I can't believe it

[Moistgun]

I am really far from being a hardcore gamer, but I kinda care about the peripherals I have around me as well. Although my mouse I don't care that much about, I just buy one. Might be a mistake?

Try a good trackball for a while and you'll be wondering how you could ever put up with a mouse.

I never found a mouse that isn't very straining and only one model that doesn't make my fingers hurt.  Add to that all their other annoying features, and the only reason they are so common seems to be that no good trackballs were available at the time when mice invaded the realm of peripherals.

A trackball for gaming tho?

Sent from my stinky butt.

trackball for gaming sounds really ****ty. Ive tried a microsoft optical trackball and I cant get used to it. I used it for afew days until I just unplugged it and went back to the mouse. carpal tunnel can suck my ****

It takes more than a couple days to get used to it.  That's what this is all about.  Not which is best or worst.  It's what you are most comfortable with. I can't play fps with a trackball better than a mouse because I have jittery hands, but I can play many genres with a trackball as good or better than with a controller or a mouse.

That doesn't mean anyone else would switch to that and do just as good.

It's all about what you like.

Sent from my local payphone

[lee+]

why they ever stopped making them.

"They" did not stop making them. You can buy a brand new 2016 one manufactured today.

Ok, IBM stopped making them.

Fortunately, you can buy one from Unicomp.  They are not the same, though.

No they aren't but where else are you going to get a keyboard with a unique switch and thick dye-sub PBT keycaps for under $90 xD

That they come at a reasonable price still doesn't make them the same.

I care about how well a keyboard serves its purpose, and that includes more than just the typing on it.  I've been using Model Ms since the early 1990s, the first one being made in 1986.  I have also typed on electrical typewriters made by IBM, and those had excellent keyboards.   Any keyboard has to meet expectations formed by that.  The Model M I got last week is made in 1997, and it is also not the same as earlier ones.

It's really sad that the quality of most things is declining so rapidly over the years.  Nowadays they build cars that cost about 50000 and don't even have decent heating.  If I had bought that new, I wouldn't have put up with that.  Decent heating for cars is even required by law here.  Yet once we're forced to use electrical cars which will cost twice that, we probably won't have any heating at all.  So you can't really say it's about how much quality costs.

I never had a problem with keycaps wearing out, though.  Perhaps some ppl have finger tips like sand paper?

[mike52787]

why they ever stopped making them.

"They" did not stop making them. You can buy a brand new 2016 one manufactured today.

Ok, IBM stopped making them.

Fortunately, you can buy one from Unicomp.  They are not the same, though.

No they aren't but where else are you going to get a keyboard with a unique switch and thick dye-sub PBT keycaps for under $90 xD

That they come at a reasonable price still doesn't make them the same.

I care about how well a keyboard serves its purpose, and that includes more than just the typing on it.  I've been using Model Ms since the early 1990s, the first one being made in 1986.  I have also typed on electrical typewriters made by IBM, and those had excellent keyboards.   Any keyboard has to meet expectations formed by that.  The Model M I got last week is made in 1997, and it is also not the same as earlier ones.

It's really sad that the quality of most things is declining so rapidly over the years.  Nowadays they build cars that cost about 50000 and don't even have decent heating.  If I had bought that new, I wouldn't have put up with that.  Decent heating for cars is even required by law here.  Yet once we're forced to use electrical cars which will cost twice that, we probably won't have any heating at all.  So you can't really say it's about how much quality costs.

I never had a problem with keycaps wearing out, though.  Perhaps some ppl have finger tips like sand paper?

The only issue ive ever had with keycaps was wearing off pad printing. As for model m quality declining, The newest M ive used was a '93 1401. There was a pretty big difference in keyfeel between it and my '87 0131. the '93 1401 was pretty well used though. I was thinking about scoring a unicomp 122, but I realized for about 50$ more I can get a f122. unicomp has its place in the market, but it sure isnt for me.

[lee+]

Try a good trackball for a while and you'll be wondering how you could ever put up with a mouse.

I never found a mouse that isn't very straining and only one model that doesn't make my fingers hurt.  Add to that all their other annoying features, and the only reason they are so common seems to be that no good trackballs were available at the time when mice invaded the realm of peripherals.

A trackball for gaming tho?

How could anyone play a game with a mouse when the mouse is required for steering?

I admit that I can't play games that require Elite type steering with a trackball.  That just does require a good joystick --- which you can't find anymore since over two decades.  I wouldn't even consider trying with a mouse, Elite type steering or not.

[UnFocused]

PS/2 ports transmit an interrupt to the CPU (or south bridge?) that gets processed in priority.  USB devices apparently don't do as well.

Ah, and I'm guessing this may be a problem for gamers?

I've never had a problem typing fast on an USB keyboard or any other type of keyboard with one exception, a DEC VT78. That thing had two 8" floppy drives and I did some data entry on it for a time. I was able to type faster than the characters would show up on the screen, but it must have had a keyboard buffer because all the characters would show up... eventually.

Are you saying that keyboards don't have buffers anymore?

USB keyboards are slow to respond.  If that is a problem depends on what you consider a problem.  I do notice that there is a delay between pressing a key and something happening when I use an USB keyboard.  PS/2 keyboards do not have this delay.  This doesn't merely apply to games, it applies to the overall responsiveness of my computer, and it annoys me when the response is sluggish.

To give you an example, install a slow graphics card and do some web browsing and all kinds of other things you usually do for a week or two.  Then install a fast graphics card and do the same things as before.  You will notce a difference in overall responsiveness.  That is like the difference between an USB keyboard and a PS/2 (or DIN) keyboard.

Some ppl might not notice it at all.  I do.  You probably wouldn't believe how delighted I was when I switched from the USB Unicomp to the Omron keyboard I'm using now just because it's so much more responsive.

Nope, I'm am most certainly not saying that keyboards don't have buffers.

Are you saying that you notice a delay on USB keyboards vs PS/2 keyboards when merely typing? If so, I applaud your superhuman skills!

Note: I do understand the difference between USB & PS/2 in regards to NKRO, USB polling and PS/2 interrupts. Other than NKRO, I don't think most people other than you notice anything.

If the USB delay is so significant, why isn't there a market for PCIe cards with a PS/2 interface? I would think there would be a huge market for such a card for gamers where every picosecond counts.

[lee+]

Most hardcore gamers won't use a model m in the first place because it is 2kro

The only game I found for which that might have mattered is Vendetta.  I can't tell for sure because Vendetta sucks, besides other things, in that your opponent can turn around their ship and shoot you without you seeing any of that happening except that you're being hit when it isn't possible.

So when and how does it matter?  I know I can't play UT2004 with an USB keyboard because USB keyboards are way too slow for that.  How many of the so-called gaming keyboards aren't USB?

[Moistgun]

Most hardcore gamers won't use a model m in the first place because it is 2kro

The only game I found for which that might have mattered is Vendetta.  I can't tell for sure because Vendetta sucks, besides other things, in that your opponent can turn around their ship and shoot you without you seeing any of that happening except that you're being hit when it isn't possible.

So when and how does it matter?  I know I can't play UT2004 with an USB keyboard because USB keyboards are way too slow for that.  How many of the so-called gaming keyboards aren't USB?

2kro doesn't have to do with USB vs p/s2  it's the limitation set by the model ms membrane tech.  Like this could severely limit your ability to even play some simple platformers, forget trying to run diagonally while switching a weapon and reloading fluidly.

[lee+]

Are you saying that you notice a delay on USB keyboards vs PS/2 keyboards when merely typing? If so, I applaud your superhuman skills!

If the USB delay is so significant, why isn't there a market for PCIe cards with a PS/2 interface? I would think there would be a huge market for such a card for gamers where every picosecond counts.

I do notice.

There probably is a market.  Only almost nobody has ventured into it yet.

Other than that, I don't understand why any of these gamers would want an USB keyboard for gaming.  I don't understand either why PS/2 was invented because you can't hotplug it as you could with DIN and serial connectors.  Being hotpluggable is the only advantage that USB has, and that's only over PS/2.


If you want a card:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/PCI-Controller-2x-USB-2-0-2x-PS-2-e853-/310405066372?hash=item4845956e84:g:H9oAAOSwDN1URdsR


I wonder if that's real PS/2 ports or merely an adapter to USB, though.  I definitely want PS/2 and at least one serial port when looking for a mainboard or a computer to buy.  (You can't reasonably configure a switch or a router without a console cable, and they are serial.)

[lee+]

Most hardcore gamers won't use a model m in the first place because it is 2kro

The only game I found for which that might have mattered is Vendetta.  I can't tell for sure because Vendetta sucks, besides other things, in that your opponent can turn around their ship and shoot you without you seeing any of that happening except that you're being hit when it isn't possible.

So when and how does it matter?  I know I can't play UT2004 with an USB keyboard because USB keyboards are way too slow for that.  How many of the so-called gaming keyboards aren't USB?

2kro doesn't have to do with USB vs p/s2  it's the limitation set by the model ms membrane tech.  Like this could severely limit your ability to even play some simple platformers, forget trying to run diagonally while switching a weapon and reloading fluidly.

I know it's not the type of connection that limits how many keys you can press at once.

I suppose it would take four fingers pressing one key each to run diagonally and switch a weapon while reloading it.  (Try switching a weapon while reloading it in rl ...)  Do you really press more than 2 keys at really the same time to do that?  I can see pressing two keys at the same time to run diagonally.  I don't run diagonally like that, though, I run into some direction and steer with the trackball.  I don't remember a game that required one to run precisely diagonally as you only could with the keys.

I can play Descent on a Model M just fine.

[Moistgun]

Most hardcore gamers won't use a model m in the first place because it is 2kro

The only game I found for which that might have mattered is Vendetta.  I can't tell for sure because Vendetta sucks, besides other things, in that your opponent can turn around their ship and shoot you without you seeing any of that happening except that you're being hit when it isn't possible.

So when and how does it matter?  I know I can't play UT2004 with an USB keyboard because USB keyboards are way too slow for that.  How many of the so-called gaming keyboards aren't USB?

2kro doesn't have to do with USB vs p/s2  it's the limitation set by the model ms membrane tech.  Like this could severely limit your ability to even play some simple platformers, forget trying to run diagonally while switching a weapon and reloading fluidly.

I know it's not the type of connection that limits how many keys you can press at once.

I suppose it would take four fingers pressing one key each to run diagonally and switch a weapon while reloading it.  (Try switching a weapon while reloading it in rl ...)  Do you really press more than 2 keys at really the same time to do that?  I can see pressing two keys at the same time to run diagonally.  I don't run diagonally like that, though, I run into some direction and steer with the trackball.  I don't remember a game that required one to run precisely diagonally as you only could with the keys.

I can play Descent on a Model M just fine.

CSGO

[E TwentyNine]

On modern hardware and OS, the responsiveness of a keyboard is due way more to the switch, controller and the hardware the keyboard is attached to than USB vs PS/2.   Most professional gamers use USB keyboards.

Practically speaking, all else being equal you won't notice a difference between USB and PS/2.

And most people don't even know what 2KRO means much less how it may impact their setup.

[UnFocused]

I do notice.

There probably is a market.  Only almost nobody has ventured into it yet.

Other than that, I don't understand why any of these gamers would want an USB keyboard for gaming.  I don't understand either why PS/2 was invented because you can't hotplug it as you could with DIN and serial connectors.  Being hotpluggable is the only advantage that USB has, and that's only over PS/2.


If you want a card:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/PCI-Controller-2x-USB-2-0-2x-PS-2-e853-/310405066372?hash=item4845956e84:g:H9oAAOSwDN1URdsR


I wonder if that's real PS/2 ports or merely an adapter to USB, though.  I definitely want PS/2 and at least one serial port when looking for a mainboard or a computer to buy.  (You can't reasonably configure a switch or a router without a console cable, and they are serial.)

My motherboard has a PS/2 port, so I'll hook up one of my Model Ms at the same time as my Phantom and see if I notice anything.

I'd guess IBM was going for a smaller connector and the ability to use a non-serial mouse without needing a card card in the computer. PS/2 is electrically the same as the older AT / DIN connector and neither was designed to be hotpluggable. You could usually get away with doing it, but it was certainly not advisable.

[lee+]

If professional gamers use USB keyboards, then why do they do that?  Is it because they are more easily available or because USB has advantages?  If it has advantages, which are they?

I need to correct myself, though.  USB also has the advantage that you can have more devices connected at the same time.


If there is no difference between DIN and PS/2, how come you never get away with hotplugging  PS/2?

[UnFocused]

If there is no difference between DIN and PS/2, how come you never get away with hotplugging  PS/2?

You can get away with hotplugging PS/2 and AT/DIN, but that does not mean you should because it was never designed for hotplugging and there's a risk to doing so.

I've done it without problem. I've done it and had to reboot the machine to get the computer to recognize the keyboard. I've seen motherboards with blown controller chips from people who tried to do it.

My current (2015) motherboard has a PS/2 port, but I've never used it. Prior to my current build, I made sure to buy motherboards with PS/2 ports because I was exclusively using Model M keyboards and I liked plugging them directly in without a PS/2 to USB adapter. I now have a Phosphor Glow controller in one of my M's and a Teensy in my Model F. I simply have no need for PS/2 any longer and no longer care about that antiquated port.

For the vast majority of people, USB is far superior to PS/2.

 

[lee+]

I never got away with hotplugging PS/2 and never had a problem doing it with DIN.

USB is not superior to PS/2.  It's a different way of connecting devices, with its own disadvantages and advantages.

[ander]

And even if Model M's did have 2KRO, what gamers would want to use buckling springs? Unless maybe they were playing an old adventure game about guys in white shirts and ties installing IBMs.

[y11971alex]

And even if Model M's did have 2KRO, what gamers would want to use buckling springs? Unless maybe they were playing an old adventure game about guys in white shirts and ties installing IBMs.

I enjoy playing platform games with buckling springs.  You don't need to know how quickly you're pressing a button, but you need to be able to control precisely when the button presses.

[mike52787]

And even if Model M's did have 2KRO, what gamers would want to use buckling springs? Unless maybe they were playing an old adventure game about guys in white shirts and ties installing IBMs.

I use my model F to play games, whats wrong with using BS to play games?

[romevi]

And even if Model M's did have 2KRO, what gamers would want to use buckling springs? Unless maybe they were playing an old adventure game about guys in white shirts and ties installing IBMs.

I use my model F to play games, whats wrong with using BS to play games?

It's BS.

[1391406]

Buckling Spring was never an impediment to my playing BF4.

[chyros]

Buckling Spring was never an impediment to my playing BF4.

BS is okay for most genres of games including mid-requirement ones like FPS games. I've found them quite lacking in games with high precision requirements though, especially fighting and racing games. I think Super Meat Boy wasn't all that easy to play on them either IIRC.

[dante]

Brand-new Model Ms are not that rare .

The word "rare" gets thrown around a lot.  Rare should mean, here is a big suitcase of cash if you can find me item ABC.  No?  Well then it's rare!

[klennkellon]

I can't stand gaming on a Model M so I just use these Matias for everything now. The 2KRO, heavy weight, and click, all annoy me during my intense games of TF2.

[Moistgun]

I can't stand gaming on a Model M so I just use these Matias for everything now. The 2KRO, heavy weight, and click, all annoy me during my intense games of TF2.

Do you work for Mathias lol.  You should rep for them

[fohat.digs]

The word "rare" gets thrown around a lot.  Rare should mean, here is a big suitcase of cash if you can find me item ABC.  No?  Well then it's rare!

My minimal definition of "rare" is:

Does an item such as this turn up for sale on ebay more than once a month (quarter/year/decade)?

If the answer is "yes" then it may be "scarce" or "desirable" but it is certainly not "rare" ....

[ander]

I enjoy playing platform games with buckling springs.  You don't need to know how quickly you're pressing a button, but you need to be able to control precisely when the button presses.

Good point. There are games that hinge on rapidly repeated key presses (so-called "key mashers"), for which BS boards would probably not be ideal tools. But games like those clearly lack the subtlety that generally appeals to BS users in the first place. For example, there must be some BS boards that are used in trailer parks, but they're going to be the exception.

I use my model F to play games, whats wrong with using BS to play games?

Come to think of it, a Model F probably would be a better gaming board than an M, as it'd be a bit quicker. Huh, never thought of that. (By saying that, I realize I'm taking a chance on raising the hackles of the pro-M, anti-F faction... So be it.)

It's BS.

BS on springs! There's a good cartoon idea. Only KB maniacs would get it, though.

[fohat.digs]

\
a Model F probably would be a better gaming board than an M, as it'd be a bit quicker.

I am not a gamer, but Fs are NKRO and Ms are limited in rollover.

[ander]

Imagine those guys in white shirts and ties not putting gamers first back in the '80s... What were they thinking?

[y11971alex]

I enjoy playing platform games with buckling springs.  You don't need to know how quickly you're pressing a button, but you need to be able to control precisely when the button presses.

Good point. There are games that hinge on rapidly repeated key presses (so-called "key mashers"), for which BS boards would probably not be ideal tools. But games like those clearly lack the subtlety that generally appeals to BS users in the first place. For example, there must be some BS boards that are used in trailer parks, but they're going to be the exception.

I use my model F to play games, whats wrong with using BS to play games?

Come to think of it, a Model F probably would be a better gaming board than an M, as it'd be a bit quicker. Huh, never thought of that. (By saying that, I realize I'm taking a chance on raising the hackles of the pro-M, anti-F faction... So be it.)

Are there such people? 

Did IBM users perceive a downgrade when they unboxed shiny new PS/2 and binned their PC/AT?

[ander]

Come to think of it, a Model F probably would be a better gaming board than an M, as it'd be a bit quicker. Huh, never thought of that. (By saying that, I realize I'm taking a chance on raising the hackles of the pro-M, anti-F faction... So be it.)

:eek: Are there such people? 

Yes, and their name is Snowdog993.  :?)

Did IBM users perceive a downgrade when they unboxed shiny new PS/2 and binned their PC/AT?

I vaguely remember sensing that, but the AT's increased capabilities were sufficiently distracting. And for many, the M's more "up-to-date" look may have created the impression it was newer technology (which it was, technically).