Ideus' first hand wired project: On using a vintage NCR set.

[ideus]

Your feedback is very welcome on this small project I have to put to some use a vintage NCR Cherry double shot set, that should be delivered in some days to my door step, yey!. First things first, I like a lot vintage key sets, this one in particular, is an beige one that still has hat style caps, ala IBM, that I love. I know they are not popular anymore, but in some buckle spring boards, but these key caps are Cherry double shots, wow. (Edit: Mr. Henz sold me this nice set, thank you Sir).



The original keyboard they probably were taken was something like this:



What I want is to get as many keys in use in a hand wired keyboard, something in the lines of this, and here is where I would love to hear from you expert fellows and get some feedback on the layout:



The main ideas on it are quite simple, it is something close to the original keyboard where the set should be taken from, it was the "ANSI" version of the era where most enter keys came in an ISO like position, ie, vertical, my layout moved the \| key to the right to have all the symbols in a block to use along with the right shift, for Latex writing and R programming that is optimal, also, the right shift was moved to the far right for easy use, instead of having in in the middle of other keys; then, the bottom row uses the special Alt key in the set, plus a 1.5 key that will be used for Alt Gr, it could be easily replaced with one of the upcoming colored modifiers set by Ghost, that I am also waiting for, as many other fellows are. Finally, the layout has two one unit mods for Fn and the nasty window key, that, unfortunately I use frequently. One special feature is the inclusion of the home key, that has row 4 profile next to the left shift, it could be use for the delete key, that, again, I use a lot.

The plate is prepared and I will quote it as soon as the layout gets in its final version, after the feedback I get. For now Swill's easy to use tool allow me to draw this one:



I will use a Teensy 2 that is very cheap on ebay and a single plate mounted stabilizer set with 7u wire for the space bar.





Let me know what do you think, even it the small project is way too boring for you.

[juahenza]

Very interesting. Cant wait to see more of it 

[suicidal_orange]

No authentic 10u spacebar?! )

Seriously thhough it's an interesting set and your layout looks good, you can always tweak it once it arrives.

Any plans for a matching numberpad?

[henz]

its sad that it hasnt arrived yet Hope it arrives soon.

will follow this thread as im curious to see how this pans out

i did a similar project some time ago, you can read about it here:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71890.0

[ideus]

No authentic 10u spacebar?! )

Seriously thhough it's an interesting set and your layout looks good, you can always tweak it once it arrives.

Any plans for a matching numberpad?

Not a bad idea at all, I may include the numpad to its left, how that sounds? or do you think a separated numpad would be better?

[ideus]

its sad that it hasnt arrived yet Hope it arrives soon.

will follow this thread as im curious to see how this pans out

i did a similar project some time ago, you can read about it here:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=71890.0

Thank you for the link, and worry not about the set, I am positive it would reach me any day now, today maybe?? yey!

[ideus]

Very interesting. Cant wait to see more of it 

Thank you for the positive feedback and I love to hear your opinion on the layout.

[juahenza]

I dont think im even qualified to comment too much since im quite new to the community and to mechanical keyboards. 

I love vintage keyboards, i just received my 1st model m industrial ssk yesterday, and i just love the feel of it even its not as good as some of the modern tuned custom keyboards, its just that the typing experience that caught me.

I like the layout of this piece, its very interesting and unique imo. I believe this is the 1st piece i saw with this kind of layout.
Your layout looks rather "logic" to me but personally i would swap the window key with the alt on bottom left, and i would change the home key to del key,
but that's just my preference.

Good luck with the progress and best of luck! 

By the way, where do you guys find all these rare vintage boards? 

[ideus]

I dont think im even qualified to comment too much since im quite new to the community and to mechanical keyboards. 

I love vintage keyboards, i just received my 1st model m industrial ssk yesterday, and i just love the feel of it even its not as good as some of the modern tuned custom keyboards, its just that the typing experience that caught me.

I like the layout of this piece, its very interesting and unique imo. I believe this is the 1st piece i saw with this kind of layout.
Your layout looks rather "logic" to me but personally i would swap the window key with the alt on bottom left, and i would change the home key to del key,
but that's just my preference.

Good luck with the progress and best of luck! 

By the way, where do you guys find all these rare vintage boards? 

Thank you for the feedback, I will use the home key as del key, but the actual del key in the set is in row 1 profile, that is the only reason I will place that home key there, the window and alt positions are there for pure aesthetic reasons, but I can see what you say about swapping them.

I found this rare vintage set in  a recent sale by my friend henz, he shipped this beauty from Sweden. This findings can only happen in a place like this and DT, and that alone is one of the main reasons I love this community. Welcome to GH, you will love it, either if you want a brand new board, one DIY or a very old one, or even if you just want to read about switches, keyboard technologies of keyboard stuff in general.

[juahenza]

I dont think im even qualified to comment too much since im quite new to the community and to mechanical keyboards. 

I love vintage keyboards, i just received my 1st model m industrial ssk yesterday, and i just love the feel of it even its not as good as some of the modern tuned custom keyboards, its just that the typing experience that caught me.

I like the layout of this piece, its very interesting and unique imo. I believe this is the 1st piece i saw with this kind of layout.
Your layout looks rather "logic" to me but personally i would swap the window key with the alt on bottom left, and i would change the home key to del key,
but that's just my preference.


Good luck with the progress and best of luck! 

By the way, where do you guys find all these rare vintage boards? 

Thank you for the feedback, I will use the home key as del key, but the actual del key in the set is in row 1 profile, that is the only reason I will place that home key there, the window and alt positions are there for pure aesthetic reasons, but I can see what you say about swapping them.

I found this rare vintage set in  a recent sale by my friend henz, he shipped this beauty from Sweden. This findings can only happen in a place like this and DT, and that alone is one of the main reasons I love this community. Welcome to GH, you will love it, either if you want a brand new board, one DIY or a very old one, or even if you just want to read about switches, keyboard technologies of keyboard stuff in general.

Will you post a typing video of the board when you done with it? i think people will wanna see 

[ideus]

I dont think im even qualified to comment too much since im quite new to the community and to mechanical keyboards. 

I love vintage keyboards, i just received my 1st model m industrial ssk yesterday, and i just love the feel of it even its not as good as some of the modern tuned custom keyboards, its just that the typing experience that caught me.

I like the layout of this piece, its very interesting and unique imo. I believe this is the 1st piece i saw with this kind of layout.
Your layout looks rather "logic" to me but personally i would swap the window key with the alt on bottom left, and i would change the home key to del key,
but that's just my preference.


Good luck with the progress and best of luck! 

By the way, where do you guys find all these rare vintage boards? 

Thank you for the feedback, I will use the home key as del key, but the actual del key in the set is in row 1 profile, that is the only reason I will place that home key there, the window and alt positions are there for pure aesthetic reasons, but I can see what you say about swapping them.

I found this rare vintage set in  a recent sale by my friend henz, he shipped this beauty from Sweden. This findings can only happen in a place like this and DT, and that alone is one of the main reasons I love this community. Welcome to GH, you will love it, either if you want a brand new board, one DIY or a very old one, or even if you just want to read about switches, keyboard technologies of keyboard stuff in general.

Will you post a typing video of the board when you done with it? i think people will wanna see 

Of course; but, it may take some time for it to happen, though.

[juahenza]

I dont think im even qualified to comment too much since im quite new to the community and to mechanical keyboards. 

I love vintage keyboards, i just received my 1st model m industrial ssk yesterday, and i just love the feel of it even its not as good as some of the modern tuned custom keyboards, its just that the typing experience that caught me.

I like the layout of this piece, its very interesting and unique imo. I believe this is the 1st piece i saw with this kind of layout.
Your layout looks rather "logic" to me but personally i would swap the window key with the alt on bottom left, and i would change the home key to del key,
but that's just my preference.


Good luck with the progress and best of luck! 

By the way, where do you guys find all these rare vintage boards? 

Thank you for the feedback, I will use the home key as del key, but the actual del key in the set is in row 1 profile, that is the only reason I will place that home key there, the window and alt positions are there for pure aesthetic reasons, but I can see what you say about swapping them.

I found this rare vintage set in  a recent sale by my friend henz, he shipped this beauty from Sweden. This findings can only happen in a place like this and DT, and that alone is one of the main reasons I love this community. Welcome to GH, you will love it, either if you want a brand new board, one DIY or a very old one, or even if you just want to read about switches, keyboard technologies of keyboard stuff in general.

Will you post a typing video of the board when you done with it? i think people will wanna see 

Of course; but, it may take some time for it to happen, though.

Take all the time you need. Please show us some pictures of that gem when it arrive

[neverused]

Why is that teensy rusty? 😲

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[ideus]

Why is that teensy rusty? 😲

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Because it is old? I do not know, either, is the picture a Chinese site posted at ebay. I was wondering the same, LOL, it is suppose they sell new parts.

[ideus]

Other possible layout that takes the Fn keys as well as the sixty section of the set, any thoughts?

[suicidal_orange]

10 FNs is a lot but if you have desk space you've got the caps so may as well use them.

I tried a LHTK briefly and struggled but if you believe Matias' research for their one hand keyboard you should mirror the keys then your muscle memory of which finger does which number will kick in and make the transition easy...

[ideus]

10 FNs is a lot but if you have desk space you've got the caps so may as well use them.

I tried a LHTK briefly and struggled but if you believe Matias' research for their one hand keyboard you should mirror the keys then your muscle memory of which finger does which number will kick in and make the transition easy...

Well, this is the actual legends on the F keys, I do not know why I put them the other way, sorry. Anyway, I made some changes in the bottom row, just let me know which one looks less odd. LOL.

[TalkingTree]

This is super cool. I like the Function-less version better and the only thing I would change is the backspace key. With two 1u keys you gain an additional key which helps on 60% layouts.

Can't wait to see it done.

[ideus]

Thank you for the feedback guys. I'd probably keep this layout:



Features:

The home key is for windows access.
The Ins key at the right of the space bar will work as Alt Gr.
The Del key will be my delete key (Yes, I do a lot of mistakes...)

The rest of the keys will work as their legends indicate.

This layout is 14.75 units in width, it is not the standard 15u like any modern sixty; thus, if you see carefully the entire block is a bit off centered to the left, that is to fit a standard sixty case, like any Poker compatible. I have an acrylic case sitting in a shelve that will take this.

The difference in width is due to the enter key not being the standard ISO enter but a 1u X 2u key, instead, also the backspace is 1.75u instead of 2u and the right shift is 1.5u instead of 1.75u. These differences make unfeasible to convert the backspace to two 1u keys, as it can be done with any standard sixty; besides, I love to use a wider backspace, again, because I do a lot of mistakes. The Alt key is 1.75u instead of the more usual 1.5u modifier for the bottom row, I like the idea to have an Alt and a Control key of exactly the same width, it makes some logic.

When the set gets delivered I will put together a muck up with the keys itself to see how they actually look; then, I will order the Teensy, the diodes and the stabilizers, right now, I just have PCB mounted stabs, so I need some plastics and inserts for the plate mounted one required for the space bar, that at the end will be 6.25u, that will make easier to replace it, if I get bored with the beige color.

Can anyone tell if a Teensy 2 will be enough for 5 rows and 14 columns?
Can someone help with a link or something with some code as an example to program it?

[Fullcream]

I really like what you're planning to do here. Looking forward to see how it turns out.
This is not boring for me!

[ideus]

I really like what you're planning to do here. Looking forward to see how it turns out.
This is not boring for me!

Thanks pal, I decided to go a different route here than I usually do; let me explain, I began buying a Poker, an FC660 and some other off the shelve keyboards, those kept me happy for some time, later, I began to collect some nice key sets, while they were modern and with nice colors, like the Matt's Granite and Skull's, they felt just a bit off, finally I decided to sell all of them, just after I got a couple of GON's PCB that allow me some customization, but at the end, I always was looking for some particular key cap to fit that special layout I want, I was never fully satisfied. In the way I found that the keys that really like me was OG Cherry double shots, even modern GMK do not feel the same to me, they look similar, but they just feel different, therefore I hunted for some OG sets and I got a WoB and a BoW sets that are the only sets that I really use, but the modifiers are a bit off what I need, most of the time. Then I found this set and I said, well, I can adapt it to use with one of my current sixties, but I should filed the 1.25u ]} key, no way, I cannot ruin this thing that is a part of keyboard history, a double shot set in the same design of the BS IBM's, no, it should be kept intact and it should not be mixed with modern modifiers; therefore, the only solution could be to make a hand wired keyboard designed around the set itself, that is why I decided to do this. The only thing that will not belong to the original set will be the space bar, as some wrote, no authentic 10 units space bar, LOL.

[ideus]

The set:



The bottom row is A profile, or row five, that I strongly prefer over B profile, or two row four, one above the other. The alphas are yellowed, that again, just add to its authenticity, LOL.

[suicidal_orange]

Nice idea on the offset plate, you could put a couple of dim LED indicators in the gap?  Not very retro though...

Teensy 2.0 has 21 unused pins so will handle the switches easily, avoid D6 as it has an LED attached.

Caps are looking great except that spacebar - way too clean )

[ideus]

Nice idea on the offset plate, you could put a couple of dim LED indicators in the gap?  Not very retro though...

Teensy 2.0 has 21 unused pins so will handle the switches easily, avoid D6 as it has an LED attached.

Caps are looking great except that spacebar - way too clean )

I am not really into LEDs and that gap is in the narrow side, anyway.

Yeah, the space bar does not match the set at all, I will use one of the upcoming ones in the Retro set, that should go a bit better with the dark beige of the modifiers.

The caps are great, these are the boldest double shots I've ever had, bolder than other OG Cherry sets. They are a bit thinner than more contemporary OG sets, but with a great texture and the sound is awesome. An interesting detail is that F and J do not have any typing aid, neither bars, nor scoops, it is sort of weird. It is a very interesting set and now I will freeze the design of the plate to have it cut.

[ideus]

Final design, its plate is being quoted by the laser shop.

[TalkingTree]

Final design, its plate is being quoted by the laser shop.

Show Image

Will you disclose quote and shipping prices and the name of the manufacturer.

[ideus]

Final design, its plate is being quoted by the laser shop.

Show Image

Will you disclose quote and shipping prices and the name of the manufacturer.

Of course; however, you should be aware that I live in Mexico now.  :D

[juahenza]

Final design, its plate is being quoted by the laser shop.

Show Image

very nice!  :thumb:

[TalkingTree]

Final design, its plate is being quoted by the laser shop.

Will you disclose quote and shipping prices and the name of the manufacturer.

Of course; however, you should be aware that I live in Mexico now. 

Sì, sì. Already aware of that.

[ideus]

Final design, its plate is being quoted by the laser shop.

Will you disclose quote and shipping prices and the name of the manufacturer.

Of course; however, you should be aware that I live in Mexico now. 

Sì, sì. Already aware of that.

If shipping costs from MX to US were not as high as they are, it may be a good source for laser cutting, I am sure that prices are less expensive.

[ideus]

Final design, its plate is being quoted by the laser shop.

Show Image

very nice!  :thumb:

I am thinking in the possibility to cut the plate in Bamboo, or Bamboo finished laminated PVC, like that use in the kitchen cabinets.

[TalkingTree]

If shipping costs from MX to US were not as high as they are, it may be a good source for laser cutting, I am sure that prices are less expensive.

I'm curious about cost details because I've been asked over € 90 for a laser cut aluminum 60% plate around here. I'm pretty much sure it's unreasonably high.

[joey]

If shipping costs from MX to US were not as high as they are, it may be a good source for laser cutting, I am sure that prices are less expensive.

I'm curious about cost details because I've been asked over € 90 for a laser cut aluminum 60% plate around here. I'm pretty much sure it's unreasonably high.

Check out LaserGist.com

[juahenza]

Final design, its plate is being quoted by the laser shop.

Show Image

very nice!  :thumb:

I am thinking in the possibility to cut the plate in Bamboo, or Bamboo finished laminated PVC, like that use in the kitchen cabinets.

nice idea, but careful as the material might face some shrinkage, woods and bamboos shrink. I would suggest to have some sort of support for it, like a metal frame or a screwed-on base support to hold it in shape.

[TalkingTree]

Check out LaserGist.com

That's much much better. Thank you.

[ideus]

Update:

Quoted price for the laser cut, with 1.5 mm stainless steel included: $35 USD (before taxes).
Second thoughts on arrows:

[ideus]

I have decided to try this first, instead of the NCR set. I called it the ISO Sixty Plus, after the arrows in a sixty.







I might try the NCR later, but for now I will wire this layout, instead. Any thoughts?

[TalkingTree]

Are you sure the up arrow between the dot and slash won't make you wanna pull your hair?

[suicidal_orange]

From “I got cool caps and will make a board for them” to “I might try them later”

IMO dedicated arrows on a full 60% are a waste of space aed with a partial bottom row even more so, plus that up arrow where / should be would drive me insane.  You've got FN where shift normally is too (assuming you're ANSI) which could lead to strange things happening...

[ideus]

Back to the drawing board, I listened you guys, and now, I have decided to alter a bit the key caps to adjust them to a more modern layout, the advantage is I can dress this board with a contemporary set, as well as with the NCR. It is not for everyone, it is only my personal take of what would be the best layout for my current needs. As always, your input will be very welcome and it should not have to be positive, LOL.

[juahenza]

Back to the drawing board, I listen you guys, and now, I have decided to alter a bit the key caps to adjust them to a more modern layout, the advantage is I can dress this board with a contemporary set, as well as with the NCR. It is not for everyone, it is only my personal take of what would be the best layout for my current needs. As always, your input will be very welcome and it should not have to be positive, LOL.

Show Image

Looking better!  :thumb:

[ideus]

I am not sure if I should use 1.25 or 1.5 modifiers, what do you think? bellow a mockup with bluegaloo modifiers and a beige set, I am waiting for the 1u row 1 \| key when the HAD adapter kit would be delivered.

[juahenza]

I am not sure if I should use 1.25 or 1.5 modifiers, what do you think? bellow a mockup with bluegaloo modifiers and a beige set, I am waiting for the 1u row 1 \| key when the HAD adapter kit would be delivered.

Show Image

personally i would go for 1.25  ;D

[ideus]

I am not sure if I should use 1.25 or 1.5 modifiers, what do you think? bellow a mockup with bluegaloo modifiers and a beige set, I am waiting for the 1u row 1 \| key when the HAD adapter kit would be delivered.

Show Image

personally i would go for 1.25  ;D

It was my first choice, actually; but, I am not that sure now. What reasons do you have to prefer 1.25u? Mine was the compatibility with pretty much any standard set and considering that now the space bar is 6.25 that makes it easier to find replacement key caps.

[juahenza]

I am not sure if I should use 1.25 or 1.5 modifiers, what do you think? bellow a mockup with bluegaloo modifiers and a beige set, I am waiting for the 1u row 1 \| key when the HAD adapter kit would be delivered.

Show Image

personally i would go for 1.25  ;D

It was my first choice, actually; but, I am not that sure now. What reasons do you have to prefer 1.25u? Mine was the compatibility with pretty much any standard set and considering that now the space bar is 6.25 that makes it easier to find replacement key caps.

the overall looks for 1.25 keys are more balance as there are no uneven space on right side of the top printed part of the cap. i would go for 1.25 if there's no particular reason for 1.5

[ideus]

I am not sure if I should use 1.25 or 1.5 modifiers, what do you think? bellow a mockup with bluegaloo modifiers and a beige set, I am waiting for the 1u row 1 \| key when the HAD adapter kit would be delivered.

Show Image

personally i would go for 1.25  ;D

It was my first choice, actually; but, I am not that sure now. What reasons do you have to prefer 1.25u? Mine was the compatibility with pretty much any standard set and considering that now the space bar is 6.25 that makes it easier to find replacement key caps.

the overall looks for 1.25 keys are more balance as there are no uneven space on right side of the top printed part of the cap. i would go for 1.25 if there's no particular reason for 1.5

wow, I haven't thought on the subject in that way, but sounds very logic, I also like, in this particular case, that the three modifiers at the bottom would be the same size, the control and enter different, as related with its relative importance and the tab and backspace 1.5u.

[juahenza]

I am not sure if I should use 1.25 or 1.5 modifiers, what do you think? bellow a mockup with bluegaloo modifiers and a beige set, I am waiting for the 1u row 1 \| key when the HAD adapter kit would be delivered.

Show Image

personally i would go for 1.25  ;D

It was my first choice, actually; but, I am not that sure now. What reasons do you have to prefer 1.25u? Mine was the compatibility with pretty much any standard set and considering that now the space bar is 6.25 that makes it easier to find replacement key caps.

the overall looks for 1.25 keys are more balance as there are no uneven space on right side of the top printed part of the cap. i would go for 1.25 if there's no particular reason for 1.5

wow, I haven't thought on the subject in that way, but sounds very logic, I also like, in this particular case, that the three modifiers at the bottom would be the same size, the control and enter different, as related with its relative importance and the tab and backspace 1.5u.

at the end, only what suits you best and your liking matters  :))

[ideus]

This would be the same layout; but, dressed with an OG Cherry plus HADitonals kit:



But the Alt legends would be rhomboids instead, yey!


All the keys I would need to use my vintage Cherry beige set on this layout would come with the HADitionals kit:

[ideus]

This would be the black version along with Bluegaloo modifiers: