PCB vs Plate

[Astounding]

Which mounting method is superior?


DISCUSS/FIGHT

[SecrtAgentMan]

Well I've never tried PCB, but with plate I like the added rigidity and the extra weight on my board just feels nice when picking up.

Maybe one day I'll get a poker and try it out

The one thing that I don't like with plate mount is dat ping.

[daerid]

I personally like plate better, as I tend to bottom out a lot and enjoy the tactile feedback of the plate. I find it tends to make the keys feel a bit sturdier.

Plus the weight. Helps keep that mofo put.

[elbowglue]

PCB mounted.  Well mounted PCB keyboards (ricercar spos) are awesome.  Poorly mounted PCB keyboards (Mx8100) stink, you need to reinforce these.

[Astounding]

I personally like plate better, as I tend to bottom out a lot and enjoy the tactile feedback of the plate. I find it tends to make the keys feel a bit sturdier.

Plus the weight. Helps keep that mofo put.

The heavier weight pretty much sells me on plate, it's got to feel sturdier than PCB as well I'd think.

[keyboardlover]

I prefer plate-mounted for Topre and PCB-mounted for cherries. My Filco with ergo clears is the exception though.

[redpill]

I'm leaning toward PCB mounted for MX Browns, I like the increased travel, gives me more room to not bottom out after the tactile bump.  I like to say typing on my KBC Poker with browns feels like sticking my fingers into a bowl of rice krispies.

[IvanIvanovich]

Pcb all the way. If you disagree, I'm not listening.

[The Solutor]

Good PCB mounted keyboards are way better, usually switches are more precisely placed and more precisely leveled, the lack of the additional resonance chamber makes them less prone to resonance problems, are way easier to mod (and modifiability is one of the not questionable advantage of cherry boards over other technologies), and are also lighter and cheaper.

I like the increased travel

What increased travel ?

[RiGS]

He must be thinking that PCB and plate mounted keyboards use the same switches, and the lack of plate provides more travel, but this is not the case.

[redpill]

whether it is or it's just perception, that's how it winds up feeling on my PCB-mounted Poker.

[The Solutor]

Switches are completely identical other than the two additional nubs, obviously the PCB can have a bit more flex than a steel plate id not supported by the keyboards back cover, but we are speaking about fractions of millimeters

[Astounding]

Switches are completely identical other than the two additional nubs, obviously the PCB can have a bit more flex than a steel plate id not supported by the keyboards back cover, but we are speaking about fractions of millimeters

Are you saying they feel the same to type on?

[RiGS]

He said they had the same key travel.

[ironman31]

Are you saying they feel the same to type on?

Definitely not true.

[The Solutor]

Could be Hamblets theory of resonance chambers under the MX switch.  That was one weird ass theory.

 

Rip, wake up.

I'm not speaking about filcos here, nor about ring, I'm speaking about the sound emitted by good plate mounted (or working filcos) keyboards v.s. good pcb mounted ones

[redpill]

Also I've noticed the Poker feels like it needs slightly more force to actuate than the browns on my MJ2; it does have sanded keys, I would if I could have removed enough material from the keycap that the lessened weight could make the spring feel different?

[The Solutor]

Are you saying they feel the same to type on?

 
I'm saying what I said: that there isn't an additional travel.

Typing feeling is a different matter

[Astounding]

He said they had the same key travel.

So which feels more solid?  Plate I would assume... then the question is steel or aluminum.

[The Solutor]

Also I've noticed the Poker feels like it needs slightly more force to actuate than the browns on my MJ2; it does have sanded keys, I would if I could have removed enough material from the keycap that the lessened weight could make the spring feel different?

 

I guess that the tolerances from different batches are more pronounced than the ones due to the keycap's weights, but obviously even the keycaps can make the difference.

You should switch-o-meter your poker to quickly see what happens

[IvanIvanovich]

I have a same perception on the Poker I have with reds. It does seem there is more key travel and key tension than on my Leopold as I almost never bottom out unless gaming. I bottom out on my Leopold all the time.

[elbowglue]

Depends on what you mean by more solid.  Switches that are plate mounted will not "slide away" from you when you press down on it.  Thus the force diagram should be completely accurate.  Bad PCB mounted keyboards will "flex down" when you press on them, (especially in the middle of the keyboard of the MX8100).  So plate mounted = more solid.

However, there is a world of difference in bottoming out characteristics.  It feels like you are hitting a steel plate when you bottom out with filcos or other plate mounted keyboards.  This is not pleasant feeling or sounding at all.  Bottoming out against a PCB feels really nice on the other hand.

I typically bottom out a lot especially if I am typing fast, so I really feel there is a significant difference in PCB mounted vs Plate mounted, especially when it comes to cherry brown switches.

[The Solutor]

I don't remember mentioning ping.  Hamblet was talking about the bottoming out sound.

And of course they feel slightly different.  Look how they are mounted.

 
I'm speaking about it too, as any other sound, the diffusion path is completely different and influenced by a zillion of factors, same of them can be scientifically evaluated, same of them can be just guessed, even in laboratories full of instrumentation.

Stradivari violins are studied since 1700 and their secrets are still not fully understood, hardly me and you can tell a definitive word about the keyboard's sound.

[keyboardlover]

May SEEM that way but physically impossible to be technically true.  McGurk Effect from the duller sound and easier to feel tactile point maybe.

Don't think so. The PCB flexes when you type on a PCB mounted board.

[keyboardlover]

I see your ego hasn't changed.

Anyway, I don't see any reason why the PCB wouldn't start flexing before bottoming out. I'm sure it flexes even slightly as soon as you start pressing the key down. I have tried it before and seen it happen.

I'll post a vid if I get a free minute.

[Astounding]

How does it feel to bottom out on aluminum?

[daerid]

It would only flex after bottoming out.  So the travel is really unchanged before the bottoming out point.  And anyway you'd have to pound $20 in RipOmeter Nickels to get a few extra microns.

I was going to do a wiki on how the sliders in a Cherry MX work but got bored when I realized my Number One Key Expert status had little chance of competition.  I'm a little worried about those KBC-forum guys.

 
Okay, that's just lazy and complacent. Did you really create all those wikis just to claim that title? I find that hard to believe. If so, that's some straight up rock star syndrome right there. You don't wanna make a wiki, that's fine. You don't owe anybody anything, but that statement just screams "arrogant *******". And I personally find you funny and informative. Don't ruin it

[Chobopants]

My guess is he most likely actually DID add it to the wiki but said that to stir some stuff up.

[keyb_gr]

You guys should study the support braces in the bottom case of a Cherry board (MX3000, whatever). The PCB sits right on top of these, and there must not be any components in the way. The case designer needs to be familiar with the PCB, and further PCB redesigns need to take case design into account. If you do it right, it is absolutely possible to do a totally solid PCB mounting. The PCB clamping setup is not exactly a case of bad industry design either.

Geez, I've been watching too much EEVBlog lately.

[redpill]

I have a same perception on the Poker I have with reds. It does seem there is more key travel and key tension than on my Leopold as I almost never bottom out unless gaming. I bottom out on my Leopold all the time.

Yes exactly.  And doing side-by-side key presses, I don't think it's just a matter of them sounding different or something, they definitely feel different.

Just speculating but could it be a dynamic resulting from the plate mounted switches being affixed on their sides and a PCB mount that is more underneath, so the keypress force is vectored in different directions?  Not sure how to describe that more effectively.

[The Solutor]

You guys should study the support braces in the bottom case of a Cherry board (MX3000, whatever). The PCB sits right on top of these, and there must not be any components in the way. The case designer needs to be familiar with the PCB, and further PCB redesigns need to take case design into account. If you do it right, it is absolutely possible to do a totally solid PCB mounting. The PCB clamping setup is not exactly a case of bad industry design either.

 
Indeed Cherry boards are an example of industrial projects, while most of the other cherry boards are more artisanal products, and the integration of the case's design with its functionality is a good example of the different approach.

[redpill]

It didn't occur to you that a keyboard-sized PCB might have more flex than your tiny little frankenpad?

[weipim]

It would only flex after bottoming out.  So the travel is really unchanged before the bottoming out point.  And anyway you'd have to pound $20 in RipOmeter Nickels to get a few extra microns.

I was going to do a wiki on how the sliders in a Cherry MX work but got bored when I realized my Number One Key Expert status had little chance of competition.  I'm a little worried about those KBC-forum guys.

 
just send the G-man to China,
illigal child keyboard porns

[redpill]

Well the feel of the browns on my Poker is stiffer than the browns on my plate mounted Filco.  It's not McGurk because I wouldn't expect them to be, I'd expect them to be the same because they are both browns.  So why is that?  If it was a matter of expectation there should be a bias in them feeling similar, not different.

[weipim]

Who's the #1 Keyboard Expert on KBC-China forums?

Actually it's the Koreans that worry me the most.  Lots of modding technology CNC expertise but simply horrible sense of color coordination.

lmao i'd be laughing so hard if the feds busted that chinese ass after I revealed his name.

I have no clue who is the no.1 shizzle in korea, but in China there is a lot of experts, not only in kbc

[csm725]

Who's the #1 Keyboard Expert on KBC-China forums?

Actually it's the Koreans that worry me the most.  Lots of modding technology CNC expertise but simply horrible sense of color coordination.

They cut it, we paint it pal.

[redpill]

Who's the #1 Keyboard Expert on KBC-China forums?

Actually it's the Koreans that worry me the most.  Lots of modding technology CNC expertise but simply horrible sense of color coordination.

And they actually use their expertise to BUILD crazy kick-ass keyboards, not just wikis.  That should be your next project.  You know you can do it.

[Izza]

Depends on the size of the keyboard, and how well the PCB is mounted.

The 8113 (along with other Cherry boards), IMO, is a great example of poor mounting, and PCB flex as a result. It makes the button presses mushy.

On the other hand the Poker, being small, and with proper (if dainty) mounting of the PCB... feels just fine to me.

Plate is nice, but I prefer PCB for easier access.

[redpill]

If the travel is the same, why would the mounting make it feel longer or stiffer?  (inuendo softball but please try to resist)

[Izza]

Yeah, that 8113 was built so badly I just raped the doubleshot keys and threw that sorry ass carcass in the dumpsters.  Once again, the FEEL is different.  I'm saying the switch travel is 4.0mm.  Always.  There's even a Key Travel Wiki in my sig.

At least I learned how much different worn Cherry Clears feel from new ones.

Yeah, the switch travel would not change... I'm not sure why people would think otherwise.

The overall travel (finger movement til' bottoming out) sure.

Have not tried brand-spanking-new clears. The ones I have tried felt like gritty browns, even after cleaning, so perhaps they were worn?

[Izza]

If the travel is the same, why would the mounting make it feel longer or stiffer?  (inuendo softball but please try to resist)

 
We're referring to the switch's travel itself. That cannot change unless it were to physically change in dimension, design, etc.

The effect you're feeling is due to bowing of the board. As you're pressing down on the key, the spring is compressing, causing an equal (and opposite) force on the other end of the switch - as you probably have guessed, would then apply force to the board, and "bend" it.

Edit: Ripster probably has an image detailing this better than I can.

[Izza]

Well, I don't think it would bend the board into a taco or anything, but we've already observed the effect by the change in feel. It doesn't take much.

[Izza]

Ah, I'm just referring to PCB-mounted.

[daerid]

I think ripster's right on this one. Since some of the force is absorbed and transferred by lateral motion, the actual rebound force on the pcb mounted switch is less than on a plate mount, making it feel a little "soggy".

[Izza]

So we've been in agreement? Haha.

[Astounding]

Yeah, that 8113 was built so badly I just raped the doubleshot keys and threw that sorry ass carcass in the dumpsters.  Once again, the FEEL is different.  I'm saying the switch travel is 4.0mm.  Always.  There's even a Key Travel Wiki in my sig.

At least I learned how much different worn Cherry Clears feel from new ones.

 
You threw away cherry switches?

[The Solutor]

Yeah, that 8113 was built so badly I just raped the doubleshot keys and threw that sorry ass carcass in the dumpsters.  Once again, the FEEL is different.  I'm saying the switch travel is 4.0mm.  Always.  There's even a Key Travel Wiki in my sig.

 
+1

At least I learned how much different worn Cherry Clears feel from new ones.

Funny. I refused, just yesterday, to buy an used cherry clear board just because I was concerned about the tactility.

I guess that an ergo clear board made with well used clear stem would be not too different from a brand new brown one.

[Lester]

My ducky 1087 is plate.
I love my ducky 1087.

Plate wins!

[calavera]

This comes down to personal preference. Some people like PCB mount for lighter switches like red or modded blacks. Some like plate mount everything, like me.
You're comparing apples to oranges here, there is no winner. Whatever floats your boat is the best, screw what others think.

[keyb_gr]

For me, PCB-mounted wins. G80-3000s with old-style case in particular are some of the most service-friendly boards you'll find. Plate-mounted switches are a pain in the rear when it comes to servicing, modding and hacking.

Plate-mounted has the definite advantage of giving the board more rigidity, no doubt about that. A G80 is best left flat on the desk, extending the feet will give a pretty hollow sound. A modest G81 actually feels a lot more solid because it has a metal backplate... they should really come up with a better key mechanism to go with these, then they'd have a winner.