At what point in the design process should I post an IC?

[ladrigon]

I am designing a keyboard and would ask for advice on at what point in the design process to post an interest check/how done should the keyboard be before posting? I am asking this because I don't know if I should get to designing the PCBs and finalizing the finer details of the case design or post the IC to see if there is any interest.

[Sup]

When you have a prototype to show.

[Findecanor]

I think that should also have got in touch with factories that could manufacture it in bulk and got a few pricing quotes from them.
A long time ago in another hobby, I threw up an IC for something that I had got prototyped in a local shop, only to have to withdraw the IC when I discovered I couldn't get it made in bulk in the time/cost constraints I had envisioned.

[clonetropboi]

I think that you should post an IC once you have most things sorted out. Things like price, release dates, units available, vendors, and prototypes are optional, but they give you more credibility. In my opinion, you should get a prototype (proof of concept) after the design is final, and before you bring it to IC or to vendors.

[Leslieann]

Everything.
Basically be ready to post the group buy, get final samples (not prototypes, finished examples of the final product) and start taking orders, or as close as you can get to that point.

I don't think anything less shouldn't even be allowed.
You need to prove you can get it made, not just make a pretty picture.

[Pylon]

When you have a solid concept and at least some renders (or photos of a proto), so that you can present your idea clearly and people understand what you're going to make. I don't think you need anymore for an interest check. It's there to check if people would be interested, and for people to give feedback. If you can carry across your idea and concept with just a render, then that's totally fine.

Everything.
Basically be ready to post the group buy, get final samples (not prototypes, finished examples of the final product) and start taking orders, or as close as you can get to that point.

I don't think anything less shouldn't even be allowed.
You need to prove you can get it made, not just make a pretty picture.

Strong, strong disagree. IMO the expectations for interest checks have been getting too high to be just "interest checks", and at this point they're basically just an advertisement for an upcoming GB, without much room to incorporate feedback or even gauge interest. Asking for a proto, finalized designs, vendors, and having a GB ready to go tomorrow completely destroys the notion of an interest check. At that point you have way too much money and time invested to incorporate significant changes, and you're well past the stage of just trying to gauge interest. You're basically committed to running a GB at that point.

[Pylon]

I will add that you absolutely should have a fully-working proto by the start of GB (when you are collecting people's money), but it's not a necessity for IC.

[ladrigon]

Thank you for all the replies. Seems like the general consensus is to have it done far enough to have some representative renders or where a prototype can/has been made. Also having a decent idea of how you might want to have the final product turn out (eg. price, quantity,...) and a general overview of the manufacturing while still being open to changes and suggestions is appreciated.

Thanks for the input, I will keep it in mind and will hopefully create a design good enough to see some of you at the IC

[Leslieann]

Basically be ready to post the group buy, get final samples (not prototypes, finished examples of the final product) and start taking orders, or as close as you can get to that point.

Strong, strong disagree. IMO the expectations for interest checks have been getting too high to be just "interest checks", and at this point they're basically just an advertisement for an upcoming GB, without much room to incorporate feedback or even gauge interest. Asking for a proto, finalized designs, vendors, and having a GB ready to go tomorrow completely destroys the notion of an interest check. At that point you have way too much money and time invested to incorporate significant changes, and you're well past the stage of just trying to gauge interest. You're basically committed to running a GB at that point.

Like I said, as close as possible to that stage.
I'm not saying you can't make changes but your idea should be relatively flushed out and have vendors and such figured out. Is it an advertisement, frankly it pretty much is.

The job of an I.C. is not just to convince us that the idea is good, it's also to convince us to trust that person with our hard earned money. You have 3 posts, that means you have zero reputation here, we have not seen any skills from you, for all we know you typed that out on an 8 year old cell phone from a swamp in Nigeria. How can you get an accurate gauge of interest if we don't trust you? Go look at Ebay auctions by sellers with little to no feedback, they get screwed on price. Right now all I see is someone trying to use our community to fund their own project.

This sounds a lot like a business plan. YES! This really is a short term mini business and it needs to be treated as such. It's not a game, it's far from easy and you will be handling a LOT of other people's money and you need to show you can manage it. How do you do that by showing you can actually do it and your level of commitment.


"That's a lot of work only to fail", welcome to manufacturing.

[Pylon]

You can do things like find a vendor, get protos made, display competency, etc. over the course of an IC. It's not needed before you post an IC post, and you can (and should) revise the IC post with updates. By GB you should have those things figured out and posted in your IC, since by GB we need to be able to trust you with our money.

[ladrigon]

Like I said, as close as possible to that stage.
I'm not saying you can't make changes but your idea should be relatively flushed out and have vendors and such figured out. Is it an advertisement, frankly it pretty much is.

The job of an I.C. is not just to convince us that the idea is good, it's also to convince us to trust that person with our hard earned money. You have 3 posts, that means you have zero reputation here, we have not seen any skills from you, for all we know you typed that out on an 8 year old cell phone from a swamp in Nigeria. How can you get an accurate gauge of interest if we don't trust you? Go look at Ebay auctions by sellers with little to no feedback, they get screwed on price. Right now all I see is someone trying to use our community to fund their own project.

This sounds a lot like a business plan. YES! This really is a short term mini business and it needs to be treated as such. It's not a game, it's far from easy and you will be handling a LOT of other people's money and you need to show you can manage it. How do you do that by showing you can actually do it and your level of commitment.


"That's a lot of work only to fail", welcome to manufacturing.

I can completely understand your standpoint. As of now I don't have anything to show and no previous involvement in the community, as I was just lurking around, and I have to convince everybody that is interested that I am trustworthy enough that I will deliver what I promise. I realize that likely it will not be easy and the possibility of failure is high but I'll give it a shot when I get there I mean as you said I have 0 reputation here therefore nothing to lose.

[Leslieann]

You can do things like find a vendor, get protos made, display competency, etc. over the course of an IC. It's not needed before you post an IC post, and you can (and should) revise the IC post with updates. By GB you should have those things figured out and posted in your IC, since by GB we need to be able to trust you with our money.

You've been working on your I.C. for nearly a year, then you'll spend another year on a group buy.

You could have done your build in Making Stuff Together then moved to an I.C. to determine if people wanted it and get your logistics together, then progressed to a group buy. It's great you're documenting everything and it's well done but you weren't doing an interest check you were doing development, all you have done is clog the I.C. forum so no one can tell what's in development and what's an actual interest check. It's right in the name and topic.

I'm not trying to blame you for it, you're far from the only one doing it but you opened yourself up to it in this thread.

[Pylon]

There are types of feedback you get in an IC that you are unlikely to get in a "Making Stuff Together" thread by virtue of offering it for potential sale. For example I got multiple requests to support different bottom row layouts, which was not something I originally was planning to do and wasn't interested in personally for a product I was going to use myself, but something that I later incorporated into my PCB and plate design because I got requests for it. Your relationship between someone who reads an IC thread (who is interested in potentially buying what you're making) is pretty different from someone browsing "Making Stuff Together" (who is most likely either just browsing, or doing technical research, perhaps for their own project). It's fairly unlikely someone is going to come up to you in "Making Stuff Together" and make direct requests for product features (or criticisms of aspects of the design), while this is normal and expected in IC threads. Admittedly Boston is taking a long time to get into GB (far longer than I was hoping to), but I don't regret posting it into IC at the stage it was in. Plenty of boards sit in IC for long periods of time and go through extensive revisions while in IC, sometimes because of the feedback they collect during IC. The same is true of numerous keycap sets that are still in IC. There's also just a lot more people who browse the IC/GB subforums these days than who browse the discussion subforums, since most discussions have moved over to Discord and Reddit, and you're far more likely to reach an audience on the IC/GB subforums.

I do get that the IC subforum is fairly crowded, and updates to older projects adds to the volume of projects there and makes it harder to find newer projects, but that's also partly a function of the huge growth that the mechanical keyboards community has seen in the past few years and the sheer number of projects and GBs going on, to the point where veteran Twitch streamers who make IC/GB videos regularly miss ongoing GBs. Perhaps very mature ICs that are pretty much ready for GB and aren't looking for feedback can go into a new category, like 'Upcoming GB", rather than IC. There's also plenty of projects these days (especially keycap sets, but also boards like the NK87) that never go through IC and just go straight into GB, and if your project is that far along why not do that?