Where do I find a 30g-45g mushy rubberdome keyboard?

[davkol]

You are basically trolling topre users by calling them defective which is completely false, no where is topre advertising ps2 on products like the 87U. Who cares if the controller doesn't support an adapter? You've done this are several posts on geek hack too since you joined; You have talked similar lies about the Topre and HHKB. Because of this i think it is completely valid we call you out on your bull$h!t in your topic.

If compatibility is your reason for PS/2, USB has been on computers for 15 years. Whatever computer you are using that doesn't have usb ports is not worthy of a modern mechanical keyboard.
If NKRO is your reason for PS/2 then you are a sucker. Needing NKRO is all in your head; its a placebo . 6KRO is all you need; it's fact.

While I strongly agree with most parts of your post, it's not a fact that NKRO is useless. Actually, there are two counterexamples to your claim:

• Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.
• I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.

[fohat.digs]

I suppose that I use fairly conventional gear, but I have had VERY LITTLE problem with a wide variety of adapters, now or in years past. I have gone back and forth with all manner of keyboards and quite a few computers.

Right now, I have a monstrous Model F-122 with a Teensy plugged in to an Acer laptop (and, of course, the Model F probably weighs twice what the laptop weighs).

In fact, I have hardly had any problems in years, if my memory serves me, except with laptops running on battery power and the rare oddball combination in Ubuntu.

But, I have never owned a Topre, so maybe there are compatibility issues, and this has not become a complete troller tanz.

[Glod]

You are basically trolling topre users by calling them defective which is completely false, no where is topre advertising ps2 on products like the 87U. Who cares if the controller doesn't support an adapter? You've done this are several posts on geek hack too since you joined; You have talked similar lies about the Topre and HHKB. Because of this i think it is completely valid we call you out on your bull$h!t in your topic.

If compatibility is your reason for PS/2, USB has been on computers for 15 years. Whatever computer you are using that doesn't have usb ports is not worthy of a modern mechanical keyboard.
If NKRO is your reason for PS/2 then you are a sucker. Needing NKRO is all in your head; its a placebo . 6KRO is all you need; it's fact.

While I strongly agree with most parts of your post, it's not a fact that NKRO is useless. Actually, there are two counterexamples to your claim:

• Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.
• I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.

that's a fair argument. i should have added the words "most commonly" or something like that. You get my point though, its rare that anyone would need NKRO and if they do i would rather hear reasons like you just did instead of just hearing "i need to have it"

[TotalChaos]

• Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.

Sometimes when I type fast I have 3 fingers down on keys... they are in the process of releasing the key but have not actually gone up the whole 2mm to trigger the KEYUP event, when I then press down 4 more keys (usually on my other hand).  This action requires 7kro and fails on  $300.00 Topre keyboards.

• I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.

I do the same thing.  I have tons of oldskool games that, for whatever reason, were programmed to use the keyboard.  Some of them use joysticks for players 1 and 2 and players 3 and 4 must use keyboard. 

I even have a few games that we played with 3 ppl on the keyboard at once.  6kro on a Topre completely and utterly fails when playing these games.  I  won't pay $300.00 for a keyboard that can't play a simple fun game during a retro gaming party when a $40.00 Cherry switch or Alps keyboard works perfectly.



@USB 1.1 Fanbois and Topre Fanbois

Why should a 2012 keyboard be worse than a 1985 keyboard?  It doesn't make sense.

But the bottom line is that I need connectivity to PS/2 devices.  When I walk into a factory filled with robots built in the 1980s or 1990s and I try to plug in a Topre it fails.  Try to use an adapter: it fails.  Any keyboard that suffers some weird anti-PS/2 bigotry just isn't going to work on PS/2 devices.  Pretending that PS/2 devices all magically vanished isn't going to help anything.

I require a keyboard that works on PS/2.  No amount of trolling me is ever going to change that.  I will never buy a keyboard that has been rigged to not work on the millions of PS/2 electronic devices that exist on planet Earth.

I have explained over and over and over and over and over again in different threads why PS/2 is better than USB1.1.  I have explained in great detail (more detail that this msg) why I need a PS/2 compatible keyboard.  All the detached keyboards I have ever bought in my whole entire life were PS/2 compatible.  All they keyboards I buy in the near future will be PS/2 compatible.  I just recently bought 2 Rosewills which are miraculously compatible with PS/2 and the obsolete USB 1.1 protocol.  I also bought a CM QFR (not yet arrived) which is also miraculously compatible with PS/2 and USB 1.1.

Harassing me and insulting me is not going to change my requirements.

[daerid]

Why should a 2012 keyboard be worse than a 1985 keyboard?  It doesn't make sense.

This is completely subjective. Totally, and utterly, opinion.

But the bottom line is that I need connectivity to PS/2 devices.  When I walk into a factory filled with robots built in the 1980s or 1990s and I try to plug in a Topre it fails.  Try to use an adapter: it fails.  Any keyboard that suffers some weird anti-PS/2 bigotry just isn't going to work on PS/2 devices.  Pretending that PS/2 devices all magically vanished isn't going to help anything.

Nobody's pretending anything of the sort. You require PS/2. Fine, great. There's a ton of people who don't. Who's right? Who's correct? Nobody. Everybody. You just aren't Topre's market, that's all. No need to spend so much time and effort trashing them when obviously they make keyboards for a target audience that is much different than you.

I require a keyboard that works on PS/2.  No amount of trolling me is ever going to change that.  I will never buy a keyboard that has been rigged to not work on the millions of PS/2 electronic devices that exist on planet Earth.

Nobody's trying to troll you. It just rubs us the wrong way when you come in here all bashing Topre keyboards for what amounts to personal preference.

I have explained over and over and over and over and over again in different threads why PS/2 is better than USB1.1.  I have explained in great detail (more detail that this msg) why I need a PS/2 compatible keyboard.  All the detached keyboards I have ever bought in my whole entire life were PS/2 compatible.  All they keyboards I buy in the near future will be PS/2 compatible.  I just recently bought 2 Rosewills which are miraculously compatible with PS/2 and the obsolete USB 1.1 protocol.  I also bought a CM QFR (not yet arrived) which is also miraculously compatible with PS/2 and USB 1.1.

Harassing me and insulting me is not going to change my requirements.

We're not trying to, but you make it difficult when you come in here and bash keyboards that people actually like. The people who like Topre keyboards love them, they work for them, and they have no problem with them. They obviously aren't your cup of tea. That's fine. But don't keep harping on them because you don't like them, and don't sit there telling people over and over again that your opinion is fact. It screams of bigotry. And that's what gets under peoples' skin and causes them to get all defensive and on your case about it.

[vun]

snip

We're not trying to make you change your requirements, what people are saying is that lack of support for a connector that is nearly obsolete does not make it a defect product. Very few typists will notice the lack of NKRO, and while you might argue that gamers will sometimes need it, guess what, gamers aren't their target market. They don't care about what gamers want. They don't care what factories use. Target ****ing market. From what I've read; Realforce targets their keyboards primarily against office workers in Asia.
Also, you say you're an "indy game coder", why would you need your keyboard to work in factories with old machinery? Even if that's your job, why would you buy a $300 board to use in factories?

TLDR;
Nobody is trying to tell you what you want or need from a board, people are just calling you out when you say stupid ****.

[iri]

looks like this totalchaos is an unusually successful troll.

I have a monstrous Model F-122

i envy you much, bad-tempered old man.

[Glod]

Target markets indeed. Gotta have them all! Buy them, Build them, Sell them, Trade them! We work hard for our money, let's reward ourselves

[Polymer]

• Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.

Sometimes when I type fast I have 3 fingers down on keys... they are in the process of releasing the key but have not actually gone up the whole 2mm to trigger the KEYUP event, when I then press down 4 more keys (usually on my other hand).  This action requires 7kro and fails on  $300.00 Topre keyboards.

• I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.

I do the same thing.  I have tons of oldskool games that, for whatever reason, were programmed to use the keyboard.  Some of them use joysticks for players 1 and 2 and players 3 and 4 must use keyboard. 

I even have a few games that we played with 3 ppl on the keyboard at once.  6kro on a Topre completely and utterly fails when playing these games.  I  won't pay $300.00 for a keyboard that can't play a simple fun game during a retro gaming party when a $40.00 Cherry switch or Alps keyboard works perfectly.

Why not run multiple USB keyboards?  So that people actually have space to play and it eliminates the 6KRO for two people problem (or at least I think it does since I'm trying it on two 6KRO keyboards right now)?  PS2 isn't exclusive to NKRO..there are plenty of old school keyboards that aren't NKRO and are PS2..one of my favorite old school keyboards (Focus 2001) is PS2 and 2KRO...How did you play those games back then when we all had 2KRO on PS2?  Model F wasn't 2KRO but Model M was...

A smarter person might come up with alternatives knowing PS2 interfaces won't be around forever if you need them for your retro games with 4 people no less...I just gave you a very good one..even with NKRO I'd try to get each person their own set of keys rather than try sharing...that is what we did when we were kids and had only one keyboard and no money...

This doesn't even get into the fact that I think Topre fails for gaming in general anyways..I don't think I'd want to game on it....but apparently even though you have several mech keyboards, each one must be able to be used for everything...
[/list]

[davkol]

• Most people have 10, not only six fingers on their hands. There are some use cases that depend on something better than 6KRO — it could be a rhythm game or some sort of chorded keyboard emulation.

Sometimes when I type fast I have 3 fingers down on keys... they are in the process of releasing the key but have not actually gone up the whole 2mm to trigger the KEYUP event, when I then press down 4 more keys (usually on my other hand).  This action requires 7kro and fails on  $300.00 Topre keyboards.

• I sometimes play old-school multiplayer games with my friends... that's often two or three people on one keyboard. 3KRO for each is certainly not enough.

I do the same thing.  I have tons of oldskool games that, for whatever reason, were programmed to use the keyboard.  Some of them use joysticks for players 1 and 2 and players 3 and 4 must use keyboard. 

I even have a few games that we played with 3 ppl on the keyboard at once.  6kro on a Topre completely and utterly fails when playing these games.  I  won't pay $300.00 for a keyboard that can't play a simple fun game during a retro gaming party when a $40.00 Cherry switch or Alps keyboard works perfectly.

Why not run multiple USB keyboards?  So that people actually have space to play and it eliminates the 6KRO for two people problem (or at least I think it does since I'm trying it on two 6KRO keyboards right now)?  PS2 isn't exclusive to NKRO..there are plenty of old school keyboards that aren't NKRO and are PS2..one of my favorite old school keyboards (Focus 2001) is PS2 and 2KRO...How did you play those games back then when we all had 2KRO on PS2?  Model F wasn't 2KRO but Model M was...

A smarter person might come up with alternatives knowing PS2 interfaces won't be around forever if you need them for your retro games with 4 people no less...I just gave you a very good one..even with NKRO I'd try to get each person their own set of keys rather than try sharing...that is what we did when we were kids and had only one keyboard and no money...

This doesn't even get into the fact that I think Topre fails for gaming in general anyways..I don't think I'd want to game on it....but apparently even though you have several mech keyboards, each one must be able to be used for everything...
[/list]

Gaming on vintage keyboards sucks. I tried to play some very simple racing games, and two pressed arrows blocked the third one I occasionally needed.

Carrying more keyboards (and most people don't have even 6KRO keyboards) to parties/school by bus, in a backpack — sucks too.

[TotalChaos]

Why not run multiple USB keyboards?

I said "oldskool games".  That means games from 1980s and 1990s which are still very fun to play but exist only on systems which do not have USB keyboard support and never will.  These games are free to download from the internet and supply endless hours of fun for no charge.


> But u can buy a USB card for those old computers!

Yes u can but then it wrecks the games as the CPU has to constantly poll the USB devices asking "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?" "Did you press a key?"   its completely ridiculous.

Forcing old computers to use USB in the best case makes the games all sluggish with dropped frames or in the worst case stops them from working at all.

Obviously new games made for new systems can use multiple USB 1.1 keyboards if they like.  But then there is not much reason to use keyboards at all.  New games can use real controllers like the Xbox 360 controller or PS2 controllers, etc.

[TotalChaos]

Gaming on vintage keyboards sucks.

You mean "gaming on garbage vintage keyboards sucks."

I tried to play some very simple racing games, and two pressed arrows blocked the third one I occasionally needed.

You were using an awful keyboard.

I have vintage 1980s and 1990s keyboards that are better than that and millions of them were produced so they were not rare.

[TotalChaos]

How did you play those games back then when we all had 2KRO on PS2?

If you paid money for a 2kro keyboard then you got ripped off, sorry.  2kro is really abyssmal, even by 1980s standards.

[davkol]

Which games don't run in any emulator?

Which keyboards do you mean?

You keep saying something about keyboard science everywhere except this thread, it's been quite the opposite here.

[MissMurd3r84]

How did you play those games back then when we all had 2KRO on PS2?

If you paid money for a 2kro keyboard then you got ripped off, sorry.  2kro is really abyssmal, even by 1980s standards.

With such knowledge and equipment already, why are you coming here asking for help in finding a keyboard? You already seem to have such wonderful vintage keyboards that do what you want. Also, I'd have not even replied to start with to this thread other than for the fact you so clearly made a false statement about Topre (re: defective) and I am not a Topre fangirl, as I have never used one or owned one.

[Polymer]

Gaming on vintage keyboards sucks.

You mean "gaming on garbage vintage keyboards sucks."

I tried to play some very simple racing games, and two pressed arrows blocked the third one I occasionally needed.

You were using an awful keyboard.

I have vintage 1980s and 1990s keyboards that are better than that and millions of them were produced so they were not rare.

Back then 2KRO was pretty standard if I remember correctly...Model Ms were 2KRO...Many Alps based keyboards were 2KRO back then...Most keyboards in general were 2KRO ( 2KRO does not mean only 2 keys but depending on the combination you might be stuck with a max of 2KRO)...NKRO was quite unusual.  Which keyboards were you using from back then?  Since you haven't used Alps or Buckling Spring, this will prove to be an interesting response...

Also, why wouldn't you just run an emulator?  You can clock them down if speed is an issue..what is actually the point of running it on an old old pc?

The weird thing w/ your argument is you start off saying you can't use 6KRO on USB because 6KRO won't satisfy your legacy multi game situations....and you end it saying you can't use USB anyways.  Which is it?

[dotancohen]

I googled around for MS Natural 4000 force graphs.  Couldn't find one.  Does one exist somewhere?

There does not seem to be any way of removing that giant wrist rest?

That wrist rest is a deal breaker for me as it sits right where my mouse goes.

I am not a fan of split keyboards anyway.  I typed on some kind of "ergo" keyboard that looked similar to the MS Natural 4000 but it was mostly white as I recall.  It was back around 2000-2004 time frame.  It was definitely not ergonomic.  The keys were very painful as it took a lot of force to overcome the rubberdome and them *BAM* u smacked into the PCB.  Also I found the split to be very uncomfortable.   I wouldn't mind a small split with small angle or no angle.

Any other keyboards as mushy as MS Natural 4000?  Even mushier would be better   And less force too

Preferably just a keyboard, not an entire dashboard 

Like all rubber dome keyboards, the MS 4000 can be easily modified to reduce the actuation pressure. Just carefully cut a hole in the rubber dome where the crease is. I've done this to at least half a dozen keyboards, including the 4000 MS. I just recently tossed an MS 4000 modified in this manner for other reasons (binding on off-center keypresses).

As for the wrist rest, I think that you'll be stuck with it. There is PCB under it if I remember correctly, due to having two buttons in the middle. I'll look around if I have any photos of the open case.

[dotancohen]

Here, I found one! It looks like you could move that PCB.

[dotancohen]

Here is a photo of cutting slits in the rubber membrane to reduce the actuation pressure. I've since learned that actual holes work better, as slits take the pressure off the end of the stroke but hole take pressure off the beginning of the stroke. Yes, my fingertips are sensitive enough to tell (that is a curse, not a blessing).

[TotalChaos]

Here is a photo of cutting slits in the rubber membrane to reduce the actuation pressure. I've since learned that actual holes work better, as slits take the pressure off the end of the stroke but hole take pressure off the beginning of the stroke.
(Attachment Link)

O.... M..... G....

Keyboard Science of the Year award to you!

This is the most wonderfully amazingly useful piece of information I have ever been given on GeekHack!

You are saying I can mush up any old rubberdome keyboard I want by simply cutting holes in the domes??

So I spent $500.00 on Cherry Switch keyboards (so far) for nothing?

I have stacks of PS/2 rubberdome keyboards laying around here that work perfectly but the domes are far to stiff.  They used to sell them everywhere for $5.00 and give them away free at Fry's with $99.00 computers.

But once I collapse the dome with large input of energy I suddenly fly down into the membrane/pcb at high velocity in a painful crash.   

So how on Earth do I cut a hole into a rubberdome instead of a slit?
What tool do I use?  What diameter of hole do I set the tool to use?

I assume the tool I use must be very accurate since a too big hole would make the dome collapse too easily?

I would absolutely LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE to try out a 30g rubberdome keyboard!  45g would be nice too!

Have u tried other things such as:
Make a small hole in the top of the rubberdome and poke pinprick holes in the sides of the rubberdome?  The pinpricks would weaken the dome in another location without completely destroying the structural integrity of the cup rubber.


Is there some factor about the way the membrane is made that causes a rubberdome keyboard to be more or less mushy?

I want MOAR Mushiness! 

Yes, my fingertips are sensitive enough to tell (that is a curse, not a blessing).

  I know what u mean.  I have ridiculously hypersensitive fingers.  I can feel the bumps on a perfectly smooth piece of paper and other weird things.  The volume level on my nerves is permanently turned all the way to maximum.

[TotalChaos]

I just recently tossed an MS 4000 modified in this manner for other reasons (binding on off-center keypresses).

You are not supposed to toss rubberdomes.  You are supposed to cut out the insides and then you have............ wait for it.......

Free Ghetto O-Rings! 

Useful on all Cherry switch keyboards!
(assuming the diameter of the circle is the correct size.  Some rubberdomes are the perfect size, others not.)

[dotancohen]

You are saying I can mush up any old rubberdome keyboard I want by simply cutting holes in the domes??

So I spent $500.00 on Cherry Switch keyboards (so far) for nothing?

Every rubber dome that I've come across I've been able to modify. But that only makes the keys easier to press, there are other issues with rubber domes, such as the shock of bottoming out.

You did not spend the money on the Cherries for nothing. I am right now typing on a Cherry Red board and I love the switches. The hard plastic keycap is another matter. I like to cover them in leather!

But once I collapse the dome with large input of energy I suddenly fly down into the membrane/pcb at high velocity in a painful crash.   

That is why I recommend taking the pressure off the top of the stroke and not the bottom.

So how on Earth do I cut a hole into a rubberdome instead of a slit?
What tool do I use?  What diameter of hole do I set the tool to use?

I assume the tool I use must be very accurate since a too big hole would make the dome collapse too easily?

Have u tried other things such as:
Make a small hole in the top of the rubberdome and poke pinprick holes in the sides of the rubberdome?  The pinpricks would weaken the dome in another location without completely destroying the structural integrity of the cup rubber.

I use a small pair of curved scissors meant for cutting fingernails. I'll upload a photo.

You will need to do lots of experimentation to decide how large and how many holes to cut. I usually do the left pinky fingers first, very conservatively, then after typing on that for a few days I go back in and cut away. I have tried poking holes, but I do not remember that giving any satisfactory result. However, I encourage you to experiment and see what works for your fingers and with your rubber/silicon dome materials. There is quite a bit of variety of materials used in the domes, which is why I test type on a subset of the keys first before modding the entire board.

Yes, my fingertips are sensitive enough to tell (that is a curse, not a blessing).

  I know what u mean.  I have ridiculously hypersensitive fingers.  I can feel the bumps on a perfectly smooth piece of paper and other weird things.  The volume level on my nerves is permanently turned all the way to maximum.

I am not alone! I cannot feel the bumps on smooth paper, though. I seem to be tuned to pressure, not spacial resolution.

[TotalChaos]

You are saying I can mush up any old rubberdome keyboard I want by simply cutting holes in the domes??

So I spent $500.00 on Cherry Switch keyboards (so far) for nothing?

Every rubber dome that I've come across I've been able to modify. But that only makes the keys easier to press, there are other issues with rubber domes, such as the shock of bottoming out.

You did not spend the money on the Cherries for nothing. I am right now typing on a Cherry Red board and I love the switches.

Me too.

The hard plastic keycap is another matter. I like to cover them in leather!

Aha!  I had heard rumors of your existence.  But the great rootwyrm calamtiy of 2012 destroyed all evidence of your existence!

I am covering mine in 10A rubber, when it arrives.  I hope it works out.

Having leather covered keys sounds fun tho.  Like caressing a really really raw hamburger.  )

So how on Earth do I cut a hole into a rubberdome instead of a slit?
What tool do I use?  What diameter of hole do I set the tool to use?

I assume the tool I use must be very accurate since a too big hole would make the dome collapse too easily?

I use a small pair of curved scissors meant for cutting fingernails.

Waaaay too much pain for me.  I will try to figure out something simpler and more direct.  I will probably destroy all my rubberdomes before I actually figure out a method that works 100%

[dotancohen]

Aha!  I had heard rumors of your existence.  But the great rootwyrm calamtiy of 2012 destroyed all evidence of your existence!

Geekhack is not the only venue in which my existence is in doubt.

EDIT: The linked post is an astronomy riddle, one of which I write weekly for on Toms Astronomy Blog. I do remember some Geekhackers talking about astronomy before the Great Calamity, so of those I suggest that you go check out the site. I post a new riddle every Saturday, though the linked riddle was posted after I missed two consecutive Saturdays, hence my existence in doubt. Also, the wording of that post was based on a running joke by the previous riddle-poster.