Bottoming out - comparison to the piano

[Architect]

Consensus thought seems to be that a keyboardist shouldn't bottom out. In fact the non linear Cherry keys have a tactile bump around midway to the the bottom point to alert the keyboardist that the key has been registered, which theoretically makes it possible to release once you feel (and/or hear) the registering point. However, consider playing the piano. The piano action is far more complicated, subtle and important (to a pianist at least) than a computer keyboard 'action' (key switches)

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 38800[/ATTACH]

There are many details of the piano keyboard which aren't relevant to us here, such as the inertial weight, static weight (known collectively as the strike weight curve and generally the action 'metrology'), but what is relevant to this discussion is the let off point, which is the point when the hammer releases from the key and the pianist therefore has no more control over it as it is in free fall. This corresponds exactly to the activating point on a keyboard switch. Now on the piano the let off point is as close to key bottoming as possible, the reason is it gives the pianist the most control over the hammer as it is under the control of the key for most of it's trajectory. Fast trills, quiet pianissimos and such would not be possible without this, and pianists pay technicians thousands of dollars to regularly make this adjustment to an action. In a piano the key bottoming out is cushioned by a soft felt pad (with shims to achieve perfect balance across the keyboard but that isn't important here). In the computer keyboard a rubber o-ring modification can perform the same task.

Now in a computer keyboard the activating point can be anywhere, it isn't necessary to have it near the bottom of the stroke, but I wonder if bottoming out is a bad thing when all pianists do it - whose control of the keyboard and importance of it is far greater than for any computer user.

Personally, perhaps because I play the piano, I bottom out, and when I touch down I usually release pretty quickly. Sometimes though I pound away. Just like when playing the piano. In fact I didn't even know Cherry Browns had a midway activation point until recently, and I've been typing on them for decades!

Thoughts welcome ...

[hazeluff]

Bottoming out a computer keyboard just makes a ton of noise and could possibly slow down your speed of typing. Not that important imo. I like slam my fingers into the keys with the force of 1000 suns. Nobody can stop me.

[Gawkbasher]

Bottoming out a computer keyboard just makes a ton of noise and could possibly slow down your speed of typing. Not that important imo. I like slam my fingers into the keys with the force of 1000 suns. Nobody can stop me.

I'm sorry but I can't hear you over the "thock thock thock" of my Realforce.  Man I love this keyboard.

[Playtrumpet]

I gave up trying not to bottom out on my browns ages ago. I also play piano and there really is nothing like feeling an old, up-kept grand whose keys are like butter and yet their action is quick and controllable.

There is something about the hammer hitting the string and feeling the weight of the key shift that I wish could be emulated (or emulated better rather) in computer keyboards.

[dish]

Interesting thread.  I am kind of curious where keyboard tech will possibly go.

I gave up trying not to bottom out on my browns ages ago. I also play piano and there really is nothing like feeling an old, up-kept grand whose keys are like butter and yet their action is quick and controllable.

Just stop pressing the key after it feels like there is no resistance.  That's the easiest way to avoid bottoming out on browns without having to spend ages conditioning yourself or putting in a conscious effort to type lighter.

[pitashen]

mech board keys trigger before bottoming out, so if you care about typing speed, not bottoming out would maximize your speed. One reason why a lot of people like tactile feedback from their keyboard. The feedback could help prevent bottom out keys and improve typing speed.

Altho interesting, the two really are not comparable. Not only do u bottom out on piano, how hard you bottom out matters a great deal as well. Comp keyboards are just about triggering the electronic circuitry.

On the side note, I am lately typing on cherry blacks. Despite not having any tactile feedback, the stiffness of the spring actually prevents me from bottoming out and I would try to minimize the force I hit the keys so I can type on it for a longer period of time.

[Playtrumpet]

Pianofinders.com on key force

A reading of 50 grams is about standard. Depending on the piano, however, it may be considerably more or less, anywhere from 30 to over 70 grams. Note that the key may not go all the way down. That's O.K. There are additional factors that come into play when the key is about halfway down, and we are not really concerned with them here.

Actions measuring an average of below 45 grams per note would likely be considered "light." Actions that "weigh off" at 55 grams or above are generally considered either "stiff" or "heavy."

I find that to be more accurate for weighted keys which you'll find in good Grand pianos. Uprights tend to be less consistent in their force measurements and almost always require more force.

But anyway, talking about bottoming out.. I'm coming to really like the scissor switches on my laptop because of the short travel distance. The reason I bottom out all switches is not because I've given up trying to avoid it; I bottom out because it's just more natural and comfortable to me. That's why I think I'd prefer a Cherry switch with the travel distance of a scissor switch (can this be achieved with O-rings/landing pads?).

[soymilk]

the difference is in a piano there is an element of control required so you can play it differently. keyboards are digital, either you triggered the key or you didn't. can't fortissimo a keyboard. well i guess you can but it wouldn't make any difference to what appeared on your computer.

[F u r u y á]

Pianofinders.com on key force


I find that to be more accurate for weighted keys which you'll find in good Grand pianos. Uprights tend to be less consistent in their force measurements and almost always require more force.

But anyway, talking about bottoming out.. I'm coming to really like the scissor switches on my laptop because of the short travel distance. The reason I bottom out all switches is not because I've given up trying to avoid it; I bottom out because it's just more natural and comfortable to me. That's why I think I'd prefer a Cherry switch with the travel distance of a scissor switch (can this be achieved with O-rings/landing pads?).

For me bottoming out is more comfortable too. Ocasionally, I don't bottom out, but I do most of times. And I like the piano comparison (despite not being a piano player). Some messages I've posted before:

Also, trying to not bottom out is sometimes very unnatural to the hands/wrist.

If I keep consciously trying to not bottomming out every key, I get some discomfort in my wrist after some time.

If I let my hands and fingers very loose, and use more my arms/shoulders to control fingers position and using the hands own weight to activate the keys (instead of solely using finger flexors), I don't get any discomfort and I type faster. I do end up bottoming out a bit but I don't care, because this way is much more comfortable and I can even feel the tactile bump better. Despite not being a piano player (I do play guitar though), typing this way makes me feel like I'm playing a piano

Regarding the use of modifiers (and many other keys), one thing that helps a lot relieving the stress is to use the keyboard somewhat like a piano: fingers very relaxed and wrist not supported. Instead of rotating the wrist, just move the arms slightly.

[sordna]

Real piano keys: looong smooth travel, heavy, linear, and moderate bottom-out dampening. I'd say cherry blacks, with regular (not thick) 50A - 40A o-rings would be the closest bet!

[Architect]

In Japan I found keyweighting Relative.

The Nara Hotel, Nara Japan

Now that's fascinating! One, I used to work in 2D General Relativity. Two, I used to work near Nara Japan, why didn't I ever go to that hotel? Three, Einstein barely played the violin, I can't believe he tried the piano at all!

Real piano keys: looong smooth travel, heavy, linear, and moderate bottom-out dampening. I'd say cherry blacks, with regular (not thick) 50A - 40A o-rings would be the closest bet!

It's a matter of taste. Horowitz was famous not just for his playing but for being the only pianist who would crate his piano around with him. They'd crane it out of his NYC apartment every time he had a concert. After he died the piano is making the rounds and people can play it (what do you do with a famous old piano like that?) I've heard from those who have that it has the most amazing light touch (what we call the action responsiveness, namely weight). I haven't tried it but I'd guess it's lighter than Cherry Reds with 40D's.

Now I have a seven year old 6'4" American grand (Walter). Renner action, Kluge keys, full old growth Sitka spruce sound board and all old growth Maple body. It's a beautiful thing, his voice is mellow and sweet, but the action is heavy as ****. Stock from the factory it's uneven top to bottom, and if I recall from my tech it averages about 60g. Hard to trill and play fast passages. I'm seriously considering having him do the 'Stanwood' treatment on it, which takes about three months of work, to the tune of about $4,000.

Of course this is all grand talk, the upright is a different kettle of fish. The action isn't predicated by gravity (vertical) and therefore isn't nearly as good, to the pianist, as the grand.

[sordna]

It's a matter of taste. Horowitz was famous not just for his playing but for being the only pianist who would crate his piano around with him. They'd crane it out of his NYC apartment every time he had a concert. After he died the piano is making the rounds and people can play it (what do you do with a famous old piano like that?)

Sounds exactly like my Kinesis Contoured #110 which is on tour! Except I didn't wait to die first to share it with the world :-)