Author Topic: First tactile keyboard  (Read 4737 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tokrum

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
First tactile keyboard
« on: Thu, 16 May 2019, 14:10:51 »
Hello,

I used to research on mechanical keyboards some years ago. I recall Filco, Cherry, Topre, ALPS, HHKB being what most talked about. I almost bought tenkeyless Filco with Cherry brown switches, but decided not to.

Now after several years I'm back to looking for one. I started by ordering a Cherry switch tester which I just got, and also Kailh tester which is still on the way. The market seems to have blown up with cheaper copies.

I've read that the switch tester can be misleading, just pressing one key instead of having whole keyboard.

Just basing on the tester, I really seem to like the clear. I also like brown and blue. Will the whole keyboard of clears feel too heavy to press? I understand the point is, in most cases, to release they key much before it bottoms out. Not sure how that works in practice.

What other choices there would be? Blues are distractedly clacky, but the force needed to press feels fine. I think I'll have problems with FPS games. Browns on the other hand feel a bit too light and tactile feedback isn't very noticeable. I still feel like brown is a safe choice.

Offline TeacherGeek

  • Posts: 135
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 16 May 2019, 14:20:19 »
You can get a cheap-ish hotswappable keyboard and then use that as a tester. GK707 on aliexpress can be as cheap as $40.

Offline equalunique

  • Posts: 539
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 16 May 2019, 14:28:27 »
Reduced-price Cherry MX Brown and Cherry MX Clear versions of the WASD CODE are available at wasdkeyboards.com - that was the first Cherry MX Clear keyboard I ever had, and it served me well for 2 years.

Offline Lyd

  • Posts: 19
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 16 May 2019, 22:00:10 »
I would always recommend someone pic up a GMMK if they're looking to try new things constantly and don't want to be switching boards.  Its 60$ I believe for a fullsize board, but you'll have to source the keys yourself.  You can either pick up your favorite cherry switches, or even buy some of those boutique tactiles in your case.  If you want to try something new in the future, buying just the switches will probably cost less than rebuying the whole board.

Offline ArchDill

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 1388
  • Location: OK
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 16 May 2019, 22:22:48 »
I have two hot-swap boards now and I love them. I have been around for close to four years but never learned to solder. I always would pay to have my boards built and make sure I could open the tops.

The best board for messing with switches for me is my Tokyo60. It is hot-swap AND switch top compatible.

Offline Gepriester

  • Posts: 41
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 17 May 2019, 01:08:34 »
If you want to keep the price down and the quality high, you might consider buying a Filco, Leopold, etc. second hand e.g. from ebay. If you search a little bit you can get really good deals on those.
You are right about switch testers/single switches differing from the feel and sound of real keyboards. Although this gives you slight direction of what you might like.
I'll say if you liked clear and browns, then stick with browns for the beginning. They're a good allrounder.

Offline Tokrum

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 18 May 2019, 12:55:37 »
Thanks,

I need ISO Nordic layout. I searched and there are not as many options for those.

Couple with MX Clear that are available are Vortex Race 3 and Varmilo VA88M.

WASD Keyboard costs bit more to import

Leopold FC980M if I settle for MX Browns.

Which of those would be good choice?
« Last Edit: Sat, 18 May 2019, 15:07:41 by Tokrum »

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1415
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 19 May 2019, 14:08:26 »
Okay, a few things here.

First, yes the Browns are a relatively 'safe' choice, but are not necessarily the best overall switch. Sure, they aren't as noisy as the Blues. Or as heavy as the Clears. So they shouldn't pose any insurmountable problems.

But, as you say, they aren't very tactile, and they are fairly light. So it may not be your preferred switch, not your 'ultimate' switch.

From Browns, it's easy to transition to other MX switches of similar weight.

Browns are basically MX Reds that have a slight tactile component. So if you get used to Browns, Reds aren't too much of a leap. And Browns are a little similar to the tactility you find in some membrane keyboards, so it's not a huge adjustment coming from those kind of boards. One of the reasons they're recommended as a 'beginner' switch.

Second, you asked about MX Clears. They are indeed a relatively weighty and highly-tactile switch. Lots of pros favour them, but I see even these enthusiasts complain about fatigue after as little as one hour.

So it's a great-feeling switch for some people, but it is relatively heavy. [There are lighter versions and clones of this switch, but they're in the enthusiast market].

If you can handle it, though, you could go straight to the Clears. They are an 'endgame' switch for plenty of users.

Third, as you said, the switch tester can be misleading. What one switch feels like is not like what an entire keyboard will feel like.

For example, with the Browns you mention, they feel pretty underwhelming as individual switches. But Cherry did not manufacture them to be used as individual switches. On a keyboard, the Browns give you just enough tactility to know that you actuated a switch, but without distracting you so much that you can't rapidly move on to the next switch. You don't type one-switch-at-a-time with MX Browns, you type one word at a time.

Browns are supposed to be an unassuming, easy-typing switch that does not have a lot of personality.

Fourth, if you are going to play around with advanced, expensive switches, it makes sense to get a cheap switch-testing board. Someone recommended the GMMK, which will work. Although, if you aren't in the U.S. and can order cheaply from China, I would get a TeamWolf Zhuque from AliExpress. It's metal-cased instead of plastic, although the RGB is inferior to the GMMK.

But you need ISO, so go with GMMK. I think they make models with ISO.

Finally, if you have a general sense of the switches from your switch sampler and plan to order one of those four keyboards, they are mostly good choices.

A family member has a Varmilo VA87, and it is amazing. Simply amazing. But it's using the new MX Browns, and not MX Clear. You'd better be sure you like MX Clear before shelling out for the VA88M. Great keyboard, heavy switch.

I don't know much about the Vortex Race 3. People speak highly of theirs, but it's a non-standard layout, which will make aftermarket keycap purchases more difficult.

The WASD keyboard is nothing special, I think it's a rebranded Costar of some sort. I certainly wouldn't pay extra for it.

The FC980M is a spectacular keyboard, and Leopold's been using good Browns recently.

It really comes down to the layout and switch. What do you want?

Advantage of the Varmilo VA88 is that it is a relatively standard layout [even though these are all ISO], so there's still lots of keycap sets you can order for it, even some of the cheap ones.

Advantage of the FC980M is the build quality [maybe the best out of your options], and even the non-standard layout is highly celebrated by its fan base.

Have you tried any of these non-standard layouts? Because that is key.



TL;DR:

1. Browns are safe for new people. Maybe not the be-all and end-all of all switches, but they are comfortably mediocre.

2. Clears are powerful tactile switches, but can be tiring even to experienced users.

3. Using switches on an actual keyboard is the only real way to get a feel for them.

4. It is very useful to get a cheap switch-testing board if you are going to be trialing a lot of different switches. Especially before an expensive purchase.

5. All four of your choices are from reputable brands. Leopold in particular is well-regarded, and I enjoy Varmilo very much. It comes down to your switch and layout preference.

Offline Tokrum

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 22 May 2019, 05:23:11 »
Thanks for the throughout reply.

I went for the FC980M with MX browns. Figured if the browns are not satisfactory, I'll get a soldering iron and change them for something else.

I received the Kailh tester as well. None of the tactile switches felt interesting, expect maybe box purple(?) which is too much tactility and probably bottoms out almost everytime.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 May 2019, 05:32:16 by Tokrum »

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1415
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 25 May 2019, 20:03:03 »
I helped a European with a similar purchase, and he ended up with an FC980M in MX Black [his preferred switch-type], and he was very happy with it.

Hopefully it serves you as well as it has others.

I'd be curious to know what you meant by the box purple. Did you mean Pro Purple, or are you thinking of a Box clicky like Box Jade?

Or maybe Hako Violet? I'm about to test some next month.

Offline macguy80

  • Posts: 344
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Sun, 26 May 2019, 02:17:31 »
I personally found that I got fatigued way too quickly with MX clears, no matter how much I wanted to love them, I am interested, however, in getting a board with Zealios, which are supposedly more tactile yet not as heavy as MX clears.

Offline SBJ

  • Posts: 1191
  • Location: Denmark / The city.
  • Tactile pls
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 26 May 2019, 04:29:13 »
I personally found that I got fatigued way too quickly with MX clears, no matter how much I wanted to love them, I am interested, however, in getting a board with Zealios, which are supposedly more tactile yet not as heavy as MX clears.
Currently using a board with Zealios, and can only recommend them.
GREAT switch imo, I love the tactility, and they're so light I NEVER get fatigued.

Offline Tokrum

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 26 May 2019, 09:46:47 »
I meant box royal by box purple. That and I realized also box brown feels good. Many of the clicky Kailhs also feel good, but I wasn't looking for a clicky one.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1415
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 26 May 2019, 09:56:14 »
I personally found that I got fatigued way too quickly with MX clears, no matter how much I wanted to love them, I am interested, however, in getting a board with Zealios, which are supposedly more tactile yet not as heavy as MX clears.
Currently using a board with Zealios, and can only recommend them.
GREAT switch imo, I love the tactility, and they're so light I NEVER get fatigued.

The original Zealios (V1) were kind of based on tactile design of MX Clears, but were offered in lighter weights.

The new Zealios (V2) are heavily influenced by Holy Pandas, and most of the tactile bump for actuation is right at the top of the switch- with no pre-travel. It's a divisive switch - some love it, and some prefer the more traditional V1 Zealios.


I meant box royal by box purple. That and I realized also box brown feels good. Many of the clicky Kailhs also feel good, but I wasn't looking for a clicky one.

Box Royals are an interesting switch. I think I've seen them referred to as "TOO tactile." Certainly, it's part of the new trend for massive tactility.

BOX Brown also has a following. I received some BOX Browns recently and am looking forward to testing them. Hope they don't destroy the cheap ABS keycaps I am going to test them with. [the old BOX switches stretched the stems of keycaps and broke a number of ABS designs. But since the retooling, they are allegedly safe. We'll see.]

Offline macguy80

  • Posts: 344
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 28 May 2019, 00:57:41 »
The original Zealios (V1) were kind of based on tactile design of MX Clears, but were offered in lighter weights.

The new Zealios (V2) are heavily influenced by Holy Pandas, and most of the tactile bump for actuation is right at the top of the switch- with no pre-travel. It's a divisive switch - some love it, and some prefer the more traditional V1 Zealios.

What a shame. Now I'll have to get a whole new switch tester to find out if I'm still even remotely interested. They should have introduced V2 as a new switch and continued producing V1 for those who prefer them. I think I'm probably in the latter camp. I have zero experience with Holy Pandas. I will be extremely disappointed if my chance at the perfect V1 board is gone. Even the WASD Code has moved to V2.

Offline Tokrum

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 29 May 2019, 05:51:19 »
I just went to post office and got my FC980M with MX browns!

Amazing layout, about perfect width for me, any wider would be bad, but don't need it to be narrower either. Numpad is nice to have. The graduated(?) profile feels nicer than the flat kind I had before. I had a cheap 75-80% membrane board. I think the separated arrow and function keys, and bigger backspace and enter, makes less mistakes compared to the old one.

The thing weights a lot, not a portable one for sure.

Then the switches. I instantly realize, I bottom out a lot, almost all the time. I thought I will just press lightly and release before bottoming out. Maybe with practice.

Even the browns make a lot of noise, I would have disliked blues for sure. Browns have just enough tactility it seems and it takes comfortable amount force to press. Maybe clears would have been fatiguing, not sure.
« Last Edit: Wed, 29 May 2019, 13:30:05 by Tokrum »

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1415
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 29 May 2019, 21:47:31 »
The original Zealios (V1) were kind of based on tactile design of MX Clears, but were offered in lighter weights.

The new Zealios (V2) are heavily influenced by Holy Pandas, and most of the tactile bump for actuation is right at the top of the switch- with no pre-travel. It's a divisive switch - some love it, and some prefer the more traditional V1 Zealios.

What a shame. Now I'll have to get a whole new switch tester to find out if I'm still even remotely interested. They should have introduced V2 as a new switch and continued producing V1 for those who prefer them. I think I'm probably in the latter camp. I have zero experience with Holy Pandas. I will be extremely disappointed if my chance at the perfect V1 board is gone. Even the WASD Code has moved to V2.

I also think that they should have continued producing the V1. The demand is clearly there, as shown by the Stealios crisis.

V1 is fine for those who prefer evolutions from classic MX switch designs [in this case the clears/ergo clears, some weighted like Browns.]

The V2 is much more radical, following the Holy Pandas. Both have been described as 'feeling less like the MX family, and perhaps more like Topre or ALPS.' They don't actually feel like Topre or ALPS, but have more in common with non-MX switches than the V1s did.

Your last chance to simply acquire a keyboard with V1-style switches would have been a couple of months ago from KBDFans. I saw one guy receive his board about a month ago, a beautiful low-profile silver aluminum TADA68 with 65 gr Stealios with white illumination and GMK Honeywell. I had been toying with the concept, but now won't be able to get that. I need the KBD8x mkii anyway, and the next GB will probably be available with real V2 Zealios.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1415
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 29 May 2019, 21:53:31 »
I just went to post office and got my FC980M with MX browns!



Glad you like it. Those who like the FC980 layout tend to like it a lot.

Browns aren't in-your-face with tactility, they just want you to type without noticing them much.

You can get used to typing using less effort, it will come with time. Just kind of glide over the keyboard.

Maybe try out some boards with Clears at a meetup. [Or just make your own from a cheap hotswap board and some Clears.] It would probably take an hour of straight usage or more to really determine if they'd be tiring or not.

Offline Tokrum

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 6
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 10:40:21 »
Nearing one year with the FC980M. I haven't really thoroughly researched what all else there could be, but I am still very happy with this keyboard. Only thing wrong is that it has collected a lot of crap inside of it.

Numpad has been very useful for me. I like certain keys are separated from each other, the layout is great.

Cherry browns have been good as well. I might have use for slightly more pronounced tactile feedback, but not necessary at all. Build quality is excellent.

It's just a good keyboard, nothing too fancy.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1415
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 14:19:45 »
Nearing one year with the FC980M. I haven't really thoroughly researched what all else there could be, but I am still very happy with this keyboard. Only thing wrong is that it has collected a lot of crap inside of it.

Numpad has been very useful for me. I like certain keys are separated from each other, the layout is great.

Cherry browns have been good as well. I might have use for slightly more pronounced tactile feedback, but not necessary at all. Build quality is excellent.

It's just a good keyboard, nothing too fancy.

Thanks for the update! It's good to hear 1-year-later updates, because most people don't post further impressions of their boards after that much time has elapsed.

Leopolds are built like tanks, so it's no surprise that yours is still running like a champ.

When I had my full-size Leopold modified with lubed Ergo Clears, with stabilizers lubed and some minor case tweaking, the sound profile improved dramatically. Deeper, thockier, and less reverb / ping. It took care of the flaws in the board.

I wouldn't do that, though, unless there's a need, as the surgery carries risks with it. You might want to look up the cleaning guides for MX keyboards, though.

[Tip: If you are using alcohol of any sort when cleaning the board, be sure to dilute it heavily. Or it will damage the case. Also, don't use compressed air, because it will blow more dirt into the switches. Get rid of the dirt by carefully removing keycaps and dumping the board upside-down outside. Then, use q-tips and rubbing alcohol solution to remove more persistent dirt. Regular maintenance is a natural part of owning a mechanical keyboard.

Also, use extreme caution when removing the stabilized keycaps on a Leopold. They use shorter stabilizer inserts, which can be accidentally pulled out more easily than with Cherry-brand stabilizers.]

The original Zealios (V1) were kind of based on tactile design of MX Clears, but were offered in lighter weights.

The new Zealios (V2) are heavily influenced by Holy Pandas, and most of the tactile bump for actuation is right at the top of the switch- with no pre-travel. It's a divisive switch - some love it, and some prefer the more traditional V1 Zealios.

What a shame. Now I'll have to get a whole new switch tester to find out if I'm still even remotely interested. They should have introduced V2 as a new switch and continued producing V1 for those who prefer them. I think I'm probably in the latter camp. I have zero experience with Holy Pandas. I will be extremely disappointed if my chance at the perfect V1 board is gone. Even the WASD Code has moved to V2.

Both you and Tokrum should seriously look into Ergo Clears. Yes, it's a pain as you have to get MX Clears and then lube + spring-swap them. But you can have MX Clears in varying weights, from MX Brown-ish at 63.5 to Blue-ish at 65 and Tangerine V2-ish at 67.

I have a board with Ergo Clears [a Leopold FC900R PD] that are on the heavy side [they actuate at 60 gr]. It is really crunchy and satisfying, and I type about 3 WPM faster than with MX Browns. They are more tactile than Browns, but you can tweak it how you like.

Anyway, I just mention that because even though Zealios V1 are no longer available, you can still make the Ergo Clears that they are based on.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 2164
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 15:50:21 »
Both you and Tokrum should seriously look into Ergo Clears. Yes, it's a pain as you have to get MX Clears and then lube + spring-swap them. But you can have MX Clears in varying weights, from MX Brown-ish at 63.5 to Blue-ish at 65 and Tangerine V2-ish at 67.

I have a board with Ergo Clears [a Leopold FC900R PD] that are on the heavy side [they actuate at 60 gr]. It is really crunchy and satisfying, and I type about 3 WPM faster than with MX Browns. They are more tactile than Browns, but you can tweak it how you like.

Anyway, I just mention that because even though Zealios V1 are no longer available, you can still make the Ergo Clears that they are based on.

Have you tried Kailh's box browns? They're smoother than MX browns, and more tactile. I would have to feel both again, but probably comparable to MX clears. That could mean a pretty close analogue to ergo clears without any modding, maybe? I'm not a tactile person, so I could be way off.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1415
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 20:20:37 »
Funny, I was just trying BOX Browns again today.

They're similar in concept to MX Browns, but executed differently. The tactile bump is basically right at the top, like Zealios V2.

But it's not as sharp or large as Zealio tactility, although larger than MX Brown. It feels kind of like typing on cobblestones.

MX Clears are definitely distinct from BOX Browns. Clears have the tactile bump in the middle, like Browns, i.e. classic Cherry format. Clears seem to give a larger bump with a greater web of tactility. BOX Browns are more of a 'thump,' like stepping off a curb onto the road.

I'd say that they are both 'medium' tactiles, with Clears on the higher end.

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1415
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 21:28:36 »
I decided to test BOX Browns vs. Ergo Clears just now.

BOX Browns really are a departure from the standard Cherry model. You can feel the BOX design when you depress the switch: these aren't MX.

Like I said, they have a 'cobblestones' feel. That means very crisp, falling from one solid state onto a different solid state with just a jump as intermediary. The tactility isn't complex, just flat resistance, then a fall.

Ergo Clears, though, are like more complex Browns. Same general curve as Browns, but a richer and more complex tactility.


BOX Browns are crisp and definite, but they aren't the best for gaming. It is harder to instinctively press the BOX Browns as compared with Cherry. They are more deliberate. They aren't 'smoother' than MX Browns in the sense of lubed switches or fancy plastics. They just don't have the scratchiness that we're accustomed to from Cherry molds. More of a "solid" feel.

Ergo Clears are much faster than BOX Browns. They may require more actuation force, but the tactility ramps up quickly, and gives you good feedback. With practice, you can type very quickly and instinctively on these switches.


So I would say that BOX Browns and Ergo Clears are very different from one another, by Cherry standards. They go into the same PCBs, but are very distinct and recognizable from one another. They're both smoother and more tactile than MX Browns, but in different ways.

Offline Maledicted

  • Posts: 2164
  • Location: Wisconsin, United States
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 21:53:26 »
Funny, I was just trying BOX Browns again today.

They're similar in concept to MX Browns, but executed differently. The tactile bump is basically right at the top, like Zealios V2.

But it's not as sharp or large as Zealio tactility, although larger than MX Brown. It feels kind of like typing on cobblestones.

MX Clears are definitely distinct from BOX Browns. Clears have the tactile bump in the middle, like Browns, i.e. classic Cherry format. Clears seem to give a larger bump with a greater web of tactility. BOX Browns are more of a 'thump,' like stepping off a curb onto the road.

I'd say that they are both 'medium' tactiles, with Clears on the higher end.

Yeah, now that I compare MX clears, box browns, and box royals together again, you're right on all counts. It is close though. This is probably old news, but it seems to me the sliders of box browns and royals are the same, I tried swapping the sliders. so the difference in tactility between the two must be the spring that tensions the shelf thing that the slider rubs against for the tactile event. I imagine you could bend the leaf spring inside to adjust tactility. Either way, some modding would be necessary, and it wouldn't be the same feel either way.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 May 2020, 22:26:15 by Maledicted »

Offline HungerMechanic

  • Posts: 1415
Re: First tactile keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 08 May 2020, 22:05:07 »
Yes, BOX Browns are just a variant of other BOX designs. They are part of the same family, so there is a similar feel among them. Although hardly identical, as you point out, as they use variations among parts.
« Last Edit: Fri, 08 May 2020, 22:09:38 by HungerMechanic »