Do Topre hurt your fingers?

[davkol]

I posted in the original discussion.

I bottom out only lightly if at all on anything but stiff clicky Alps [clones], sticky switches and sometimes scissor switches. My fingers hurt from typing only sometimes on [plate-mounted] scissor switches and certain domes (e.g., HHKB), regardless of type of mounting. The problem is likely in the stiffer tactile point and force fall-off (that jacobolus appears to praise). OTOH I enjoy the cloud of boobs on linear switches.

[Neo.X]

The guy who sold me the RF said it hurt his finger and that's why he sold it. 

But I enjoy typing on it, same as on my HHKB.

[CPTBadAss]

So if someone gets finger pain on membrane or MX, then I would guess that a BS board would absolutely kill their hands? The impact from BS is huge compared to other switches, though I really do like them- closest thing to old school typewriter keys.

It's weird. Topre hurts my hands but BS doesn't.

[HeavyArms]

The realforce 87U 55G is the best thing my fingers have ever typed on. Period.

[TheSoulhunter]

Train with Grey MX, your GF will be thankful as well...

[bahamot]

If anything been hurt, it's the wallet. X_x

[HeavyArms]

If anything been hurt, it's the wallet. X_x

Completely worth it though.  You know its true.

[HeavyArms]

Train with Grey MX, your GF will be thankful as well...

lololololol

[SpikeBolt]

Been using a Realforce 45g at work for almost a month, no pain at all. MX Clears did give me terrible pinky pain, though.

[ander]

No, they don't hurt—but after all the fuss, I found them overrated. They're better than standard rubber domes, if for no other reason that they don't immediately start wearing out and getting mushy. But compared to MX-style switches and buckling springs, there's no question they slow me down.

I also find it distracting, even annoying, the way Topres make the most noise when they return to their start positions rather than when you're actually using them. It's like watching a movie whose audio is slightly out of sync.

I don't know why Topres should be more expensive than other good mechanical switches. I think it's largely mystique—only one company makes them, and their KBs look elegant, and the boxes are impressively minimalist (e.g. just the KB's name in the middle). They've created a kind of cult mindset.

But no, Topres don't hurt. Neither do any other switches, in my experience—but it's still a good thing to be able to say about anything.  :?)

[MPZ]

When I tried my first topre (novatouch), my pinky was a tiny bit sore for about 5 minutes after I first used it. However, once I put my thick Leopold PBT caps on it, this went away completely. At the same time, I don't like the feel of the KUL I am typing on right now as much as I liked the Monoprice 9181 that introduced me to mechanical keyboards. So I think maybe it's an issue of plate mounting sensitivity in my case- I suspect I would actually prefer a board without plate-mounted switches. However, I like having function keys (occasionally I play Starcraft), and they don't make a HHKB with 35g switches, so I'm going to see how I like the Noppoo EC108 Pro I have on order from massdrop (plate mounted, but a thin sheet of aluminum AFAIK), and go from there.

Ergonimics are so individual, that discussing them can be difficult but is always interesting

[steve.v]

No, they don't hurt—but after all the fuss, I found them overrated. They're better than standard rubber domes, if for no other reason that they don't immediately start wearing out and getting mushy. But compared to MX-style switches and buckling springs, there's no question they slow me down.

I also find it distracting, even annoying, the way Topres make the most noise when they return to their start positions rather than when you're actually using them. It's like watching a movie whose audio is slightly out of sync.

I don't know why Topres should be more expensive than other good mechanical switches. I think it's largely mystique—only one company makes them, and their KBs look elegant, and the boxes are impressively minimalist (e.g. just the KB's name in the middle). They've created a kind of cult mindset.

But no, Topres don't hurt. Neither do any other switches, in my experience—but it's still a good thing to be able to say about anything.  :?)

Tldr. I stopped after the first sentence. Awesome it doesn't hurt!

[PointyFox]

No, the only time I've ever had any discomfort was going from MX Black to MX Red for the first time and was bottoming out too hard.

[spiceBar]

When I tried my first topre (novatouch), my pinky was a tiny bit sore for about 5 minutes after I first used it. However, once I put my thick Leopold PBT caps on it, this went away completely.
(snipped)

Just to be sure, are you seriously implying a causal link here?

[user 18]

I find topre to be gentler on my hands than MX. Not sure if this is due simply to the switches being lighter (45g novatouch vs stock clears) or some other factor. Using DCS caps on both boards.

[Sygaldry]

No, they don't hurt—but after all the fuss, I found them overrated. They're better than standard rubber domes, if for no other reason that they don't immediately start wearing out and getting mushy. But compared to MX-style switches and buckling springs, there's no question they slow me down.

I also find it distracting, even annoying, the way Topres make the most noise when they return to their start positions rather than when you're actually using them. It's like watching a movie whose audio is slightly out of sync.

I don't know why Topres should be more expensive than other good mechanical switches. I think it's largely mystique—only one company makes them, and their KBs look elegant, and the boxes are impressively minimalist (e.g. just the KB's name in the middle). They've created a kind of cult mindset.

But no, Topres don't hurt. Neither do any other switches, in my experience—but it's still a good thing to be able to say about anything.  :?)

But in all seriousness:

Can we not turn this into a Topre vs. MX thread?

[Kinaesthetic]

Crazily enough for me, Topre actually helped my fingers stop hurting. Used to get awful pain in my index fingers while typing on MX Browns / MX Reds (daily driver was the browns though). Switched to a variable weight Topre Realforce, and my finger pain has been going away ever since. Not to mention my typing has gotten significantly faster and more accurate ever since switching over.

[rowdy]

The only Topre I have, 45g in HHKB, do not hurt my fingers.

In fact they feel quite light - I have a feeling I'd prefer 55g.

[Veridis]

I used to have a Realforce 87u 45g uniform, and Novatouch. Sold both of them after a few months because of finger pain. Before that I used MX switches for 6 years.

It feels like pain from drumming your fingers on a table. I am a programmer and type quite a bit at work. Before bringing in my own keyboard, I used the crappy rubber dome keyboard for 3 months without any issues.

My daily drivers are now Mx browns.

[Oobly]

Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.

It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.

Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.

[Chromako]

So if someone gets finger pain on membrane or MX, then I would guess that a BS board would absolutely kill their hands? The impact from BS is huge compared to other switches, though I really do like them- closest thing to old school typewriter keys.

I'd actually recommend BS keyboards for some people who have finger pain with MX or RD+Membrane keyboards. The tactility gives you a clear signal that there is no need to push the key any further after the actuation point- making it easy to learn to not bottom out. In addition, BS's don't have as severe of a force dropoff on the overtravel portion as Topre's do, which helps make the learning easier.

Therefore, it depends. Is your pain from applying enough force to actuate the switch (in which case BS is of no good here- give a Cherry brown, ergoclear, or blue, or the variable Topre a try), or is the pain from a habit of continuing to apply pressure once bottoming out as crappier RD+membrane keyboards teach you (in which case BS, or to a lesser extent uniform 45g or 55g Topre or Matias Alps, would be helpful). The problem is that MX's don't give nearly as clear of a tactile signal when they actuate (being all variations of  linear switches) making them less useful for the latter group. My being a member of that latter group is why I hated all the Cherry MX switches I tried.
[/size]
[/size]We all type slightly differently and have different physiologies, which would be why keyboarding is a very subjective thing.

[steve.v]

Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.

It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.

Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.

If topre hurts your fingers, you're doing it wrong. Research correct typing techniques.

[Oobly]

Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.

It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.

Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.

If topre hurts your fingers, you're doing it wrong. Research correct typing techniques.

"Does that hurt when you do that? Then don't do that." - Guru Pitka

"You're holding it wrong." - Apple

For some, improving their typing technique will go a long way to alleviating their pain, for others it may not even if they follow every "correct typing" guideline (which is not easy since there are many which contradict each other and some that can be proven to be bad for the long term health of your fingers / wrists / tendons, etc). The simple fact of the matter is that different switch types have different responses and will suit different peoples' typing style and physiology.

[Veridis]

Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.

It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.

Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.

If topre hurts your fingers, you're doing it wrong. Research correct typing techniques.

The problem is the sudden drop-off in resistance which actually makes me bottom out on every keypress. The force of bottoming out is higher than on MX switches too.

Some people can avoid bottoming out, but I can't do that unless I slow down to 10wpm. Other people's fingers are not affected and are able to enjoy the sweet thocking. Unfortunately I am not one of them

[Neo.X]

Is it possible to typing on fast speed (>80wpm) without bottom out on Topre board?

Can someone share a video for this? Really like to see this because for me, it is like a mission impossible.

[jacobolus]

It’s been said before in other threads, though I don’t know if it’s been said here: you don’t have to totally avoid pressing the key to the bottom to avoid finger pain. The problem is not bottoming out per se. The problem is bottoming out hard, with a strong shock at the bottom of every stroke.

Since the rubber dome in a Topre keyboard buckles inward at a certain point, the switch resistance drops quite a bit below its peak resistance until quite near the bottom of the stroke, so it’s pretty hard to completely avoid the bottom. However, if you type with just enough force to get past the tactile point and actuate the switch, and then stop applying as much force after that point, your finger will touch down much more lightly at the bottom of the stroke before being bounced back up by the rubber dome decompressing. (Of course, try to type the same way on a Model M, or an Alps keyboard, etc.)

Try to think of your finger motions as light, springy, airy, like dancing across the keys. Try to avoid motions that feel heavy, like pounding or punching the keys. Follow-through = bad. Think of a volleyball set vs. a spike. Or as an analogy to a swinging arm movement, pretend you’re playing a snare drum, not hammering down a nail.

(Same goes for many other kinds of repetitive motions of course. You don’t want to be stomping down hard when you jog, or you’ll **** up all the joints in your feet and legs.)

[jacobolus]

I bottom out only lightly if at all on anything but stiff clicky Alps [clones], sticky switches and sometimes scissor switches. My fingers hurt from typing only sometimes on [plate-mounted] scissor switches and certain domes (e.g., HHKB), regardless of type of mounting. The problem is likely in the stiffer tactile point and force fall-off (that jacobolus appears to praise). OTOH I enjoy the cloud of boobs on linear switches.

I just really appreciate tactile feedback, which I find helps me type much faster and more accurately. I accept that other people have different preferences.

To give you an idea where I’m coming from, I quite like these clicky switches: Alps plate spring, Marquardt “butterfly” plate spring, IBM beam spring, IBM Model F, SMK “Monterey” clicky, blue and amber Alps, clicky black Hi-Tek “space invaders”, Matias clicky ... but none of them is perfect for me.

What I ideally want is a switch that actuates about 1.2–1.5mm into a 4+mm stroke. I want the force to (linearly?) ramp from maybe 30 grams-force up to peak at about 60–65 grams-force (because of the short pre-actuation travel and force drop at actuation, this requires less work and feels much lighter than a Cherry MX switch with the same peak force), then steeply drop down by at least 15 grams and stay below peak force for maybe 1–1.5mm, before slowly ramping up in the last 1mm of the stroke, not fully bottoming out until 100+ grams-force. At the tactile drop, I want to hear a loud pleasant click sound, and have switch actuation right in the middle of the force drop, so that it’s impossible to get past the tactile/click point without actuating the switch, and also impossible to actuate the switch without clicking. On the upstroke, I want the switch to bounce my finger back upward past the tactile/click point, ideally with higher force than on the downstroke, but the return on beam spring type switches or Topre is also sufficient. The perfect switch should also have no wiggle/wobble, and no appreciable friction. Pressing the switch at an angle should cause it to depress along its usual axis with no sideways motion and no sticking. The switch mechanism itself should have no chatter, and just a slight bit of hysteresis, never missing presses or adding stray extra presses.

To compare that to the switches listed before: I’d prefer if Marquardt, both IBM, Alps plate spring, SMK, and Hi-Tek switches actuated earlier in the stroke and had longer post-actuation travel; if Model F, SMK, Alps, Matias, and Hi-Tek switches had a springier upstroke; if Marquardt, both IBM, amber Alps, and Matias switches were a bit less stiff; if Marquardt, all the Alps, and Matias switches had less wobble; if Alps and IBM beam/plate spring and Hi-Tek switches had a more satisfying sound; if Hi-Tek switches didn’t actuate before their click; if blue Alps, Alps plate spring, and black Hi-Tek had a bit more force drop at the tactile point; if all the switches had a springier stroke bottom; etc.

[rowdy]

Thank you all for your posts! Seems to really be an individual thing, depending on a person's typing style and habits and possibly even their physiology.

It does seem like a fair number of people do experience pain from typing on Topre, though, which I think is valuable information which I had not heard of before the posts in the other thread started popping up.

Topre seems to be the one switch type that people who like post about more than those who don't, creating a slightly unbalanced view for people new to this site. Just my opinion, but from what I have experienced in the last year+ of membership I think is valid.

If topre hurts your fingers, you're doing it wrong. Research correct typing techniques.

"Does that hurt when you do that? Then don't do that." - Guru Pitka

"You're holding it wrong." - Apple

For some, improving their typing technique will go a long way to alleviating their pain, for others it may not even if they follow every "correct typing" guideline (which is not easy since there are many which contradict each other and some that can be proven to be bad for the long term health of your fingers / wrists / tendons, etc). The simple fact of the matter is that different switch types have different responses and will suit different peoples' typing style and physiology.

This, plus desk layout, chair position and height, keyboard position etc. will also contribute towards a comfortable typing experience (or not, as the case may be).

Perhaps raising your chair, or trying a standing desk, might prove surprisingly therapeutic.  Or perhaps not.