Question about 45g Topre vs MX Brown

[YOUR_A_DUMB_IDIOT]

Hey there,

I was just curious about how the keys feel in terms of their depression force, do they feel easier, harder or around the same to actuate as MX browns?

Yes, I'm aware that MX Browns are weighted at ~45 grams as well.

Thanks in advance!

[skuko]

that is a really mature name you've got there, cowboy. i'm sure you will receive plenty of nice information around here

also "YOU'RE" =/= "YOUR"

[hwood34]

also "YOU'RE" =/= "YOUR"

*thatsthejoke

[YOUR_A_DUMB_IDIOT]

also "YOU'RE" =/= "YOUR"

*thatsthejoke

This guy right here

[hwood34]

Irony is hard for some people

[Veridis]

Hey there,

I was just curious about how the keys feel in terms of their depression force, do they feel easier, harder or around the same to actuate as MX browns?

Yes, I'm aware that MX Browns are weighted at ~45 grams as well.

Thanks in advance!

Although they are both rated 45g, Topre switches feel slightly harder than browns. This is because you can build momentum before the slight tactile bump on browns, but with topre you have to overcome the tactile bump right at the top.

Imagine clicking a pen vs popping bubble wrap.

[skuko]

also "YOU'RE" =/= "YOUR"

*thatsthejoke

could've fooled me...

[hwood34]

also "YOU'RE" =/= "YOUR"

*thatsthejoke

could've fooled me...

Well, you get a pass since English isn't your first language . AND on topic, while I don't have much experience with topre, you also need to factor in the material of the plate, or sometimes in the case of MX, the lack of one. Plastic or no plate has a little give when you depress the key, making feel heavier

[DrHubblePhD]

I use both regularly and topre do feel a little heavier switching from Browns, it's not huge though, you can easily get used to it!

[GL1TCH3D]

Topre is definitely a bit heavier. The tactile feedback is a lot more pronounced on topre.

[Hyde]

I can also attest that Topre is slightly heavier, you get used to it though.

Then after a while you'll start to feel like 45g Topre might be just a tad bit too light.

[YOUR_A_DUMB_IDIOT]

Awesome, thanks for the replies guys! I was unsure about Topre since my browns are just very slightly too light for my liking (along with not being a fan of their grittiness), so Topre being slightly heavier is exactly what I was hoping for! Cheers.

[Hypersphere]

Having tried mx browns (as well as mx clears, reds, blacks, blues, and greens) and now as a regular user of Topre-switch keyboards (Leopold FC660C, HHKB Pro 2, RF 87ub 45g, RF 87ub 55g, and Novatouch), I find that actuation force is only a small part of the difference between browns and 45g Topres. All Cherry mx switches are inherently linear, even though some (like browns) have a tactile bump grafted onto the switch stem. Because the spring inside the switch housing in Cherry mx switches can only compress without buckling, the force continues to rise after the actuation point in the force-displacement curve. In contrast, with a Topre switch, after an initial compression, the elastic dome collapses, and the force decreases after the actuation point in the force-displacement curve. To me, Topre switches have a pleasant tactile feedback, somewhat like tripping a weighted piano key on a real piano, whereas mx browns feel like mx reds with a piece of grit on the switch stem. In any event, I much prefer the feel (as well as the sound) of Topre switchs over any of the Cherry mx switches.

[YOUR_A_DUMB_IDIOT]

Having tried mx browns (as well as mx clears, reds, blacks, blues, and greens) and now as a regular user of Topre-switch keyboards (Leopold FC660C, HHKB Pro 2, RF 87ub 45g, RF 87ub 55g, and Novatouch), I find that actuation force is only a small part of the difference between browns and 45g Topres. All Cherry mx switches are inherently linear, even though some (like browns) have a tactile bump grafted onto the switch stem. Because the spring inside the switch housing in Cherry mx switches can only compress without buckling, the force continues to rise after the actuation point in the force-displacement curve. In contrast, with a Topre switch, after an initial compression, the elastic dome collapses, and the force decreases after the actuation point in the force-displacement curve. To me, Topre switches have a pleasant tactile feedback, somewhat like tripping a weighted piano key on a real piano, whereas mx browns feel like mx reds with a piece of grit on the switch stem. In any event, I much prefer the feel (as well as the sound) of Topre switchs over any of the Cherry mx switches.

Wow, thank you very much for all of that detail! It definitely sounds like Topre is the switch for me.

[rowdy]

Irony is hard for some people

If only we could make keycaps our of irony.

And springs out of bitterness.

[skuko]

Having tried mx browns (as well as mx clears, reds, blacks, blues, and greens) and now as a regular user of Topre-switch keyboards (Leopold FC660C, HHKB Pro 2, RF 87ub 45g, RF 87ub 55g, and Novatouch), I find that actuation force is only a small part of the difference between browns and 45g Topres. All Cherry mx switches are inherently linear, even though some (like browns) have a tactile bump grafted onto the switch stem. Because the spring inside the switch housing in Cherry mx switches can only compress without buckling, the force continues to rise after the actuation point in the force-displacement curve. In contrast, with a Topre switch, after an initial compression, the elastic dome collapses, and the force decreases after the actuation point in the force-displacement curve. To me, Topre switches have a pleasant tactile feedback, somewhat like tripping a weighted piano key on a real piano, whereas mx browns feel like mx reds with a piece of grit on the switch stem. In any event, I much prefer the feel (as well as the sound) of Topre switchs over any of the Cherry mx switches.

i didn't understand all of these comparisons, up until last week, when i bought a FC660C. i was lost, but now i'm found. the above is probably the best topre vs mx description

Irony is hard for some people

If only we could make keycaps our of irony.

And springs out of bitterness.

yes yes, rub it in. my sarcasm detector failed, but i fixed it since then

[Grim Fandango]

I think that the actuation force necessary feels about the same (to me), with 45g Topre perhaps feeling a tad bit heavier.

But I feel more like Topre feel different rather than heavier or lighter. The difference is mostly that the tactile bump is in the beginning, and then kind of disappears as the key is easy to press the rest of the way. I think this is why they are often compared to piano keys (in addition to the landing when bottoming out), which have a similar kind of resistance in the beginning that kind of falls away as you press it. This heavier resistance near the top makes it feel as though Topre require a little bit more force.

But you asked whether they feel easier, harder, or around the same. Most people here have said harder. Personally I think that if you use them over a longer period and consider how heavy they feel overall (which is not just about the initial feel when you press on individual key) I would personally say about the same. Reds, for example, because of their linearity feel easier to me (despite requiring the same actuation force), but I would rate 45g Topre and browns really quite similar. Or let me put it differently, I think they are similar enough that it is the distinct feel of the switch, not how "easy" they feel, that would be the most important difference between them (to me).

[Oobly]

Both. They feel harder at the start of the press, then easier once the rubber dome collapses. The bottom out on stock MX switches is also harder, whereas Topre have a softer bottom out due to the rubber domes. Overall, I'd say about the same impulse is used to press either type.

I like Browns, but I feel 45g Topre are a little too light (although weirdly enough the Leopold FC660C ones feel okay). It's really more to do with the different feeling of the switch than the actual force, I reckon.

@Hypersphere, I could also argue that Topre are inherently linear due to having a spring in them. They both have 2 components which create the feeling of the switch. Topre has rubber dome and light spring, Cherry MX has heavier spring and shaped slider which presses against a leaf spring. I don't think anyone would be able to describe ErgoClears as linear and keep a straight face.

[Hypersphere]

It is my understanding that most of the resistance in a Topre switch comes from the rubber dome. The conical spring is part of the capacitance sensing mechanism. The tactility of the Topre arises from collapse of the rubber dome.

Cherry mx clears have a heavier spring and a more pronounced bump than mx browns, but they operate in the same way. The spring can only be compressed; there is no place for it to go in order to buckle or collapse. In contrast, in an IBM buckling spring, the spring initially compresses until reaching a critical point, at which the spring buckles, twisting to one side in the oversized barrel as it does so.

Here is a force-displacement curve for an mx clear switch:



Obviously, this curve is not a straight line, but the bump arises from the slider overcoming an obstacle (a bump on the slider) while the spring is being compressed. Starting out with a force of about 40 cN, the spring compresses and the force increases to a peak of about 65 cN as the bump on the slider is passed, whereupon unhindered compression of the spring continues. The actuation point occurs at about 2 mm of displacement, and the force continues to increase to the bottom of the stroke. Although the spring can only compress in a Hooke's Law fashion, the bump on the slider provides a momentary rise and fall in force required to continue compressing the spring. The return stroke does not retrace the downward stroke; it exhibits hysteresis.

Here is a force-displacement curve for Topre switches:



Looking at the top curve for a 45g (~45 cN) Topre, force increases to a peak of about 45 cN and then falls as the rubber dome collapses. As with the mx clear, the actuation (operating) point occurs at about 2 mm downward displacement, but unlike the mx clear, the force continues to decrease past the actuation point and then rises sharply as the switch is bottomed out. As with the clear switch, the Topre recovery stroke does not retrace the downward stroke, thereby exhibiting hysteresis.

[Schwarz]

Topre feels much heavier, so much so that I can feel it slowing me down if I'm typing near 130-150wpm.

I don't like Topre for gaming either, too much resistance

EDIT: I'm not saying it's impossible to type fast on topre. But for my typing style, which is pretty light, topre feels too heavy.

[Hypersphere]

Topre feels much heavier, so much so that I can feel it slowing me down if I'm typing near 130-150wpm.

I don't like Topre for gaming either, too much resistance

Wow! I can't imagine typing that fast! I am a slow, methodical typist, savoring every keystroke. My current favorite switch is 55g Topre. I am reasonably accurate, but slow. I seem to be faster on my 45g Topre, but I have not accumulated enough data to be certain.

It would be interesting to know the distribution of switch types (and weights) people use who can type very fast with high accuracy.

[skuko]

Topre feels much heavier, so much so that I can feel it slowing me down if I'm typing near 130-150wpm.

I don't like Topre for gaming either, too much resistance

you don't say?

maybe you're doing it wrong

P.S. that's not me typing, i can't even type with 10 fingers, but i still like my FC660C for both typing and gaming (only had it for a week though)

[Veridis]

Topre feels much heavier, so much so that I can feel it slowing me down if I'm typing near 130-150wpm.

I don't like Topre for gaming either, too much resistance

Wow! I can't imagine typing that fast! I am a slow, methodical typist, savoring every keystroke. My current favorite switch is 55g Topre. I am reasonably accurate, but slow. I seem to be faster on my 45g Topre, but I have not accumulated enough data to be certain.

It would be interesting to know the distribution of switch types (and weights) people use who can type very fast with high accuracy.

I can't type as fast as others here, but on 10 fast fingers top 200 words test I usually get around 90wpm, highest was 102. Doesn't seem to change much on all my keyboards, but on Topre and blue mx switches I bottom out, on browns I try to float around the keys.

[Smasher816]

Topre 45 feels about right to me, and 45g browns feel too light. So I agree with what many others have said - topre feels heavier.

[ConscienceDrop]

Topre feels much heavier, so much so that I can feel it slowing me down if I'm typing near 130-150wpm.

I don't like Topre for gaming either, too much resistance

you don't say?

maybe you're doing it wrong

P.S. that's not me typing, i can't even type with 10 fingers, but i still like my FC660C for both typing and gaming (only had it for a week though)

Maybe he would have been even faster without topre >8^)