So who's using a hot swappable board?

[jcoffin1981]

I see these are available now and it's a novel idea.  I'm just wondering how it's catching on in the community.  All the die-hard DIY's probably like the whole ritual of soldering and desoldering. 

I just tore down a FC660M with the stock MX-Browns and put in Box Burnt Orange switches.    They are kind of, meh.  I do think i like the shorter travel distance and actuation, and they are nice and tactile, but they are fatiguing.  I'm finding I'm missing a lot of characters because I'm not pressing hard enough on  the keys.  So, I'll probably just stick it in a closet, or tear it down again and put in Gaterons or BOX Browns.  But that is several hours of labor down the drain. 

I was just thinking it would be great to swap out the switches in 10 minutes.         

[HungerMechanic]

I had the same experience with Burnt Orange, so I switched to BOX Browns. They are much better, for me. The relatively crisp tactility is there, without the heavy spring drawing away from it.

WRT hotswap, it's very popular, but especially among new people who aren't sure what switches they like. I've seen many hardcore enthusiasts eschew hotswap because it is perceived to have lower reliability and worse feel. The reliability issue is true, a hotswap socket is probably more likely to die than a good soldered switch. I'd say a decent HS keyboard has about 70 swaps per socket before you start to run into real problems.

The feel issue is more contested. I think the problem is that HS is only offered in a few mount styles. This means that some of the fancier, and more preferred mounting styles are not available in hotswap. Also, hotswap PCB means fewer available layouts, which is key to many people. For people concerned about mounting style and layout, HS can be a very big problem.

Also, HS really is looser / more wobbly in my experience. The switches may not feel as definite as they should. Tactility may suffer somewhat, in my experience. For casual typing, I find it doesn't really matter that much, though. HS is a great way to experiment. When you find what you like, you can solder a board.

[HungerMechanic]

I should add that BOX switches are great candidates for hotswap. They're already 3-pin instead of 5-pin, so you don't have to clip away the PCB-pins. And BOX tactiles may need regular replacement for when they lose lube and turn clicky.

I saw someone on Deskthority build a cheap wood-cased hotswap keyboard from KPRepublic along with the BOX Browns it came with. Most people who tried to build that particular model failed, but his turned out alright. He used SA Dasher/Dancer and it looked great.

What you're supposed to do these days is use hotswap as your test KB and then solder when you know what you want. Solder/Desolder for testing is largely a thing of the past.

[Leslieann]

I've been switching back and forth between hot swap and my Filco.

I've been using the hot swap while I test switches and springs and wait for boards to come back in stock. I've had trouble getting light enough springs and they've been killing my fingers.


Hot Swap has been about what I expected, nice, but still a massive compromise in other ways. I've damaged several switches putting them in and it's only a matter of time before one gets ripped off the pcb.

[Leslieann]

I should add that BOX switches are great candidates for hotswap. They're already 3-pin instead of 5-pin, so you don't have to clip away the PCB-pins. And BOX tactiles may need regular replacement for when they lose lube and turn clicky.

That has nothing to do with the switch but how the switch is intended to be used. Plate mount switches are 3 pin, PCB mount switches are 5 pin. Some companies only make one or the other, some make both.

While you can clip them, there's nothing stopping hot swap PCB makers from adding holes so PCB switches can be used, I've complained about this in the past. It's actually STUPID for a hot swap PCB not to support PCB based switches because those extra pins would help align the switch better, protecting the switch, hot swap and more importantly the PCB. They're screwing themselves and users by not taking advantage of those extra pins and what also stinks is if you have expensive switches and then do want to use them in a plate-less board all your extra alignment pins are now missing.

It hurts clipping legs off Zeal switches just so you can temporarily install them.

[CustomerSupport]

I've been using a hotswap Tokyo60, and have 2 hotswaps on the way. I had the Tokyo60 less than a year, but I've used it enough that I feel I can say that I can't see much of a difference typing on it versus my FC750

[adsimilisjesu]

i'm one of the n00bs that hunger mechanic is referring to. i am trying out a ton of different switches to find what i like most. it's much better for me than hunting down $200 keyboards just to try a switch or having to take the time to solder a set on every couple of weeks.

since hot swapping, i have found both linears and tactiles that i like much better than stock cherry mx switches. the goal is to find a few favorites and build something similar to a topre variable weight keyboard, where i have the exact switch i want for each key press. yes, i know that sounds insane

[hvontres]

i'm one of the n00bs that hunger mechanic is referring to. i am trying out a ton of different switches to find what i like most. it's much better for me than hunting down $200 keyboards just to try a switch or having to take the time to solder a set on every couple of weeks.

since hot swapping, i have found both linears and tactiles that i like much better than stock cherry mx switches. the goal is to find a few favorites and build something similar to a topre variable weight keyboard, where i have the exact switch i want for each key press. yes, i know that sounds insane

Nope, sounds about right for this group

[hvontres]

Since I am just getting started, I am also a bit overwhelmed by all the choices. So I am going to build one or two of these to use as extended switch/keycap testers:
https://github.com/mattdibi/yampad

I figure this way I can test switches and keycaps in a more realistic environment, but I don't need to buy more than one bag of switches at first. Plus, a lot of kits have seperate numpad kits, so I won't need to invest a bunch of money on a profile I haven't tried before.

[unnome]

Premises
- I'm very new in the hobby (keyboard count = 2)
- This is just a data-point for OP: I just want to give my perspective why I went hot-swap from day 1 to OP. If you have advice for me on doing things differently, they are of course welcome as long as they are civilized.


I use an Idobo 75 (hot-swappable ortho) for a month or so. I can swap the entire switch set in ~15 minutes which for people new in the hobby like me, allows me to experiment switches more confidently (low risk of messing pcbs) and efficiently (time saving).

All the die-hard DIY's probably like the whole ritual of soldering and desoldering. 

I don't own a soldering set, nor I know what is referred as "the ritual of soldering and desoldering". I have discordant feelings about this because I missed an opportunity to learn something new such as soldering, while on the other hand I also feel it saves he the effort of needing to do so.

As of today, I do not intend to buy a soldering kit. My next purchase will likely be a hot-swap pcb with classic layout (ideally between 65% and TKL) to complement the ortho I'm currently using (and loving). After that, I'll likely purchase another hot-swap split layout until I have all the layouts I find promising. I think this approach allows me to build a keyboard layout taste in a fast way.

[HungerMechanic]

That has nothing to do with the switch but how the switch is intended to be used. Plate mount switches are 3 pin, PCB mount switches are 5 pin. Some companies only make one or the other, some make both.

While you can clip them, there's nothing stopping hot swap PCB makers from adding holes so PCB switches can be used, I've complained about this in the past. It's actually STUPID for a hot swap PCB not to support PCB based switches because those extra pins would help align the switch better, protecting the switch, hot swap and more importantly the PCB. They're screwing themselves and users by not taking advantage of those extra pins and what also stinks is if you have expensive switches and then do want to use them in a plate-less board all your extra alignment pins are now missing.

It hurts clipping legs off Zeal switches just so you can temporarily install them.

I agree that hotswap keyboards should have supported 5-pin switches from the beginning, and have always felt that way.

However, I'm just commenting on the situation as it exists. Most hotswap keyboards are plate-mount, and so Kailh BOX switches are easily and readily used with them. And the fact that those switches may require maintenance or replacement just adds to the utility of hotswap.

I also had to clip Zeal switches to fit in 3-pin hotswap, and it was really irksome. I found myself asking the same question, "Why can't these support PCB-mount?" But I don't usually comment on it, because it's just a reality that most HS keyboards are 3-pin. I figure more manufacturers will start to offer 5-pin HS in order to supersede their competition.

Hot Swap has been about what I expected, nice, but still a massive compromise in other ways. I've damaged several switches putting them in and it's only a matter of time before one gets ripped off the pcb.

Yeah, I have a TeamWolf Zhuque that I'm basically treating as an expendable switch-tester. The right shift-key is starting to give some problems, only working if I really pound the switch into it. Some letters, too. I'm almost done testing tactile switches, so it just needs to last me a few more rotations.

[HungerMechanic]

Premises
- I'm very new in the hobby (keyboard count = 2)
- This is just a data-point for OP: I just want to give my perspective why I went hot-swap from day 1 to OP. If you have advice for me on doing things differently, they are of course welcome as long as they are civilized.


I use an Idobo 75 (hot-swappable ortho) for a month or so. I can swap the entire switch set in ~15 minutes which for people new in the hobby like me, allows me to experiment switches more confidently (low risk of messing pcbs) and efficiently (time saving).

All the die-hard DIY's probably like the whole ritual of soldering and desoldering. 

I don't own a soldering set, nor I know what is referred as "the ritual of soldering and desoldering". I have discordant feelings about this because I missed an opportunity to learn something new such as soldering, while on the other hand I also feel it saves he the effort of needing to do so.

As of today, I do not intend to buy a soldering kit. My next purchase will likely be a hot-swap pcb with classic layout (ideally between 65% and TKL) to complement the ortho I'm currently using (and loving). After that, I'll likely purchase another hot-swap split layout until I have all the layouts I find promising. I think this approach allows me to build a keyboard layout taste in a fast way.

Thanks for the data point! It makes it easier for people to test and try out new things if they don't have to worry about soldering. It's really lowered the barriers for entry, which has actually upset some people.

i'm one of the n00bs that hunger mechanic is referring to. i am trying out a ton of different switches to find what i like most. it's much better for me than hunting down $200 keyboards just to try a switch or having to take the time to solder a set on every couple of weeks.

since hot swapping, i have found both linears and tactiles that i like much better than stock cherry mx switches. the goal is to find a few favorites and build something similar to a topre variable weight keyboard, where i have the exact switch i want for each key press. yes, i know that sounds insane

I think that hotswap really changed things for new people. It used to be, you'd have to get equipment and learn how to solder in order to properly test typing or gaming with some switches. You might buy some cheap Gateron yellows, try to lube them, and then solder them into a cheap 60% kit. That's how you could tell whether to build them into a more expensive keyboard. You might end up with numerous cheap keyboards you soldered to test switches, selling them on MechMarket I guess. I've seen people doing that. It's still a good idea.

But with hotswap, you just buy the cheapest hotswap keyboard you can find. Mine was a $46 Zhuque and a $38 GMMK, thanks to a Black Friday sale. Today, you might look for a Rakk Lam Ang. Then, you can rapidly test whatever switches you want. Whenever I rushed or skipped this process, I ended up with regret. I tested Zilent V2s, but then had a keyboard soldered with the more tactile Aqua Zilents, which felt somewhat different. Just because I was in a hurry and got a deal, and didn't want to test the Aquas. And I got a full 104-key board built with heavy Ergo Clears, even though I only tested two on HS. So that was dumb. Now I test switches more extensively before there is a real build.

Hotswap has become a new intermediate step for many people involved with keyboards. So instead of "Cherry MX disappointment > learn2solder > cheap build > good build" it's now "Cherry MX disappointment > hotswap test > learn2solder > cheap build > good build."

Some people, like unnome above, will be content to use hotswap for an extended period. Other people are using it as a testbed before it is time to learn soldering. Soldering these days is considered as a more permanent solution that demonstrates you know what kind of switches, layout, mount style, etc... you want. Like starting a family after you become financially stable. (In the same way that marriage has become a kind of "trophy" for stable middle-class couples.)

[-Jerry-]

I’ve had both and am using a pair of hotswap boards at the moment, but I prefer soldered boards generally. It’s nice to have a hotswap board if you want to test switches, as Leslieann said, but I’ve also had the most problems with hotswap boards. I’ve had a board where two of the sockets came off and had to do some janky hand wiring to restore function to those keys.

I definitely feel more secure with soldered boards, in general, especially when it comes to changing keycaps. I always pull out a couple of switches when changing caps on my HS60 based board and there’s always a 10% chance of getting bent pins you have to straighten back out when you reinsert them.

[jamster]

Just a couple of different perspectives to some points throughout this thread.

I've been hobby soldering for a while now and enjoy it, but view desoldering a hundred or so switches as a massive, tedious, chore. With manually operated tools, it's slow, frustrating and potentially ends in a wrecked board (I've done this). I have no urge whatsoever to desolder another board just for switch replacements.

Secondly, unlike @HungerMechanic above and possibly going against prevailing wisdom on GH, I am fairly easily satisfied with switch choices. I've tried switches on a tester, or even just held in my hand, and have managed to end up with entirely satisfactory long term choices. The only board that took me a long time to decide on was a BTC electro capacitive board, which I kept tellling myself that I should like, when I really didn't (an aside, don't buy a BTC5100 expecting that it will be anywhere comparable to  as Topre or even other good, modern, electro capacitive clones)

It recently struck me that that I do have a hotswap board, or rather something that is considerably more sophisticated (magnetised standalone housings for individual switches, not some jury-rigged arrangement with sockets attached to a PCB). I'm tempted to try some new switches (the Everglides in my tester feel pretty good), but honestly I'm happy with what I already have-  anything else will likely just be an interesting sidegrade.

[funkmon]

I have a hot swappable board, but I basically never use it. I have Box Pinks in it right now, but the only good (sharply tactile clicky) switches that are compatible seem to be the box clicky thingies, which are good, but not good enough IMO.

I only have one so if someone comes along and tells me that some switches have come along that are appreciably better than the standard MX design, by my metrics, like tactility and junk, I can try them.

[Maledicted]

It makes it easier for people to test and try out new things if they don't have to worry about soldering. It's really lowered the barriers for entry, which has actually upset some people.

I don't think that's actually the case. Hot swap has its place, it just isn't a permanent setup you should keep around as a daily driver for years on end. The more people use a hot swap board as a gateway into the hobby, the better. Demand drives supply, supply brings prices down. People get passionate about pointing out all of the disadvantages of hot swap, but I think it is almost always with cautionary warning in mind.

I've been hobby soldering for a while now and enjoy it, but view desoldering a hundred or so switches as a massive, tedious, chore. With manually operated tools, it's slow, frustrating and potentially ends in a wrecked board (I've done this). I have no urge whatsoever to desolder another board just for switch replacements.

I particularly like a good number of boards that only come with crappy MX switches. Besides the fact that it is kind of fun to have a completely unique keyboard that was once OEM. I do agree that desoldering and swapping switches is a major chore, regardless of how nice of tools you have. Sometimes it is worth it to me though, even if I always dread it. I think I have put box switches in something like 5 separate retail boards now, one being from the 1980s, which I find especially entertaining.

[jcoffin1981]

What are the feelings on the Drop Alt board?  I'd like to get it, but seems a stiff price tag for something possible less reliable.

[Leslieann]

I don't think that's actually the case. Hot swap has its place, it just isn't a permanent setup you should keep around as a daily driver for years on end. The more people use a hot swap board as a gateway into the hobby, the better. Demand drives supply, supply brings prices down. People get passionate about pointing out all of the disadvantages of hot swap, but I think it is almost always with cautionary warning in mind.

This.
However, my fear is companies are going to cater to these people, companies love selling disposable products and we won't be able to get solder boards.

[jamster]

What are the feelings on the Drop Alt board?  I'd like to get it, but seems a stiff price tag for something possible less reliable.

Personally, I would factor other things before very untested 'possible less reliable' worries, which are going to depend on things like how frequently you swap switches, and whether you decide just to solder right over the sockets.

Low profile, lighting and general aestheics, lack of cable routing, angles. All these seem more relevant than largely hypothetical reliability concerns.

[jcoffin1981]

What are the feelings on the Drop Alt board?  I'd like to get it, but seems a stiff price tag for something possible less reliable.

Personally, I would factor other things before very untested 'possible less reliable' worries, which are going to depend on things like how frequently you swap switches, and whether you decide just to solder right over the sockets.

Low profile, lighting and general aestheics, lack of cable routing, angles. All these seem more relevant than largely hypothetical reliability concerns.

Touche.  I think the board looks pretty dope.  I'm not really into lighting, but mind it if it's aesthetically pleasing.  Cable routing is not a concern.  I guess my biggest concern is installign and using the firmware.

[jamster]

Installation is about as simple as humanly possible, it's not like you have to solder. And it's QMK, seems to be the most commonly demanded firmware around. Doesn't sound like it could be any simpler unless you bought a stock board with no switch changing options and no configuration changes.

[Leslieann]

What are the feelings on the Drop Alt board?  I'd like to get it, but seems a stiff price tag for something possible less reliable.

Assume it lasts a year (arbitrary number pulled from thin air)..
Is $200 too much for you to spend on a keyboard that lasts a year or do you need to know it will last 5 years?

On paper it has everything, but paper isn't real world. If it's too much, go look at the GMMK.

[HungerMechanic]

It makes it easier for people to test and try out new things if they don't have to worry about soldering. It's really lowered the barriers for entry, which has actually upset some people.

I don't think that's actually the case. Hot swap has its place, it just isn't a permanent setup you should keep around as a daily driver for years on end. The more people use a hot swap board as a gateway into the hobby, the better. Demand drives supply, supply brings prices down. People get passionate about pointing out all of the disadvantages of hot swap, but I think it is almost always with cautionary warning in mind.

Yes, that's true. I over-extended my comment about lowering barriers to entry. I was excited about some new switches that just arrived, but that are still in quarantine, so I was getting fidgety.

Hotswap has lowered barriers to entry. But the comments from experienced people are, as you say, cautionary rather than elitist. It's a little different on Discord, where some openly gatekeeping comments are made WRT to hotswap, but in general people are just trying to warn others about the disadvantages of hotswap.

What are the feelings on the Drop Alt board?  I'd like to get it, but seems a stiff price tag for something possible less reliable.

You should go with the negative and cautionary comments here about the Drop Alt. It really isn't made for the true 'enthusiast' market. It checks a number of boxes, sure. But the PCB really is that bad. It's not a simple and robust design that inspires confidence.

I've seen people with high-end stuff buy the Drop Alt and be disappointed. I think it's something that is made to meet certain paper requirements, but doesn't represent true value in the way a KBD67 does. It's like an affordable car with a significant problem or two, instead of an affordable car that gets the job done without problems. The PCB and stabs are subpar, which is an issue on a $200 keyboard.

If I wanted a relatively expensive and fancy hotswap keyboard, I would get the KBD67 hotswap [although it has split backspace] or the Monstargear xo V3 [if they have improved the stabs in V3]. Otherwise, I would get the cheapest hotswap board that works, and wait until manufacturers sort out their issues.

[HungerMechanic]

Here are the problems with the Drop ALT. For people who are used to actually-good keyboards, these things will leave them with dissatisfaction:

1. PCB. The PCB is a jumbled mess of traces, and the board has a history of PCB failure. It does not look like the kind of simplicity that is derived from clarity of mind.

2. Stabilizers in the past have been rattly, and I don't know how much they have improved. They need modding and lubing even today. Some reviews from 2020 suggest that the stabilizers are still bad.

3. The board sounds hollow because of a PCB gap and requires foaming or other acoustic dampening.

4. The LEDs are north-facing, which means that Cherry-profile keycaps will bang against them. This is a big no-no among enthusiasts. 


Also, a lot of people are complaining about the QMK firmware.

At the surface level, the board seems great. It has a good layout, RGB, it's portable. But it also has these underlying problems that people try to avoid when they are building keyboards.

The people that like the Drop ALT are frequently upgrading from gaming keyboards, in which the ALT would seem like a breath of fresh air. But it's not up to the quality of what people here are building.

[CarnageHimura]

Ok, I'll no try to defend the Drop ALT, and all your points are true, but, I'm only have a concenr here, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people, don't mind if they buy a $60dlls kit on AliExpress or a Rama or Keycult case and PCB, they Clip and Lube their stabs, why is so huge problem do it on the ALT also? yes, they are bad, but, after clipping, lubbing and band-aid mod, they sound and feel very good, the same thing with the acustic dampening, a lot of people use this in a lot of keyboards, but only on the alt it's something bad that you need to do it, and this not only happens on cheap kits, I'm sure you are going to tell that the alt is very expensive to also need to modify it, but come on, I've seen builds with 1K worth in parts and they mod the stabs and put acoustic dampening, why the hate?

The north-facing leds is actually a problem, jejeje, I don't have any comment about that.

And, about the Firmware, yes the Drop configurator is limited compared to the QMK configurator, but at this time, you can find the ALT on the QMK configurator, or, is this bad too? I've seen on Pleasure Tek youtube channel that you can even write your own firmware from scratch with visual studio code, so, I really don't understand why is diferent to another QMK keyboards.

This is not a rant, they are legit questions that I have! and for the reliability, I really hope it last's more than a year...

[treeleaf64]

It's not bad entry level in stock hotswap option   for its price

but Enthusiast know that it has problems


treeleaf ~

[HungerMechanic]

What Treeleaf said.

There's a lot of people who will be happy with it. There are other people who won't be able to look past its flaws.