Blues without hysteresis?

[ianxblog]

Hello..

Im still trying to find the perfect switch for me.
My experiences with mechanical switches are White ALPS (tried once, liked it so far), Capacitive Linear BTC foil-and-foam [cherry mx red like] (too light and i light tactile click/bump), MX blues (Tried once, loved it) and Im going to buy and Blue ALPS board (Didn't used it yet).

However, I think the switch for me may be Browns.

What I would really like is blues but without hysteresis. I really like the feel of blues, except for that. I prefer a click instead of a bump (browns).

Is there any switch that offers something like this?

[aref]

I know what hysteresis means; but I don't understand how it relates to Cherry MX Blue switches. Please explain, if you would.

[ianxblog]

I know what hysteresis means; but I don't understand how it relates to Cherry MX Blue switches. Please explain, if you would.

What I mean is that the reset point is higher that the actuation point. So, you got to almost unpress a key to activate it again.
This is no good for tapping a key repeatedly, as you would have to do the full travel every time. (GAMING)

I think it happens on Buckling Springs too.

[aref]

I understand; thanks for clarifying for me. I would think MX Brown switches would respond the same as
the MX Blue with respect to hysteresis.  I've owned MX Brown keyboards and actually prefer MX Red to
Brown in a low-gram-force switch. But switches are a matter of personal preference.

Have you tried Topre key switches? The 45-gram Topre may deliver the kind of performance you prefer.
Thus far I prefer Topre (55-gram switches) to Cherry MX; however, I have one MX keyboard because I get
to mod it as I choose, which is much more difficult to do with Topre-switch keyboards because there are
not many retail mods available for Topre switches.

Good luck in finding the right switch. I'm all too familiar with the quest, as many others on geekhack.

[ianxblog]

Some guy in this forum said that browns have no hysteresis, and I see they being reccomended as the switch for typing/gaming all over.
I guess maybe it's because inside the switch itself, blues are two pieces that one goes down and browns is alltogether.
Something like that.

Thanks

[daerid]

Generally hysteresis is the reason that linear switches are preferred by hardcore gamers (reds / blacks), as they don't suffer from it.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Some guy in this forum said that browns have no hysteresis …

That's correct. The Cherry MX patent (well, the one I could find) cites the design of the switch—with the movable collar—as being for hysteresis, which is later referred to as "movement differential". This only applies to the clicky switches, and these have a "cam" on the stem to visibly distinguish them. One of the questions I've put in for Ask Cherry Anything, is to how relevant the click sound was to the design of the switch; i.e. were Cherry only intending to achieve hysteresis, or did they also want the switch to click as well?

One switch that's comparable to Cherry MX blue but has no hysteresis, is the "Monterey" switch. I assume that Space Invader (NMB Hi-Tek) switches also have no hysteresis as the clicker is just an arm that runs around a track at the back of the switch, but I've never officially read either way with those; those are also considered comparable to MX blue if I remember correctly.

[user 18]

Can't really be done, the actuation/reset point differential is a characteristic of the blues, and can't really be changed.

I can throw in my personal experience using blues and browns, and say that the browns don't suffer from hysteresis to nearly the degree that blues do -- that is to say, I notice it using blues, and don't at all using browns (or rubber domes, but we don't talk about those ).

[Melvang]

Some guy in this forum said that browns have no hysteresis …

That's correct. The Cherry MX patent (well, the one I could find) cites the design of the switch—with the movable collar—as being for hysteresis, which is later referred to as "movement differential". This only applies to the clicky switches, and these have a "cam" on the stem to visibly distinguish them. One of the questions I've put in for Ask Cherry Anything, is to how relevant the click sound was to the design of the switch; i.e. were Cherry only intending to achieve hysteresis, or did they also want the switch to click as well?

One switch that's comparable to Cherry MX blue but has no hysteresis, is the "Monterey" switch. I assume that Space Invader (NMB Hi-Tek) switches also have no hysteresis as the clicker is just an arm that runs around a track at the back of the switch, but I've never officially read either way with those; those are also considered comparable to MX blue if I remember correctly.

So based on how my head is wrapping around the mechanism of the Monterey switches, would it be possible to have a clicky linear switch?

[1pq]

I suppose you might want to try ergo-clears as they are very tactile and are roughly equivalent force-wise (depending on the springs you use). They also don't have hysteresis. They've been described by some as more tactile browns, so if you want the tactility of blues but want easier double taps, you should try ergo-clears.

[Melvang]

I can confirm that clears, lubed and not, and ergo-clears, both lubed and not have much more tactility than either dry or lubed browns.

[dorkvader]

So based on how my head is wrapping around the mechanism of the Monterey switches, would it be possible to have a clicky linear switch?

This is not possible using normal techniques. The click comes from added energy that is released. Since the energy is harvested from the key travel, then it must have hysterisis. The amount of energy released in the click being proportional to the "area" of hysteresis.

Now, you can get around it by adding energy from elsewhere (like with using a speaker, or solenoid). You can also get around it by using magnetic force. This is why reed switches are linear, but you can hear a faint click on actuation.

[Findecanor]

What I would really like is blues but without hysteresis. I really like the feel of blues, except for that. I prefer a click instead of a bump (browns).

SMK blue "Monterey" switches feel a lot like Cherry MX Blue without hysteresis, but somewhat more tactile.
I have also been told that NMB Hi-Tek "Space Invader" switches of the clicky variety would also feel a lot like Cherry MX Blue, but I have never tried them myself.

Both types are vintage switches, found in some old keyboards. Neither is compatible with Cherry MX or Alps, and require both custom PCBs and plates. The SMK switches take Alps keycaps.

[jacobolus]

SMK blue "Monterey" switches feel a lot like Cherry MX Blue without hysteresis, but somewhat more tactile. [...] Both types are vintage switches, found in some old keyboards. Neither is compatible with Cherry MX or Alps, and require both custom PCBs and plates. The SMK switches take Alps keycaps.

Note, the SMK switches are compatible with Cherry MX plates (at least, the kind with simple square holes), and compatible with Alps keycaps. (But not compatible with PCBs for either.)

So if you are willing to do direct wiring and provide your own controller (e.g. a Teensy 2.0), and you can find Alps keycaps from a board that used Costar-style stabilizers (or buy some new ones from SP), then you can use the SMK switches with a plate and case designed for MX switches.

[Findecanor]

I'm not sure that SMKs can be snapped into a plate and stay there. You would need a PCB also.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

This is not possible using normal techniques. The click comes from added energy that is released. Since the energy is harvested from the key travel, then it must have hysterisis. The amount of energy released in the click being proportional to the "area" of hysteresis.

As I understand it, hysteresis in switches means that the reset point is higher than the actuation point. i.e. you can't "hover" around the actuation point and repeatedly actuate and release the switch with only the tiniest of movement.

Now it's also true that clicky switches will tend to "catapult" the slider downwards when the clicker energy is released, but in Alps- and SMK-type switches this has no bearing on hysteresis. When you release the switch back up to the pretravel distance, the contacts will open. It's not all that hard to press a clicky switch lightly enough that it will actuate but not bottom out; with Cherry MX blue and buckling spring, easing up a little bit won't release the contacts, but with an Alps- or SMK-type switch (including Omron, KPT etc) it will.

As to why Cherry went to so much trouble to achieve hysteresis, I have no idea, especially as the lack of it doesn't seem to cause a problem for other switches. With buckling spring, I guess it's just that the spring won't snap back into position at the same point where it buckled; whether this was intended, I don't know.

So based on how my head is wrapping around the mechanism of the Monterey switches, would it be possible to have a clicky linear switch?

It would be very hard. A click requires building up and releasing force, and you would need to do that in such a way that you can't feel it. The best I can think of would be to build up this energy when the key returns home, such that depressing the key only triggers the click, without needing to "charge" it first. The switch wouldn't be linear on the upstroke, but you're far less likely to notice that. You may also need a more powerful return spring to charge the clicker, potentially resulting in a stiffer switch.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I'm not sure that SMKs can be snapped into a plate and stay there. You would need a PCB also.

SMK switches are indeed genuinely plate mounted, though at least one design also has fixing pins for PCB mounting.

[jacobolus]

I'm not sure that SMKs can be snapped into a plate and stay there. You would need a PCB also.

No, they snap in very snugly, assuming the plate holes are the usual size.

They need a metal plate that’s not too thick though, for the plastic clips to grab. I imagine that e.g. a thick acrylic plate wouldn’t work too well.