  And talking tree I will take your recommendations into account too about triple checking switches and under different OS, etc.

The spacebar always chattered.  It seems to really test the switch properly, there needs to be keycap attached to it.  I'm not really sure how to do this with a spacebar unless I replace the spacebar on the cherry board with a gateron switch.  I just don't understand, the firmware is supposed to ignore extra keystrokes that occur say before say 15 ms to prevent this problem from ever happening.

BTW, Merry X-mas everyone!!!!  My family celebrates Xmas on Saturday, which is why I am online now.  I used to have VM Ware installed with a Linux Distro and I have not used it for some time.  For some reason it is inoperable.  I can't imagine this is a solution, but I am willing to try.

[TalkingTree]

I am now getting a "usb device not recognized."

Most likely the USB connector.

I do have the replacement board coming in a few days and I learned a few things. 

That's a good thing, you can start out fresh now.

I'd be curious to get feedback from other Gateron owners.  It seems you can get chatter by hitting any switch on the very edge, but in theory the spacebar is kept flat by the stabilizers.

I made a 60% with Gateron Reds for a friend and she never experienced any issue at all.

It seems the problem is at the 5 pin contact of the mini usb with the board.  They are soldered and even under magnification it's hard to tell, but something is mobile.  With proper contact it is recognizable again.  So this is still fixable.

Fixable and easily. Just resolder it. Hold the pin you're soldering down with tweezers or a flathead screwdriver.

  What I need is quality soldering tips.  I think it was you Talking Tree who pointed me to  a link for Amazon Spanish for 5 soldering tips.  I don't know how universal these tips are. Do you think these will work with this iron that I have.

It was me indeed, but those tips are solid while your iron's are hollow (or so it looks), so it won't do.

The tips now are all unusuable except for the chisel one which still works well for soldering wick.  This is my iron.

How unusable? Did they bend or break?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015UC2IVG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

This is what I have now and it is rated well, but I can tell you the tips are not good.  I am willing to pay a good amount of money for tips that allow me to finish the job properly.
I am open for any recommendations.

Ask a question on that Amazon page for compatible tips. Other customers would know better.

The spacebar always chattered.  It seems to really test the switch properly, there needs to be keycap attached to it.  I'm not really sure how to do this with a spacebar unless I replace the spacebar on the cherry board with a gateron switch.  I just don't understand, the firmware is supposed to ignore extra keystrokes that occur say before say 15 ms to prevent this problem from ever happening.

If you think the issue is in the Gateron switch, try a different brand, it shouldn't be hard to get ahold of one single switch.

I used to have VM Ware installed with a Linux Distro and I have not used it for some time.

My keyboard acts funny on Virtualbox, specifically, it won't register modifiers if I hold down the Fn key. Just a heads up in case it happens the same to you.

[jcoffin1981]

The tips now are all unusuable except for the chisel one which still works well for soldering wick.  This is my iron.

How unusable? Did they bend or break?

They are pitted, have sort of white dust on them, even areas with red oxidation (they have not gotten wet).  The tips do no get hot. This is what I mean when they are unusuable.  To use them I have to touch an area of the soldering tip way back that has never been used.  I've tried fluxing them and tinning them, lightly sanding them, and I don't know what else to do.

If I could use them without buying new ones that would be great, but I don't think that would be possible.  Even the radio shack tip is much denser than these and it has more the color of a copper penny than a cheap chrome appearance.  I don't want to spend too much more money doing this, but I'm determined to finish it correctly, just because I can, or can learn to.

I am 85 percent certain that the problem is the switch, I just don't understand how the issue could be any other component, but there are people who know way more about keyboards than I do.  But that's my story and I'm sticking to it till I'm proven otherwise.



I

[TalkingTree]

The tips do no get hot.

The iron might be faulty, can you RMA it?

I am 85 percent certain that the problem is the switch, I just don't understand how the issue could be any other component,

Such issue is either mechanical or electrical. So either the switch or the controller.
Do you have switches from a brand different than Gateron handy?

[jcoffin1981]

That is an interesting theory.  I don't have any other switches at the moment.  I thought the firmware was supposed to be able to filter  out and extra keystrokes that occur too fast for a human to make them.  So whatever the threshold say 25ms, any multiple strokes will count as only one.  This prevents debounce which is supposedly inherrent in any switch.  I don't know how a controller could have a problem with one switch

[TalkingTree]

I thought the firmware was supposed to be able to filter  out and extra keystrokes

Maybe a faulty firmware? Can you reflash it?

Also, I experienced chattering with all keyboards (membrane and mechanical) on Windows due to a bug with the USB 3.0 ports getting and electronical interference by 2,4 GHz radio waves. Basically, either disabling Wi-Fi antennas or installing the proper drivers fixed it. I don't think this is your situation because it only happens with the spacebar, but you can't ever tell with Windows.

[jcoffin1981]

double post

[jcoffin1981]

This problem has been occurring long before I flashed the firmware.  I will give another crack at repairing it with better materials.  Here are some examples.
I'd be curious how to test the individual switches for variance and I would also like to to try a Cherry switch in place of the gateron.  I also need a more methodical way of testing the switches before installing them.a

[jcoffin1981]

There is something else i noticed is that the steell plate is bent right at the space bar.  Now this I DID NOT DO.  Not a chance.  I would not be surprised if that plays a key role in the chatter that I have spent two months trying to sort out.  I took these measurements on the outside of the pcb and steel plate because they are constant.  At the widest place it measures 6.66mm, at the narrowest it measures5.58mm.  That means that the steel plate is bent almost 1 mm closer to the pcb than it it supposed to and this could be big factor.  Here are the images.

Unfortunately, I kind of shot myself in the foot because I opened the case and voided the warranty.  I know for a fact that I did not to that.  Please excuse my lousy camera pictures.  It's time to upgrade.  Please look.  I have a feeling the manufacturer is going to laugh at me when I explain this.  But this  will cause improper support for the switch and even in my newbie mind makes it a prime environment for debounce.  Now mind you, this happened before I ever even opened the case.  I may be learning soldering do's and don'ts and have made a few mistakes, but I have never bent steel plates. It takes a tremendous amount of force to bend this and I am not that negligent.  I sure hope the pictures elucidate my point clear enough.  The bend is exactly under the space bar.

[jcoffin1981]

Having trouble adding more pics... Poor images , but the narrowest area occurs exactly where the space bar switch lies.

[TalkingTree]

There is something else i noticed is that the steell plate is bent right at the space bar. I would not be surprised if that plays a key role in the chatter

I would be surprised if it does not. A deformed support could affect the switch in multiple ways.
You might want to address the issue to the manufacturer.

[Rayoui]

I experienced many issues similar to the ones you have described that ended up stemming from the soldering iron I happened to be using at the time. I was using a Weller SP40NKUS which is a 40w iron and does not have any kind of temperature control. I was constantly burning PCBs, lifting pads and going through tips like you would not believe. Come to find out, the iron was running at about 480c (eek!). Shortly thereafter, I switched to a Weller WES51 which has a proper temperature control circuit and have not had any issues with tips degrading or burned PCBs and I get perfect joints almost every time.

It doesn't take much heat to melt solder, however, the heat has to be able to transfer into the solder to do what it's supposed to. If there is a layer of oxidation insulating either the pad or your iron's tip, heat will not be transferred. It seems you were experiencing this problem as you said your tips were oxidizing quickly (possibly from the iron being too hot or just low quality tips). In response, you increased the heat of your iron which likely only exacerbated the problem, causing the tip to oxidize further while still not conducting heat properly.

You could try using some better quality tips or a different iron which has better temperature control. Try to keep the heat a little lower to avoid corroding the tips as quickly and prevent damage to the PCB. I usually keep my iron set around 350c for this kind of work. Simultaneously heat the pad and pin directly with the tip and flow the solder onto the pad, not the iron. The solder should melt almost instantly. If it does not, remove the iron and investigate what is preventing the heat from transferring properly. Try using some flux on the pad and keep your iron's tip tinned. Clean the tip with one of those brass wool tip cleaners and re-tin the tip. You shouldn't have to leave the tip on the pad for more than a couple of seconds maximum. Using a good rosin-core solder helps as well.

As far as the chattering, there were some issues with the Zealio switches (also manufactured by Gateron) chattering after being soldered if too much heat was applied as the bottom of the casing would melt a little bit around the pins, altering the shape of the leaf inside the switch. I don't have any standard Gateron switches lying around to test so I'm not sure if they also have this issue. Obviously if the original switch was chattering right out of the box this probably isn't its problem but it might explain the replacement switch chattering as well.

More

Note the melting around the pins of the switch on the right.

Good luck with your board!

[jcoffin1981]

I have the replacement board and not a single switch chatters.  I can try bending the steel plate level and see if that has an effect.

[TalkingTree]

I have the replacement board and not a single switch chatters.  I can try bending the steep plate level and see if that has an effect.

Try heating the plate before unbending.

[jcoffin1981]

I have the replacement board and not a single switch chatters.  I can try bending the steep plate level and see if that has an effect.

Try heating the plate before unbending.

I have the replacement board and not a single switch chatters.  I can try bending the steel plate level and see if that has an effect. 

Try heating the plate before unbending.

This is thick steel, it will not be easy.  It's too bad I did not see this in the beginning.  But to bring this to the manufacturer now would be fruitless.  Although they could at least know for QC purposes and what have you.  Maybe I will contact them.

[jcoffin1981]

I experienced many issues similar to the ones you have described that ended up stemming from the soldering iron I happened to be using at the time. I was using a Weller SP40NKUS which is a 40w iron and does not have any kind of temperature control. I was constantly burning PCBs, lifting pads and going through tips like you would not believe. Come to find out, the iron was running at about 480c (eek!). Shortly thereafter, I switched to a Weller WES51 which has a proper temperature control circuit and have not had any issues with tips degrading or burned PCBs and I get perfect joints almost every time.

It doesn't take much heat to melt solder, however, the heat has to be able to transfer into the solder to do what it's supposed to. If there is a layer of oxidation insulating either the pad or your iron's tip, heat will not be transferred. It seems you were experiencing this problem as you said your tips were oxidizing quickly (possibly from the iron being too hot or just low quality tips). In response, you increased the heat of your iron which likely only exacerbated the problem, causing the tip to oxidize further while still not conducting heat properly.

You could try using some better quality tips or a different iron which has better temperature control. Try to keep the heat a little lower to avoid corroding the tips as quickly and prevent damage to the PCB. I usually keep my iron set around 350c for this kind of work. Simultaneously heat the pad and pin directly with the tip and flow the solder onto the pad, not the iron. The solder should melt almost instantly. If it does not, remove the iron and investigate what is preventing the heat from transferring properly. Try using some flux on the pad and keep your iron's tip tinned. Clean the tip with one of those brass wool tip cleaners and re-tin the tip. You shouldn't have to leave the tip on the pad for more than a couple of seconds maximum. Using a good rosin-core solder helps as well.

As far as the chattering, there were some issues with the Zealio switches (also manufactured by Gateron) chattering after being soldered if too much heat was applied as the bottom of the casing would melt a little bit around the pins, altering the shape of the leaf inside the switch. I don't have any standard Gateron switches lying around to test so I'm not sure if they also have this issue. Obviously if the original switch was chattering right out of the box this probably isn't its problem but it might explain the replacement switch chattering as well.

More

Note the melting around the pins of the switch on the right.

Show Image

Good luck with your board!

No kidding?  I'm assuming that the temp control is working.  Even at the lowest setting it's hot enough to melt solder.  I purchased some Hakko tips, a pack of 10, so I'm assuming they are better quality.  But who knows, maybe it is broken and stuck at 400C.  I also purchased a brass wool cleaner. 

It would take a lot of force to bend that steel.  I wonder how it happened.  Hopefully straightening it to the best of my ability will fix it.  But I already have my new board so I'm starting to just feel like saying "screw it."

[jcoffin1981]

Looking at this board, I'm not going to even attempt to straighten it.  I am going to contact the manufacturer.  It would take an exceptional amount of power to do this and to do it without damaging the rest of the board would be difficult at best.