Model F AT – $100 BIN or Make Offer

[ander]

IBM VINTAGE PERSONAL COMPUTER AT KEYBOARD

$100 BIN or Make Offer. Seems like a good chance for someone to get an AT in reasonable shape—a few paint scrapes and missing one key, but otherwise complete and no cracks in case—for, like, $80 possibly?

[fohat.digs]

At $120 shipped that seems about right.

You can find one cheaper if you are patient, but if you are lusting after one of these and want a "sure thing" you should just buy it.

An "L" key is very easy to replace, although if this one has 1-piece keys you may have to substitute a 2-piece.

[ander]

At $120 shipped that seems about right.

Since this buyer also had "Make an Offer," it seemed like they didn't fully appreciate what they had—so I thought it could turn out a particularly sweet deal.

You can find one cheaper if you are patient, but if you are lusting after one of these and want a "sure thing" you should just buy it.

I agree, if you're sure it won't have legal repercussions, e.g. no longer being married.  :?|  (Apparently men say, "I'll take it! How much is it?" and women say "How much is it? I'll take it.")

An "L" key is very easy to replace...

Well, sure, esp. as you can use one from a Model M. I just mentioned it in the spirit of full disclosure and/or geekiness.

...although if this one has 1-piece keys you may have to substitute a 2-piece.

Fortunately, the Key Police never turn up unless someone rats on you—and I'd never tell.  :?)

[fohat.digs]

Ander has apparently been added to the list of geekhackers who can't be quoted.

"Make an Offer" is enabled by default in ebay and it is hard to remove. The trick is that you have to click the un-check box about a dozen times to actually make it work.

Do not assume that a seller is actually looking to entertain lowball offers.

[ander]

Ander has apparently been added to the list of geekhackers who can't be quoted.

Sorry? You mean the board's set up so certain people can't be quoted? Why would they do that? And have I done something to incur the admins' scorn? I'm certainly a noob compared to most of you guys, but I never intend to be offensive.

"Make an Offer" is enabled by default in ebay and it is hard to remove. The trick is that you have to click the un-check box about a dozen times to actually make it work...

Is that right! It's been a little while since I've sold anything there... That must be annoying when you didn't intend to use it.

That said, MAO is available only when you list at a fixed price, not on regular bidding auctions. So it seems natural that many sellers would like to give buyers a chance to offer less, as an alternative to not selling the item at all.

When you submit a listing, the complete page is shown to you before it goes "live", and those big blue "Place Bid" / "Buy it Now" / "Make an Offer" buttons are the most prominent things on the page (naturally, because eBay wants you to click 'em). So if someone leaves MAO on without meaning to, and they don't notice it when they see their draft, or on any subsequent viewings of their page, is it possible they're not paying enough attention?

Do not assume that a seller is actually looking to entertain lowball offers.

As a buyer, I'd never assume anyone had used MAO inadvertently. It doesn't cost anything to try it; the worst the seller can do is decline. I've gotten some surprisingly sweet deals with it myself. And if an auction is nearing its end and there are no bids, there's often an even better chance of having an offer accepted.

I'm not just trying to argue with you, fohat—you know the high esteem in which I hold you. But I've seen other GH members encourage us to make lowball offers, especially if we wouldn't otherwise bid (in which case you guarantee you won't win). In your own sticky "Ebay Buying Advice" thread in Great Finds:

I will say it yet again: put lowball snipes on everything and be patient.

Have I taken that out of context somehow?

[fohat.digs]

Perhaps it is my software or hardware (Firefox on AMD) or whatever, but there are certain members that "hang" my browser when I press the "quote" button.

It is strange and nobody seems to understand it, but I am not the only one it happens to. For example, I have not been able to quote jacobolus for about half a year, yet, inexplicably, a few weeks ago, I could quote him for about a week, then not.

I almost always sell Buy-It-Now at carefully considered prices which I drop incrementally when an item does not sell.

My guess is that some/many sellers get stuck with a "Make Offer" button that they don't want but do not know how to get rid of.

Of course, many sellers are just stabbing in the dark and will accept offers at well under their original asking prices, especially late in the game.

Lowball snipes are very different from lowball offers.

Sniping in the background at low dollar amounts is a very passive and rarely successful procedure, but it occasionally yields pleasant surprises.

[E TwentyNine]

Sorry? You mean the board's set up so certain people can't be quoted? Why would they do that? And have I done something to incur the admins' scorn? I'm certainly a noob compared to most of you guys, but I never intend to be offensive.

Just happens.  I'm testing this now to see if it works.  Happens with 10101010101whateverthehellthatnameis too.

Edit:  No problem quoting you.

[ander]

Perhaps it is my software or hardware (Firefox on AMD) or whatever, but there are certain members that "hang" my browser when I press the "quote" button... It is strange and nobody seems to understand it, but I am not the only one it happens to. For example, I have not been able to quote jacobolus for about half a year, yet, inexplicably, a few weeks ago, I could quote him for about a week, then not.

Ha ha, well, I'm glad to know it wasn't some negative setting applied to my account. That's funny.

That is a strange problem, fo. I’ve quoted lots of people here (it’s much easier than thinking of anything original) and never seen any glitches.

I almost always sell Buy-It-Now at carefully considered prices which I drop incrementally when an item does not sell.

That’s a good strategy too.

My guess is that some/many sellers get stuck with a "Make Offer" button that they don't want but do not know how to get rid of.

I agree, it doesn’t seem helpful to have MAO selected by default. I imagine eBay does that because they think it increases the chances of sales (and thus their earnings).

You can change a fixed-price auction as long as it’s active (until the item sells, or the listing expires or is canceled). But I’m sure you’re right, that some people wouldn't know how to make changes. There’s a small “Edit your listing” link there somewhere, but it’s not very obvious.

Of course, many sellers are just stabbing in the dark and will accept offers at well under their original asking prices, especially late in the game.

Yup, a lot of it is psychology. I’m not overly sympathetic for people who list truly valuable stuff with no clue what it’s worth, considering that we have at our disposal the most comprehensive research tool in history. If nothing else, one can check recent eBay selling prices easily enough.

Lowball snipes are very different from lowball offers... Sniping in the background at low dollar amounts is a very passive and rarely successful procedure, but it occasionally yields pleasant surprises.

Then I guess I don’t understand why you seem so philosophically opposed to the lowball thing. None of us is required to make them ourselves—but why be concerned about others doing it? Isn’t that just how the free market operates?

My wife likes to haggle over everything, even at chain stores—partly because she enjoys it, but also because she gets discounts more often than you'd think. (At least some of the times, I'm sure the vendors just want to get her out of their hair, LOL.) She says, “If you want to pay full price, don’t haggle!” It depends on how well an item is selling, and how much the seller wants to move it out the door. It’s been that way for thousands of years, as far as I know.

[fohat.digs]

Still can't quote you, but I hate haggling. I consider it demeaning and that I am lowering myself to an ugly level. Soliciting lower offers is tantamount to admitting that you were charging too much to begin with.

I list my wares at a price that I believe to be fair, and I am often insulted when people offer less.

There have been many discussions of this topic, including a long one only a few months ago.

I believe in honesty and transparency, and consider "price negotiations" to be a mechanism by which dishonest people are able to do business with one another. I cannot see any sort of "honor" in it on any conceivable level, although it is a "skill" that many people practice to "improve".

People have been doing it since the beginning of time, yes, but it is not something to be proud of. People are sneaky and selfish, and those are characteristics that I cannot respect.

I would rather do business with people who I believe are being truthful with me.

[ander]

Still can't quote you, but I hate haggling...

I couldn’t help being amused thinking how that statement, taken on its own, could sound like you were resisting haggling with the forum admins about restoring your quoting abilities. :?)

I totally understand and respect your views, dude, and thanks for explaining them. You’re obviously sincere, and your values are honourable. If your prices are always firm, and you’ve made that clear—in all fairness, buyers can’t read your mind—then no one has the right to contest them.

On a larger scale, though, negotiation is going on all the time, all around us. Not just in selling and buying, but in nearly every agreement people make to do anything. Negotiation and compromise are part of the fabric of life—whether it’s a kid negotiating a later bedtime, a couple negotiating where to have dinner out, or two countries negotiating a trade agreement.

You may approve or disapprove of eBay’s selling and buying options—but their purpose is to give buyers and sellers various means to make deals they’re both willing to make. No seller is required to accept any offer, any more than a buyer is required to make one. It’s all based on agreement. If there’s no agreement, there’s no deal.

Assuming people know how to use eBay properly, they go into it with their eyes wide open, using it as a tool to find people whose interests correspond with their own. And while I’m not trying to tell you how to be—I wouldn’t dream of that—it’s generally the people who are good at not taking things personally who find the most agreement, whether they’re buying, selling or both.

I don’t think I’ve ever known a successful businessperson, in any field, who didn’t consider that one of the most valuable skills they could have. These weren't sneaky or selfish; they considered the ability to be open-minded, accommodating and resilient as key to serving as many people as they could, on terms agreeable to everyone.

And just an interesting side note: In many cultures, haggling in the marketplace isn't just a tradition, it's expected. I’ve been to countries where merchants felt insulted if you didn’t try to negotiate lower prices. In these places, it’s considered disrespectful and antisocial for sellers to dictate terms and deny the buyer’s right to be part of the trading process. It just shows you how subjective these things can be. We all have ideas about what’s appropriate and what’s not, and they make complete sense to us—but they’re seldom universal.

[njbair]

Still can't quote you, but I hate haggling. I consider it demeaning and that I am lowering myself to an ugly level. Soliciting lower offers is tantamount to admitting that you were charging too much to begin with.

I list my wares at a price that I believe to be fair, and I am often insulted when people offer less.

There have been many discussions of this topic, including a long one only a few months ago.

I believe in honesty and transparency, and consider "price negotiations" to be a mechanism by which dishonest people are able to do business with one another. I cannot see any sort of "honor" in it on any conceivable level, although it is a "skill" that many people practice to "improve".

People have been doing it since the beginning of time, yes, but it is not something to be proud of. People are sneaky and selfish, and those are characteristics that I cannot respect.

I would rather do business with people who I believe are being truthful with me.

I read your EBay buying advice thread a while back. You seem to have objectively worked out how as a seller to make the best of a buyer's market. Really insightful. I think what it boils down to, for both buyers and sellers, is to determine your price floor (or ceiling, for buyers) and stick to that. You can take a financial loss and get a quicker result, but patience seems to pay off most of the time.

[fohat.digs]

You seem to have objectively worked out how as a seller to make the best of a buyer's market.

That is my goal.

Some people think of price negotiation as a game, and enjoy winning it.

To me, it is often just petty and mean-spirited, and I don't like to be forced to play it.

An auction is a game, but a straightforward sale of an object is not.

I have other pet peeves, with tipping being near the top of the list. And I waited tables most of my way through college, but it is still a bad system.

[njbair]

I have no problem with tipping per se, rather that the govt and restaurants have come to treat it as an official source of income. Servers should not have a special minimum wage.

[fohat.digs]

the govt and restaurants have come to treat it as an official source of income.

I work for a small company in the construction business. On a rare occasion, a homeowner will give the carpenters, who have often slaved away under the hot sun, rain, insects, or worse, doing truly hard, ugly work, for days or weeks on end, a tip of $20 or $50 or even $100 each, and they are overwhelmed with joy and appreciation.

My wife would never do such a thing, but lavishes tips on people such as hairdressers who work in air-conditioned salons and get paid well enough anyway.

Just don't get me started on the inequities in our society, with the (cough, cough) real-estate selling industry at the top of the list.

I have tried to use rotating quotes in my signature for that purpose.

[ander]

Just so there's no confusion: I'd never advocate that anyone be untruthful, or compel anyone to do anything they didn't want to do.

It's generally agreed, though, that psychology is a big and legitimate factor in trading, and that many people consider it an intrinsic part of the process—even an art, as many (ethical) negotiators and salespeople will tell you. After all, aside from the staples of life, most of our purchases are based on emotion, not logic.

So all I'm saying is, while we certainly have our personal feelings and preferences about buying and selling, I don't think any judgments about it can absolute.

Thanks for the chance to chat about it!

[njbair]

the govt and restaurants have come to treat it as an official source of income.

I work for a small company in the construction business. On a rare occasion, a homeowner will give the carpenters, who have often slaved away under the hot sun, rain, insects, or worse, doing truly hard, ugly work, for days or weeks on end, a tip of $20 or $50 or even $100 each, and they are overwhelmed with joy and appreciation.

My wife would never do such a thing, but lavishes tips on people such as hairdressers who work in air-conditioned salons and get paid well enough anyway.

Just don't get me started on the inequities in our society, with the (cough, cough) real-estate selling industry at the top of the list.

I have tried to use rotating quotes in my signature for that purpose.

That's a really interesting point of view, one I never thought about. My guess is that the folks who tip their construction workers are just generous people who also lavish big tips upon their restaurant servers.

I consider tipping as part of the cost of eating out. Just like a Coke costs extra than the 2 for $20 deal. I *never* don't tip, and 20% is my baseline with 15% as my minimum. I suppose my reasoning is at least partly because I know their wages are lower. I may not like that fact, but I can't take it out on the server who is powerless to change that fact. My wife and I also don't drink, so our bills are usually lower than the server's other tables, hence a higher baseline than average. I just think that's fair, especially if the server is courteous and actually doing a good job.

[fohat.digs]

That's a really interesting point of view, one I never thought about. generous people who also lavish big tips upon their restaurant servers.

I hope that this is not true.

My hope is that they recognize that some low-paid laborers are doing orders of magnitude more (painful) work for them at similarly low wages and are genuinely appreciative of that fact.

[njbair]

similarly low wages

According to U.S. News, the average waitperson earned less than $21K in 2013, including tips.

[fohat.digs]

the average waitperson earned less than $21K

You never report any of your tips except what shows on a credit card.

One of my best friends owned a popular and well-regarded restaurant for 3 years, and each year at least 2 of his waitresses made more (reported) money than he did.

[njbair]

the average waitperson earned less than $21K

You never report any of your tips except what shows on a credit card.

One of my best friends owned a popular and well-regarded restaurant for 3 years, and each year at least 2 of his waitresses made more (reported) money than he did.

Another good point. Anyways, we're waaaaay OT so let's call it a day. Really cool to hear your point of view on this, I love this kind of stuff.