Author Topic: Looking for tactile switch.  (Read 16707 times)

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Offline lightsout714

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Looking for tactile switch.
« on: Sat, 13 April 2019, 17:05:14 »
Back when I was into this scene more people were making ergo clears to get a good tactile bump without the extra weight of clears.

Now I see there are a ton of switches pre made like this.

I am a little overwhelmed by all the options. Seems like Zealios are one of the top choices.

One thing I hate is wobble, I am looking for something like browns but bigger bump and maybe even a hair heavier is ok.


Offline appaboy

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 13 April 2019, 20:57:52 »
Back when I was into this scene more people were making ergo clears to get a good tactile bump without the extra weight of clears.

Now I see there are a ton of switches pre made like this.

I am a little overwhelmed by all the options. Seems like Zealios are one of the top choices.

One thing I hate is wobble, I am looking for something like browns but bigger bump and maybe even a hair heavier is ok.

Zeal v1 are closer to nice bump of ergo clears, v2 have an uncomfortablly huge bump in my opinion. If you could find v1 switches id much recommended those more
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Offline Telstar

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 13 April 2019, 21:27:03 »
One thing I hate is wobble, I am looking for something like browns but bigger bump and maybe even a hair heavier is ok.

Closest tactile to brown is the Hako violet. But just a tiny bit heavier.
Zealios are extremely good but different in feel to browns. 62g is the most similar weight.

PS: I do not have experience with ergo clears, just with the original MX and some recent clones (Kailh, Gateron).

Offline lightsout714

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Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 13 April 2019, 23:30:36 »
I have looked at the box switches. But with so many different types of kaihls there's a lot to Wade through. I am nervous as I heard about some damaging keycaps. Not sure if that has been dealt with.

I am not looking for the feel of browns. Just something that is not a ton heavier. I have tried to like clears twice, while I like the bump they were a bit too heavy.

Interesting that zealio v1 would be recommended.

I ordered a tactile switch tester from Kbdfans. So I'll get to try a few some time next month. I want to build a 60 in the near future. Looking to finally have a board with something other than the boring regular switches.
« Last Edit: Sat, 13 April 2019, 23:32:54 by lightsout714 »

Offline rajendra82

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 10:18:10 »
Based on what you said you want, give box royals a shot. I have tried them in a switch tester, and they are good. Box switches are inherently very low wobble. Novelkeys also claims that new switch stock is keycap damage proof.

« Last Edit: Sun, 14 April 2019, 10:32:32 by rajendra82 »

Offline Telstar

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 15:47:46 »
Yes box royals are very good, but not very light, I would say between zealios v2 67g and 78g.

Offline lightsout714

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 17:02:10 »
Ok thanks for the info. I think that switch is on the tactile tester I ordered.

Offline rajendra82

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 17:20:38 »
Yes box royals are very good, but not very light, I would say between zealios v2 67g and 78g.

Box Royals bottom out at 60g, which fit the bill of a hair heavier than MX Browns which bottom out at about 50g. The Royal tactile bump at the very top feels heavy, but once you push past it, the switch just drops off. The Box Browns I have are also similar in feel, but the top bump is smaller, so the linear part of the curve plays more of a part in the overall feel. When I tried the Zealios v2 67g, I felt as if they were somewhat cushioned past the activation point, with the spring pushing back as I neared the bottom. I didn't think the Box Royals were any heavier overall.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 April 2019, 17:29:43 by rajendra82 »

Offline lightsout714

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 17:46:38 »
Its crazy how many different switches there are out there these days. I am just going to try a few and pick something. I think I would probably like Zealios but man the price is not cheap. Hoping to find something that I like for less.

Offline Telstar

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 18:44:11 »
Yes box royals are very good, but not very light, I would say between zealios v2 67g and 78g.

Box Royals bottom out at 60g, which fit the bill of a hair heavier than MX Browns which bottom out at about 50g. The Royal tactile bump at the very top feels heavy, but once you push past it, the switch just drops off.

Not really, the box royals are way heavier than browns (not considering box browns, just regular from cherry and gateron).

Quote
When I tried the Zealios v2 67g, I felt as if they were somewhat cushioned past the activation point, with the spring pushing back as I neared the bottom. I didn't think the Box Royals were any heavier overall.

I currently have a box royal and a Zealio v2 67g switches on the testing board and I push them several time a day (Lol). They are in the same category of weight. I removed the 78g because was too heavy for my taste, and yet was similar to the box royal. I think the royals are a little heavier than z68, probably because they lack the pushback at the bottom. That's why I said they were in between zealio 67 and 78g.

I did the mistake to look at specs alone and I had some surprises (like requiring to try the lighter zealios). Nothing is better than first hand testing.

Offline rajendra82

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 21:52:20 »
Not trying belabor the point, but it depends on how you define what makes a switch heavy. Take a look at the two force curves below:

217273-0

217275-1

If you want to define heavy as the peak force that you must apply at any point, then the Box Royals are definitely heavier than Cherry MX Browns as there is a peak at the beginning on the force curve that is much higher than any point on the Cherry MX Brown curve. This is how heavy would be defined if you are thinking in terms of absolute strength needed, like in weightlifting if you keep adding weight on a bar until you can't lift the bar any more. Then the bar is too heavy.

I would contend that this is the wrong way to look at keyboard switch heaviness, because no functional switch ever made would be too heavy to push down, and you are never only pressing one key down and that's it (unless you are pressing the doomsday switch). Instead we should be looking at the total energy needed during each press. When you look at that value, you will see that the Box Royal energy over a single press is almost the same as the Cherry MX Brown (164 gfmm vs 166 gfmm). The energy needed to reach the actuation point is also similar (69 gfmm vs 73 gfmm), which matters if you aren't bottoming out each press. Think of this kind of heavy like pedaling an exercise bike. It's the work you have to do to make the pedal go one revolution that adds up over time tiring you out. I say that typing is a more similar activity to pedaling a bike, so the total energy during each press is what matters more. As a result, I would consider the Box Royals to be no more tiring to use than Cherry MX Browns.

I don't have a force curve for Zealios 67g switches, but based on how they feel, I think the shape of the curve is likely more similar to MX Browns, with a rounded tactile bump (albeit of a larger magnitude than MX Brown) over a large distance, and an even heavier pushback at the bottom. As a result, the Zealios 67g switches should actually feel heavier over time compared to the Box Royals although you are actually applying more force on the Box Royals than you ever are on the Zealios 67 g switches. 
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 April 2019, 00:19:01 by rajendra82 »

Offline lightsout714

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 22:35:37 »
Science!!! Thanks for all the info man. Definitely need to do some hands on for all the data out there to make sense.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 23:00:44 »
I'm a big fan of lubed kailh brown (non-box) switches.  People think I'm crazy, but they feel quite nice.  Small but defined bump and medium spring weight.  Lube makes all the difference too.  3204 all over the stem makes them sound very nice.

Offline lightsout714

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 14 April 2019, 23:15:34 »
I'm a big fan of lubed kailh brown (non-box) switches.  People think I'm crazy, but they feel quite nice.  Small but defined bump and medium spring weight.  Lube makes all the difference too.  3204 all over the stem makes them sound very nice.
I've never used a lubed switch. I have recently acquired some gateron browns and like them. Without doing a side by side I don't notice any difference from cherry browns.


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Offline Telstar

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 15 April 2019, 08:20:50 »
I'm a big fan of lubed kailh brown (non-box) switches.  People think I'm crazy, but they feel quite nice.  Small but defined bump and medium spring weight.  Lube makes all the difference too.  3204 all over the stem makes them sound very nice.

I think you would love hako violets :)
« Last Edit: Mon, 15 April 2019, 08:31:22 by Telstar »

Offline Telstar

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 15 April 2019, 08:30:54 »
If you want to define heavy as the peak force that you must apply at any point, then the Box Royals are definitely heavier than Cherry MX Browns (…)

Yeah, so I define it, and my fingers tend to agree. Only when the peak force is the same, then the curve comes into play and there are many differences in the current tactile switches, to please many people. For instance I like Halo and hate Hako (except violets which have a different force curve).

Quote
I don't have a force curve for Zealios 67g switches, but based on how they feel, I think the shape of the curve is likely more similar to MX Browns, with a rounded tactile bump (albeit of a larger magnitude than MX Brown) over a large distance, and an even heavier pushback at the bottom. As a result, the Zealios 67g switches should actually feel heavier over time compared to the Box Royals although you are actually applying more force on the Box Royals than you ever are on the Zealios 67 g switches.

I'd like to see those curves as well. Without them, we can just elaborate on our sensations. Based on how I feel, no, zealio v2 67g isn't heavier than box royal at all. But in the long time, I could prefer the 62g. For this reason, I haven't ordered a set to fill my GMMK with.
Zealios v2 does not seem to have a curve that mimic mx browns IME, it's something else entirely. I rather see similarity in the halo curves, which you can find on the same site.
Do you have first hand experience with Halo clear/true switches?

Offline rajendra82

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 15 April 2019, 19:49:57 »
I don't have any first hand experience with Halo switches.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on how to define the criteria for what makes a switch feel heavy. If it is just the peak force, a Cherry MX Blue should feel nearly as heavy as a Cherry MX Black, but it doesn't to me.

217380-0

217382-1




Offline Telstar

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 15 April 2019, 20:00:58 »
And I dont have recent experience with blacks ;) but I have to agree with you that the blue feels lighter than that curve would suggest, if I just consider peak force something's wrong.
Probably other parameters such as actuation energy and total energy reported in the graphs are better metrics.

Offline rajendra82

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 20 April 2019, 14:25:54 »
Just discovered this article by HaaTa. Very good read:

https://input.club/the-problem-with-mechanical-switch-reviews/

and this comparative guide, sadly outdated, but with some good guidelines:

https://input.club/the-comparative-guide-to-mechanical-switches/

They apparently consider the actuation force to be the deciding factor with the following way to categorize switches:

Quote
Switch categorization

For our testing we have categorized the switches into three types:

Tactile: Defined as any switch that has a tactile point with no audible feedback.
Tactile + Clicky: Defined as any switch that has a tactile point and an audible feedback.
Linear: Defined as any switch that has no tactile point and no audible feedback.

We also categorized the switches by actuation force:

Light: 0 – 80gfmm
Medium: 80-115gfmm
Heavy: 115gfmm+
« Last Edit: Sat, 20 April 2019, 14:46:49 by rajendra82 »

Offline lightsout714

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #20 on: Sat, 20 April 2019, 14:27:59 »
I ended up trying out the T1 from KBDfans. If I don't like them I can always switch them out down the road.

Offline lightsout714

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 29 April 2019, 19:40:50 »
Keyboard came in with T1's, also got a tactile switch tester from KBDfans. Seems like the switch tester is a little helpful but things feel a lot different on a keyboard.

Loving the T1's though, nice and crisp. Much better than the browns I have been stuck with the last couple years.


Offline MarbleKeeb

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 10:58:34 »
I went from Cherry Brown to Hako Violet, it was a bit improvement.

I also have been looking recently for the next improvement, I was really tempted by Hako Royal, Zelios 67g or Hako Royal Clear.
But I recently jumped on the T1 and they feel great, really close to the Hako Royal Clear.

Still, I need to finish to assemble my new board with the T1.

Offline lightsout714

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 30 April 2019, 12:33:01 »
I went from Cherry Brown to Hako Violet, it was a bit improvement.

I also have been looking recently for the next improvement, I was really tempted by Hako Royal, Zelios 67g or Hako Royal Clear.
But I recently jumped on the T1 and they feel great, really close to the Hako Royal Clear.

Still, I need to finish to assemble my new board with the T1.


I also like all those three switches you were considering. At least on the switch tester. The Hako clear I agree is very similar to the T1.

I really like the T1 though. I have nothing bad to say. I don't have a ton to compare to, but they have made me want to change the switches in my Tada. I love typing on them, I find myself looking for stuff to type just to use them.

EDIT## I was wrong I was comparing the Hako clear, not the Hako royal clear.
« Last Edit: Tue, 30 April 2019, 12:37:31 by lightsout714 »

Offline MarbleKeeb

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 12 May 2019, 13:26:25 »
I went from Cherry Brown to Hako Violet, it was a bit improvement.

I also have been looking recently for the next improvement, I was really tempted by Hako Royal, Zelios 67g or Hako Royal Clear.
But I recently jumped on the T1 and they feel great, really close to the Hako Royal Clear.

Still, I need to finish to assemble my new board with the T1.


I also like all those three switches you were considering. At least on the switch tester. The Hako clear I agree is very similar to the T1.

I really like the T1 though. I have nothing bad to say. I don't have a ton to compare to, but they have made me want to change the switches in my Tada. I love typing on them, I find myself looking for stuff to type just to use them.

EDIT## I was wrong I was comparing the Hako clear, not the Hako royal clear.

I finished to assemble the board, the T1 are really tactile ! Maybe a bit too much with the SA keycaps.. I have to try more.
But sadly T1 are now discontinued :/
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 May 2019, 13:29:26 by MarbleKeeb »

Offline lightsout714

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Re: Looking for tactile switch.
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 12 May 2019, 21:39:50 »
I went from Cherry Brown to Hako Violet, it was a bit improvement.

I also have been looking recently for the next improvement, I was really tempted by Hako Royal, Zelios 67g or Hako Royal Clear.
But I recently jumped on the T1 and they feel great, really close to the Hako Royal Clear.

Still, I need to finish to assemble my new board with the T1.


I also like all those three switches you were considering. At least on the switch tester. The Hako clear I agree is very similar to the T1.

I really like the T1 though. I have nothing bad to say. I don't have a ton to compare to, but they have made me want to change the switches in my Tada. I love typing on them, I find myself looking for stuff to type just to use them.

EDIT## I was wrong I was comparing the Hako clear, not the Hako royal clear.

I finished to assemble the board, the T1 are really tactile ! Maybe a bit too much with the SA keycaps.. I have to try more.
But sadly T1 are now discontinued :/


I know, its too bad!