Snappy Switches

[nateth]

Hey guys I'm looking for switch advice. I've been lurking for a while, and I bought my first mech board, a Pok3r with MX Clears, about three weeks ago.
   
One thing I noticed right out of the box was just how long and drawn out the tactile bump on the MX clears were. I got used to it, but I have to admit I was expecting something snappier or perhaps crisper but not necessarily weaker. (Funny how hard and subjective it can be to verbalize tactility.)
   
I'm looking for crisp (or perhaps sudden) tactility, but it doesn't have to be smooth like what I hear about Topre, Zealios & ErgoClears. Not that I'm against smoothness, but I just want that distinctive tactile (and quiet) feel more than anything. The "roughness" of the clears doesn't bother me at all.
   
I will say that I enjoyed the MX Clears ability to fight back past the point of actuation to keep you from bottoming out, but I'd be willing to sacrifice a little spring for a better snap.
   
Perhaps I should say that I like my switches how I like my women. Strong and snappy, but with just the right amount of cushion to hold on to. 
   
As I understand it, the Zealios 67g seems like it might be what I'm looking for, but I'm not sure. These are the descriptions at the Zeal PC site:

   ○ 65g Zealios - Smooth, long drawn out bump in the middle. Nice cushion at bottom out.
   ○ 67g Zealios - "Crisp" and "shorter duration" tactile bump that feels higher than the rest (this is due to the spring), more cushion than 65g counterpart.
   ○ 78g Zealios - First half of travel feels similar to 65g, heavier bottom out. Think of this variant as "cushiony" 65g Zealios.

If the 67g are crisper due to the spring then wouldn't that make the 78g all the more crisper??? If so, then why is it described as a cushiony 65g???
   
All that being said, I'd be putting custom SA (round 6) keycaps on top of these if that makes a difference.
Also, how do the Matias Quiet Click switches, and Topre compare to the above descriptions? (I understand it's hard to compare different switch types.)
   
I do realize that there are those Model M and Model F die-hards that will tell me to worship at the altar of the buckling spring, but I need something quiet and small for work. That being said, I do remember playing with an old Model F 'XT' keyboard on an IBM PC 5150 as a kid, and it was a holy and sacred feeling. Something I might buy for at home use.
   
Of course I find all of this fascinating and I'd like to keep exploring different tactile switches and keyboards.
   
I swear to God a keyboard/switch rental service would be a wonderful thing for newbs. I  just don't know if it would be that profitable, and/or if there would be too many issues regarding theft/damage, but it'd be nice.
   
Seriously though, what a time to be alive in keyboarding! I really can't believe just how vibrant this community is. Between the development of the Zealios switches, the V.EA currently on Massdrop, the insane variety of keycaps & the Ultimate Hacker Keyboard I'll go bankrupt.
   
I kinda got into a "retro" tech a few months ago when I got an Apple Newton. (FYI, I realize mech keyboards aren't retro, but it seems some of the best ones are.) I did a little programming in the Newton ToolKit as a sort of April Fools joke for an iOS Developer group I'm part of. Regrettably the whole Newton dev community is dying off, but that's comparing Apples to oranges.....or perhaps Cherries. (:drumroll: kill me now...  )

[chyros]

There are no snappy Cherry MX switches, so that rules out quite a lot right there xD . The way Cherry generates tactility in their switches more or less by definition results in switches with a very unclean, unsnappy tactile feel.

If you want something for at work, obviously buckling springs are not an option, as are most clicky switches really, so you're severely limited by this.

I'd advise checking out either Topre or Matias Quiet Click (which isn't clicky). Both are pretty silent (especially Matias) and properly tactile switches. Tactile Alps, especially salmon or orange, are extremely nice, but a bit louder. Maybe just low enough that you can get away with it. The sound is pretty divine tbh, I'd be surprised if anyone actually minded the noise xD .

[supamesican]

topre is very nice, but white alps style are a bit snappier, if by snappier you mean you feel the tactile all at once vs spread out like mx compatible do, matias quiet click is the quietest board for <$300 I think and costs less than topre. But topre feel a bit cushiony like you said you want.


you can always ask if you can bring in a greased unicomp board since those are quieter

[nateth]

topre is very nice, but white alps style are a bit snappier, if by snappier you mean you feel the tactile all at once vs spread out like mx compatible do, matias quiet click is the quietest board for <$300 I think and costs less than topre. But topre feel a bit cushiony like you said you want.


you can always ask if you can bring in a greased unicomp board since those are quieter

@#$%! You two just had to say that. I had a feeling I was going to have to try out the alps. 

Well following your advice I just got a used M0116 with a few missing keycaps. I'll clean it up if it needs it and see if I like the feel of it. If I like it as much as you say then chances are I'll buy into the Matias 60% since it has the proper PCB and plates. Now I just need to learn how to properly solder and desolder... 

[chyros]

topre is very nice, but white alps style are a bit snappier, if by snappier you mean you feel the tactile all at once vs spread out like mx compatible do, matias quiet click is the quietest board for <$300 I think and costs less than topre. But topre feel a bit cushiony like you said you want.


you can always ask if you can bring in a greased unicomp board since those are quieter

@#$%! You two just had to say that. I had a feeling I was going to have to try out the alps. 

Well following your advice I just got a used M0116 with a few missing keycaps. I'll clean it up if it needs it and see if I like the feel of it. If I like it as much as you say then chances are I'll buy into the Matias 60% since it has the proper PCB and plates. Now I just need to learn how to properly solder and desolder... 

You definitely need to try Alps! However, did you check whether the board is clean? Alps can get really bad when they're dirty...

[nateth]

It's in rough shape, but it looks relatively clean. I'll be sure to follow what I assume is your cleaning guide on youtube if they feel nasty. I intend on desoldering it and using the switches.

One other thing... what about the keycaps? I saw some Alps to Cherry MX adapters that were 3d printed a while back with varying results. Did that ever amount to much? I have a feeling I'm speaking blasphemy by suggesting it out loud. I'm not sure if Alps users are purists or not. 

[supamesican]

You definitely need to try Alps! However, did you check whether the board is clean? Alps can get really bad when they're dirty...

Everyone needs to try alps, while they are no buckling springs they are so much better than cherry. I'd even say on par with topre.

If nothing else he can try to clean the alps switches if they are dirty.

[klennkellon]

Buckling Springs are some of the snappiest you an get, your fingers kind of feel like they're popping off the keys on the upstroke and it makes it feel like your fingers are dancing around the keyboard/

55g Topre is quite snappy as well, but I have not tried it personally.

[Malenky]

I think what makes the tactility more apparent in Zealios compared to regular MX switches is that the rest of the travel is smooth, so you can feel the bump more, by contrast. In MX switches, the tactility can get a little bit lost when the whole switch travel is a little bit rough. At least that's how it feels to me.

[chyros]

Show Image

It's in rough shape, but it looks relatively clean. I'll be sure to follow what I assume is your cleaning guide on youtube if they feel nasty. I intend on desoldering it and using the switches.

One other thing... what about the keycaps? I saw some Alps to Cherry MX adapters that were 3d printed a while back with varying results. Did that ever amount to much? I have a feeling I'm speaking blasphemy by suggesting it out loud. I'm not sure if Alps users are purists or not.  :-[

Yes, that's my tutorial. It can make switches better if they're dirty but haven't been used much, but keyboards that have been used while dirty get physically damaged in a way we cannot restore at this moment. The boards does look fairly clean, hopefully it will turn out well. Clean orange Alps are possibly my favourite tactile switch, they're almost the dictionary definition of a well-rounded tactile switch.

Alps keycaps are pretty forthcoming. You can even buy new doubleshots from Tai-Hao. That said, the M0116 has a very non-standard layout.

[alienman82]

removed.

[jacobolus]

Neither MX-style switches nor Topre are remotely “snappy” on the downstroke (no “ergo-clears” are not “snappy”).

If you want snappy and quiet, try Matias’s switches.

Or if you are willing to give up on quietness, there are a lot of options for snappy loud switches.

Seriously though, what a time to be alive in keyboarding!

All the best keyswitches and keycaps were made in the 1970s–80s, and a lot of what remains from that era is in poor condition.

On the other hand, resources for electronics hobbyists are great nowadays, and building custom keyboards is easier than ever.

[supamesican]

Seriously though, what a time to be alive in keyboarding!

All the best keyswitches and keycaps were made in the 1970s–80s, and a lot of what remains from that era is in poor condition.

My biggest regret in computing is that I wasnt alive to try those old good boards new. Dont get me wrong my unicomp model m and hhkb are amazing, the best and tied for second best respectively, keyswitches that are made today. But man my model f is in a league of its own, and while I know that there is a modern f project going on and after i buy my house my first fun thing im saving up for is one, i really would have loved to try an nib one on launch day. and then there is beamsprings... at least we got artisan caps i guess

[nateth]

Hey everybody. Thanks so much for the advice. You've been incredibly helpful.

I was looking over what was said and also at some force curves (which I'm guessing you have to take with a grain of salt since they aren't everything).

That being said, it makes sense to me that I'd like the Alps/Matias switches better now.
jacobolus posted a couple of these nifty force graphs that HaaTa had made a while back.


Sourcehttps://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54183.0
That's a downright cliff after hitting I guess what would be the equivalent of the tactile bump.

I can see why Alps/Matias still has a strong niche market in the mechanical world given the tactile curves. Not a cliff, but certainly the Orange and Matias are steeper than anything Cherry has.


Source Alpshttp://www5f.biglobe.ne.jp/~silencium/keyboard/html/alpssw.html
Source Quiet Clickhttps://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54183.0


The MX Clear looks nothing like that. It looks like a gritty franken-Topre, or perhaps an "undead" Topre. Something that I have a feeling some of you feel shouldn't exist. 


Source MX Clearhttp://www.wasdkeyboards.com/mechanical-keyboard-guide#comparison
Source Toprehttp://www.elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se18t0

While I'm sure I'd be appreciative of the buttery goodness of the Topre. I don't think it's what I'm looking for. It sounds like their snappiness is more on the upstroke than anything. What I'm looking for is more of that "point-of-no-return" style drop.

I'd still love to see what the Zealios force curve looks like. Maybe some "Jailhouse" Blues and ErgoClears too…

[mseaworthy]

I could help you out with the missing number keys on your M0116. Happy to give them to you if you will pay for shipping (that is if you're in the US--it would be more if you are elsewhere).

PM me if interested.

[mseaworthy]

Actually, I have a spare big-ass enter / return for the M0116 as well if you need it.

[chyros]

Overly snappy switches might be too much for certain people, don't forget that. If switches cliff to hell, you might bottom out hard which can actually get painful after a while. This is particularly problematic with short-travel switches.

The most snappy switches are mostly clicky, which is kinda impossible in an office, I guess.

P.S. the snappiest switches I've tried so far, without a doubt, are the black-and-red LARB Alps clones. After the tactile bump there is virtually no press-up force, it ALMOST feels like there is no coil spring in the switch at all. So it looks like they went with a very snappy click leaf and a very light coil spring. I'd LOVE to give a board with these a go sometime, the loose switches are extremely promising!

[nateth]

I could help you out with the missing number keys on your M0116. Happy to give them to you if you will pay for shipping (that is if you're in the US--it would be more if you are elsewhere).

PM me if interested.

That's awesome! I live in South Carolina, so I'm more than happy to pay shipping. Full disclosure. If I end up liking these switches enough then I may harvest them and use them to make a Matias 60% keyboard. If you're still fine with that then I'll take you up on the offer.

Overly snappy switches might be too much for certain people, don't forget that. If switches cliff to hell, you might bottom out hard which can actually get painful after a while. This is particularly problematic with short-travel switches.

The most snappy switches are mostly clicky, which is kinda impossible in an office, I guess.

P.S. the snappiest switches I've tried so far, without a doubt, are the black-and-red LARB Alps clones. After the tactile bump there is virtually no press-up force, it ALMOST feels like there is no coil spring in the switch at all. So it looks like they went with a very snappy click leaf and a very light coil spring. I'd LOVE to give a board with these a go sometime, the loose switches are extremely promising!

Those LARB switches sound wild. Although I'll admit, that I do want some feedback. I do like that part of the MX Clears.

[mseaworthy]

I'll send them tomorrow.

[mseaworthy]

Good news. I was able to find replacements for all 7 of your missing caps. Mailing them now.

Also note while your M0116 case look beat up, it will clean very nicely. Those stubborn black marks will come right out with a pencil eraser. And you can redrobright it with some 40% peroxide solution (available at any beauty supply store) mixed 1/2 with water and sprayed on the case for an even coat, and then left in the sun about six hours.

This board was in worse shape than yours looks to be and it turned out nice.

[nateth]

Good news. I was able to find replacements for all 7 of your missing caps. Mailing them now.

Also note while your M0116 case look beat up, it will clean very nicely. Those stubborn black marks will come right out with a pencil eraser. And you can redrobright it with some 40% peroxide solution (available at any beauty supply store) mixed 1/2 with water and sprayed on the case for an even coat, and then left in the sun about six hours.

This board was in worse shape than yours looks to be and it turned out nice.


(Attachment Link)

Thank you so much for the keycaps and all the advice! I'll be sure to get that peroxide solution.
I love the keycaps. Are those custom or did you dye those?

[nateth]

Update: The Apple standard keyboard came in and it feels like trash. The switches feel almost linear, and some of them feel gritty.

Also this little guy has some badges on it that led me to think it was at a community college getting the hell beat out of it in a lab. Also I remember how we treated keyboards back when I worked for IT in college. This thing probably sat in the middle of stack of other keyboards with most of the switches pushed down for a number of years.

I think I'm going to cut my losses and return the thing unless you advise against it. I have some Matias quiet click switches to test out that are coming in to compare it to. I also snagged an Apple IIGS / Apple Desktop Keyboard that's in pristine condition. It's the kind with the SMK tactile switches. Not Monterey blue, but Monterey white? I'm not sure if that's the term for them. I'm not sure how those stack up against orange Alps.

[nateth]

Let me say that I'm not trashing the orange Alps. I just don't think that what I have is representing them at all.

[klennkellon]

The way you're describing it makes them sound like they're dirty. Dirty ALPS feel like trash.

[nateth]

Can they be cleaned well enough though? I'm thinking that they were worn to death through use and abuse.

[chyros]

Can they be cleaned well enough though? I'm thinking that they were worn to death through use and abuse.

If they're dirty, yes you can. I made a video tutorial on how to do it.

If they've been used and abused, and particularly if they've been used while dirty; they'll never be the same again. We currently have no procedure that works well. This is why I always keep stressing that people should only get Alps boards if they're in really good condition, because they don't react well to stuff like this, and most Alps boards are from the late 80s and early 90s so many have been treated very badly for a very long time :/ .