Author Topic: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?  (Read 2202 times)

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Offline TxrMiN

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Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« on: Sun, 13 March 2022, 01:17:00 »
Hi everyone. Last year I bought my first mechanical keyboard (coming from whatever random keyboard I had before) and I've been moderately happy with it. It's a Tada68 with Cherry MX Clear switches. I love the layout but not the switches. I find the clear switches too heavy especially when using pinkies - think left pinky for shift or tab, and right one for things like parentheses, (semi)colons, +-_ etc. Since I'm using the keyboard for programming I type those characters a lot.

I also sometimes put enough force to go through the tactile bump but not enough to actuate the key. You can see it in the distance/force graph for the Clears - the actuation point is a bit after the bump (the bottom of bump at ~1.9mm and actuation at 2.15mm according to input.club).

I ordered a hot-swappable PCB to try out a bunch of  switches. Naturally, I ordered browns - if they are to light I'll play with clears + brown spring. From just looking at the graphs it seems like I might be interested in checking out the blues. I would also like to play with shorter actuation distance so I'll check out Kailh Copper and Gold. Oh - and for now I don't care about the sound of the switch.

Do you have any recommendations on what I should try out: tactile or clicky, lighter than MX clear, actuation right after the tactile event, and possibly <2mm travel to actuation.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 2164
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 16 March 2022, 08:29:48 »
Hi everyone. Last year I bought my first mechanical keyboard (coming from whatever random keyboard I had before) and I've been moderately happy with it. It's a Tada68 with Cherry MX Clear switches. I love the layout but not the switches. I find the clear switches too heavy especially when using pinkies - think left pinky for shift or tab, and right one for things like parentheses, (semi)colons, +-_ etc. Since I'm using the keyboard for programming I type those characters a lot.

I also sometimes put enough force to go through the tactile bump but not enough to actuate the key. You can see it in the distance/force graph for the Clears - the actuation point is a bit after the bump (the bottom of bump at ~1.9mm and actuation at 2.15mm according to input.club).

I ordered a hot-swappable PCB to try out a bunch of  switches. Naturally, I ordered browns - if they are to light I'll play with clears + brown spring. From just looking at the graphs it seems like I might be interested in checking out the blues. I would also like to play with shorter actuation distance so I'll check out Kailh Copper and Gold. Oh - and for now I don't care about the sound of the switch.

Do you have any recommendations on what I should try out: tactile or clicky, lighter than MX clear, actuation right after the tactile event, and possibly <2mm travel to actuation.

First off, I see you're new here. Welcome to Geekhack.  :D

I don't think you're going to need to focus so much on actuation height with a lighter switch. You may even find that with something like an MX red or brown that you'll accidentally actuate the switch by resting your fingers on them ... in which case you may wish the actuation point was lower, or you had a little bit stiffer spring. There's no universally superior switch type, or specific switch within it. A fairly comprehensive switch tester (especially one with alternative mechanisms outside of MX) would be more advantageous in narrowing things down than purchasing loose switches until you find a set you like.

You're on the right track already otherwise. What you've described with that spring swap is ergo clears, which is a popular modification for MX switches. The MX tactile crowd typically gravitates to more exotic/custom clones, like those available from Zeal. Bobas seem to be in vogue at the moment. Since it is probably too late to cancel the order, I'll be interested to hear what you think of those MX browns.  ;)

I don't think MX offers anything worth looking at outside of getting a general feel for each switch type between linear, tactile and clicky. MX blue is a love or hate sort of thing, as with most MX switches. They were my favorites until I tried alternative mechanisms. These days, I would rather just have MX reds or maybe even clears ... and I'm a clicky guy. They sound and feel like you're typing on plastic grocery bags. Very ... crunchy.

Outemu and Gateron blues are much more consistent and less rattly than Cherry, but they're not fantastic clickies either. Kaihua's box switches are probably the best MX compatible clickies. If MX clear is already too heavy for you, you might want to start with box pink or even box white (these are even less tactile than MX blue, but it isn't unheard of for people to think that even the pinks are too stiff). I think Matias' simplified Alps clones (currently manufactured by Gaote/Outemu) are some of the best switches available new today in any category, but they share no cap, plate or board compatibility with the parts associated with the typical compulsion to customize everything like a LEGO set in this hobby. I think it would not be controversial to say that the best of the best clicky mechanisms have not been mass produced in decades, so that's a whole different rabbit hole.

For tactiles, the biggest crowd outside of MX is probably Topre, which is basically the Rolls-Royce of rubber domes. Capacitive sensing on a PCB instead of a membrane, conical springs, sliders, etc. Very smooth, very pleasant sound. In your case, you might even want to look at the cheaper NIZ switches (Topre clones) in the 35 or 45g weightings. It can just be tough to ever try any of these without dropping a lot of dough on a board, or finding a meet with some at it.

That's a start, and if you end up going down the path of swapping springs and housings to make MX/clone frankenswitches and/or narrowing in on very specific MX clones, someone that bothers with that stuff may be along with suggestions.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1379
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 17 March 2022, 10:01:17 »
Hi everyone. Last year I bought my first mechanical keyboard (coming from whatever random keyboard I had before) and I've been moderately happy with it. It's a Tada68 with Cherry MX Clear switches.

I ordered a hot-swappable PCB to try out a bunch of  switches. Naturally, I ordered browns - if they are to light I'll play with clears + brown spring. From just looking at the graphs it seems like I might be interested in checking out the blues. I would also like to play with shorter actuation distance so I'll check out Kailh Copper and Gold. Oh - and for now I don't care about the sound of the switch.

Do you have any recommendations on what I should try out: tactile or clicky, lighter than MX clear, actuation right after the tactile event, and possibly <2mm travel to actuation.

I've been down this road, so I can help you out. I'm someone who bothers with this stuff.

Yeah, MX Clears can be too heavy, not forgiving of low-actuation on your part.

Browns can be good, but might require some tuning.

So for the intermediate switch - the Ergo Clear - there are a lot of options, and they matter.

It is good to modify MX Clears into Ergo Clears, because it's easy and produces results. The lighter the spring, the more lube you are going to want to use [unless you like crunch, some do.]

A good 'knee of the curve' weight for Ergo Clears is probably 67 G. You may not even need to lube at that weight - the spring may be enough for this 'bigger Brown.' I personally think that 65 G 14mm TX is a good weight. A modest amount of careful lube can be used with this weight. The tactility is not compromised.

Another successful spring is 62 G TX. With lube, this makes for a poppy Ergo Clear, a short snappy impulse kind of like MX Blue. You can also use 'progressive' springs to very slightly mimic the gradually-increasing force curve of the regular MX Clear spring. Getting a lighter MX Clear, in a way. I find 68 G Progressive Spirit to be a good choice, moderate lube. Or you can go 63.5 G, but that's very borderline, feels like an MX Red at the top. Wants ample lube.

Anyway, it's worth experimenting with Ergo Clears, and is not difficult. These stems and housings are fairly forgiving of mediocre lubing. You can also try using films. They don't have as much effect on Cherry housings as in others [e.g. JWK], but may make the sound profile slightly more consistent, which will help on boards with mediocre sound-profiles, such as factory boards and TADA68.

There are also a number of switches that resemble the intensity of Ergo Clears: Zealio V1 Redux, SP Star Purple / Magic Girl, Durock Medium Tactile and variants, Naevies [very close], Gateron CAP Brown, some of the TTC Browns are more like Ergo Clears.

Those above switches are all in-between the intensity of Browns and the heavier tactiles like Holy Panda and Zealio V2. For Browns, there's a whole other range of choices. You may wish to try Durock Light Tactile / Pewter / Cotton Candy, Greetech Brown, and so on.

One thing I would consider in your place is Kailh Pro Purple. It is an older design and very scratchy [lube-starved]. However, it was kind of an attempt at a factory Ergo-Clear. It's more intense than Brown by the spring-weight alone, and the bump is placed higher. So if that's something that matters to you, they may be worth lubing and trying. I find that 63.5 G Spirit springs are good with these.

Unlike some others, I agree with you that bump placement even on light tactiles makes a difference - Kailh Speed Copper is a different switch than MX Brown or MX Clear, and worth trying. I have a keyboard made up of Pro Purples and Speed Coppers, they find their niche on a keyboard. [Pro Purples and Speed Coppers will give you faster actuation, as will Durock Medium Tactile, and perhaps Zealio V1 [especially V2] and CAP Brown.]

Also try Kailh BOX Brown, as that's a medium-tactile that actuates in a very definite manner. Everglide Jade also actuates higher than MX Brown, and could function as a kind of Ergo-Clear with 62 G Spirit springs. Just be sure to film, and lube generously.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1379
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 17 March 2022, 10:30:00 »
The other thing for you to seriously consider here are clicky switches.

They can actuate higher than some tactiles, it can be a fast typing experience. They come in varying weights. Cherry MX Blue isn't very good, but OUTEMU Blues are fun and cheap. There's a particular brand that came in the old Teamwolf Zhuque keyboards, I think it was called "GAOTE Blue," and they are very fast-typing and actuate high-up. Easier and crisper to type on than Browns.

Some of those Blues are pretty low-tactility and light [even if they are crisp and snappy]. So if you want to go next-level, get BOX clickies like White, Pink or Jade.  BOX White is pretty easy to type on, maybe too easy, so Pink or Noble Yellow might be a good compromise. Jade isn't that fast or responsive. You seem to be looking for speed, so I don't recommend BOX Jade, even though it is awesome.

Kailh Speed Copper is interesting, because it feels half-way to a clicky-switch. Because it's crisp, and the actuation is at the top. While still being light and non-resistant like a Brown. If you want something like that, on steroids, try the Huano Banana, which is like an extra crispy, juiced-up Ergo Clear. Cheap, too.

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 17 March 2022, 10:45:57 »
I also sometimes put enough force to go through the tactile bump but not enough to actuate the key. You can see it in the distance/force graph for the Clears - the actuation point is a bit after the bump (the bottom of bump at ~1.9mm and actuation at 2.15mm according to input.club).

Hysteresis.
You do NOT want anything with a click jacket (blues, greens) if this bothers you as it's even more pronounced on them, particularly on lift. Many switches have this, but in most cases it;s small enough that you can't hang on it like you do or like you certainly will with blues and greens.

Whatever you do, do not lube the legs or "knees" on any of these switches.
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Offline 1391401

  • Posts: 435
  • MX CLEAR
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 17 March 2022, 15:13:04 »
I'm a fan of clears (and also Greys 😈).  As for what works best for you no one can really tell you - all comes down to your preference.  I think finding what you want out of a switch is sometimes the hardest part.

Anyway - I have also tried switches from ZealPC (Zealios Zilent V2), Durock, C³EQUALZ and they all offer a pretty good experience.  Zilents are by far my favorite switch (though their tactility comes on a bit earlier than other switches).  The board I recently built is a Tex Shinobi with Durock tactile POM switches (stem is of unknown material) with a 63.5g spring and they may become my new favorite.  The Key Company sells the C³EQUALZ of various kinds (I'm sure you can find them elsewhere).  Finally Drop.com is going to be selling their own tactile switch (Holy Panda or whatever, I know the name is very controversial here) that I am looking forward to testing.
People I've given money to from this webform who never respond to me and have not shipped me anything: ctrlalt.io 1 2, Team Readline Reputable alternatives to GH group buys: http://pimpmykeyboard.com, https://www.massdrop.com,

Offline Leslieann

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Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 17 March 2022, 17:06:42 »
Zilents are by far my favorite switch (though their tactility comes on a bit earlier than other switches).

I was looking for something with a quiet thock and got some Zealios and Zilents to sample, fully expecting to not like the Zilents as I really wanted some sound and ended up falling in love with them.

They obviously aren't for everyone, some people HAAATE them, but that's kind of a good thing as one person's dislike is another's like. If we all wanted just a single generic switch we'd all be using browns.*


*Not saying browns are bad, just sort of jack or all trades, master of none.
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Offline TxrMiN

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 2
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 18 March 2022, 19:12:32 »
Thank you so much for your suggestions! I've received the browns yesterday and I've been using them the whole day today. This is definitely a step in the right direction for me - the lower force fits my light typing much better :) I'll report again after a week.

I'm not super convinced if switch tester is really helpful - I feel like I'd have to use the full keyboard for a couple days to go through the learning curve and draw some conclusions. I will definitely like to play a little bit with other switches now that I know what the ballpark of operating force fits me. I think my next step will be to try out some clicky switches to see if their tactility suits me and I'll continue from there.

Also I'm trying hard not to make it my new hobby - "good enough" is my goal without going into diminishing returns territory. I have other hobbies where I pour my money in  :)

Offline Leslieann

  • * Elevated Elder
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Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 18 March 2022, 19:42:47 »
Also I'm trying hard not to make it my new hobby - "good enough" is my goal without going into diminishing returns territory. I have other hobbies where I pour my money in  :)
You're in denial.
If you're in this deep, you're already too late.

Welcome to the club, leave your wallet at the checkout counter.
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Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1379
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 21 March 2022, 19:58:46 »
Thank you so much for your suggestions! I've received the browns yesterday and I've been using them the whole day today. This is definitely a step in the right direction for me - the lower force fits my light typing much better :) I'll report again after a week.



If you like the Browns, then there are a few similar switches with slightly different characteristics.

You might want to try the Cotton Candy switches [they are Durock Light Tactiles with better materials], you can get them pre-lubed and pre-filmed. Worth ordering samples if you're in the US.

Go for Greetech Browns if you want a Brown that's slightly 'crunchier' and more tactile. They're cheap and ready-to-go.

For something that's even closer to linear, there's SP Star Meteor Orange / Duck.

Everglide Jade Green is really worth trying if you want something light, but with the tactile barrier higher-up than Cherry.

The near-Brown switches like Zealio V1 are old favourite - get them when on sale, you'll want to lube the stems at least.



But anyway, Browns are very much a 'staple' of MX keyboard switches, and will give you a great basis for comparison.

Offline ThoughtArtist

  • Posts: 310
  • Location: A climate-controlled testing facility
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 22 March 2022, 00:16:04 »
I recommend skip all the clicky and tactile interference B.S. in your switches and go light linear like MX Red or my new favorite, Gateron Clear

Save your hands from R.S.I.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1379
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 22 March 2022, 09:43:28 »
Good tactiles prevent RSI.

MX Brown was designed for ergonomic anti-RSI keyboards.

Basically, ergonomics studies back in the 1970s or early 80s showed that tactility was better than linear, since it provides a feedback to the user, and easier to avoid bottom-out. So a number of corporations and governments went for tactile keyboards.

I'm not saying that linear isn't the best choice for a lot of people, because it is. But tactile largely replaced linear, most likely for a reason.

MX "heavy tactiles" could be dangerous for RSI, it's a big bump you have to overcome and you slam right down on the bottom. I think Holy Pandas and Zealio V2 are highly questionable from an RSI standpoint. But MX Clear and Brown were designed to provide harmless feedback, there's a number of MX light and medium tactiles that are perfectly acceptable for typing.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 2164
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 28 March 2022, 10:43:18 »
I'm not super convinced if switch tester is really helpful - I feel like I'd have to use the full keyboard for a couple days to go through the learning curve and draw some conclusions. I will definitely like to play a little bit with other switches now that I know what the ballpark of operating force fits me. I think my next step will be to try out some clicky switches to see if their tactility suits me and I'll continue from there.

If you must try the switches in a hot swap board, then you can pop any switch you think you may like from the tester into the board and take them for a spin. Real world use in a board is ideal, but you can't try every single switch you may like in a board by just buying a board's worth of switches ... unless you want to spend a lot of money on a lot of switches you'll never use again. Without already having tried a vast amount of different switch types (and even mechanisms) a switch tester helps you narrow down your tastes before getting as specific as which specific switch you should be putting in a board.

I recommend skip all the clicky and tactile interference B.S. in your switches and go light linear like MX Red or my new favorite, Gateron Clear

Save your hands from R.S.I.

You must drink decaf coffee. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To each their own. I would sure hate to use a single switch type forever, especially something as bland as linears.

Offline granola bar enthusiast

  • Posts: 316
  • Location: USA
Re: Don't like MX clears - what to try next?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 28 March 2022, 13:01:17 »
ergo clears would be a great option and I would recommend looking around at what spring weight is for you, my personal favorite MX-style tactile switch is the SP-Star Magic girl (whatever colorway you prefer dark or classic but I heard classic has leaf chatter), this is just my recommendation but as some info, the SP-Star Magic girl has a medium bump strength and has its actuation a tiny bit after the P shaped bump ends and has a 67g spring. It's manufactured by SP-Star so it is fairly high quality and out of the 75 that I ordered only around 3 had a very quiet ticking when I actuated without bottoming out. The wobble is relatively controlled and while a film can help I was way too lazy to film mine and it's not really needed. The full nylon housing is said to produce a relatively "deep" sound but in the current board I have them on it is relatively high pitched although that might be thanks to the silicone I have under the PCB.