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Offline ioantudor

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7
building own keyboard
« on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 14:12:22 »
Hi,

has anybody here ever tried to build his own keyboard from scratch?
I would like to try that, but I can't find anything on google or in this forum, I can't figure out why! Is this to much work?

I plan to create a keyboard with almost the same layout like the M4-1 but with Cherry brown keys.
I want to get a controller out of a cheap rubber dome keyboard, the caps from a cherry keyboard. But at the moment I don't know where to get the cherry keys from. Although I'm from Germany I can't find anything on ebay, google or some online stores for eletronic components.
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Offline didjamatic

  • Posts: 1352
building own keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 14:36:44 »
oooh!  I've seen pics of that board, but never video.  Nice!
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IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline ricercar

  • * Elevated Elder
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  • Location: Silicon Valley
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building own keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 14:39:07 »
Quote from: ioantudor;186801
has anybody here ever tried to build his own keyboard from scratch?


How scratch is scratch?

Scientist: I can create life!
God: Prove it.
[Scientist bends down to collect some dirt]
God: No, no. Start from scratch like I did.
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I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline wellington1869

  • Posts: 2885
building own keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 15:12:06 »
Quote from: ricercar;186817
How scratch is scratch?

Scientist: I can create life!
God: Prove it.
[Scientist bends down to collect some dirt]
God: No, no. Start from scratch like I did.


unless mankind imagined god from scratch...

did the keyboard create the manufacturing plant?! Ack, another existential crisis!
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"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline noctua

  • Posts: 188
building own keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 15:43:12 »
Quote from: ioantudor;186801
... But at the moment I don't know where to get the cherry keys from. Although I'm from Germany I can't find anything on ebay, google or some online stores for eletronic components.

buy a G80-3000 model of your choice.. as suitable donor! (economy hint)
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 May 2010, 15:45:31 by noctua »
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Selfmade Keyboard I (done)
DT225 CH Trackball

Selfmade Keyboard II (95% completed)
L-Trac CST2545W-RC Trackball

both use Cherry MX Blue switches, an Teensy++ controller and have an Colemak layout

Offline ioantudor

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7
building own keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 15:58:40 »
Quote from: ricercar;186817
How scratch is scratch?

Scientist: I can create life!
God: Prove it.
[Scientist bends down to collect some dirt]
God: No, no. Start from scratch like I did.


I mean own choice of switches, layout and controller!
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Offline ioantudor

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7
building own keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 16:04:58 »
Quote from: noctua;186844
buy a G80-3000 model of your choice.. as suitable donor! (economy hint)


yes that was also one of my idea. Question is, how easy it is to move the cursor keys a little bit to the left :rolleyes: If this is possible, it would be a good idea to start with and already have all alphanumeric keys soldered on the board. If not and I'll have to unsolder all switches from the board..

What I don't like on the G80 is the big controller which takes so much space!
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Offline Mental Hobbit

  • Posts: 461
building own keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 16:12:10 »
Cursor keys a little bit to the left? That would be the G80-1800.
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Typing on blues.

Offline lmnop

  • Posts: 574
building own keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 17:40:14 »
I had an idea recently to disconnect the USB controller in my Das Ultimate and create a small profile face plate and casing, Filco like out of polycarbonate mirror.



Quote
POLYCARBONATE MIRROR

    * Variety of grades available including:
          o See-thru (two-way)
          o Two-sided
          o Scratch-resistant coated
    * Colors available
          o Bronze
          o Gray

unlike Acrylic it can be cut by dremel, rotary, laser and drill without cracking.
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Offline elbowglue

  • Posts: 583
building own keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 17:44:08 »
Consider the Compaq 84u

(Take the MX 11800, cut of the right side of it, solder 3 wires)
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My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position
KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline talis

  • Posts: 195
building own keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 17:48:19 »
Quote from: ioantudor;186801
Hi,
But at the moment I don't know where to get the cherry keys from. Although I'm from Germany I can't find anything on ebay, google or some online stores for eletronic components.


http://www.digikey.de/
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Offline Pixel_Outlaw

  • Posts: 115
building own keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 19:35:46 »
I'm no expret in the field but it might be easiest to use some sort of computer chip like an Arduino coupled with some non traditional switches. I've always wanted to see something does with those large arcade style buttons. Also you don't have to stick to QWERTY you can make a unique design that uses combinations to lesson the amount of soldering. You could get really sick and use toggle switches to mimic something from the Altair 8800 era. You can throw form and ergonomics out the window if it makes you happy to have something terribly 70's industrial looking. If need be you can make a wooden case or even use some hobby box and chrome metal. Just my 2 cents.
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Brown and black are the colors of cowardice. May my springs shake the heavens!

Offline Pixel_Outlaw

  • Posts: 115
building own keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 20:11:20 »
My kneejerk reaction would be to use chrome toggle switches as bit entry. This would give you 256 characters. Actually, this would give you many more characters than traditional keyboards (excluding work around special character entry). You could of course also do backspace, return, and any other character supported in ASCII set. Basically to use you move 8 switches representing a binary numner using a lookup chart, then hit the enter button to let the chip know what to send down the cord. If you make a mistake you toggle the switches to the backspace binary number and hit enter. Painful but very unique!



Again I can only approach this from the software level of computer understanding. Here you can see the ASCII binary values for each number, Looks like they only use 7 bits. Oh well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 May 2010, 20:28:25 by Pixel_Outlaw »
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Brown and black are the colors of cowardice. May my springs shake the heavens!

Offline Pixel_Outlaw

  • Posts: 115
building own keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 21:13:48 »
I just got another idea for an easier keyboard, you could use two potentiometers or dials and read their rotations, each range is a Hexadecimal digit. Little AutoCAD drawing I whipped up. Sorry I like old looking electronics. This again gives you 256 digit values. You simply enter a hexadecimal number using two dials 00 through FF (255).

Here it is ready to print the character "N".
« Last Edit: Tue, 25 May 2010, 21:28:42 by Pixel_Outlaw »
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Brown and black are the colors of cowardice. May my springs shake the heavens!

Offline Infinite north

  • Posts: 162
building own keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 25 May 2010, 21:41:26 »
I have actually been planing/working on building my own using a existing cherry keyboard. I have the key positions partially set up and the materials gathered to make the mold for the body. I am currently snagged on a few spots right now due to personal constraints. I will post some specs once I feel there is something worth posting.
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Offline jvhaarst

  • Posts: 4
building own keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 01:53:44 »
This sounds interesting !
What kind of keyboard would you aim for ?
"Normal" layout, so in essence a flat board, or rather something more off the scale like the Kinesis Contoured ?

I would love to see a flat keyboard, but without the rows of keys shifted like they are now.
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Offline noctua

  • Posts: 188
building own keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 02:11:55 »
Quote from: ioantudor;186850

...What I don't like on the G80 is the big controller which takes so much space!




No, the new controller from my G80-3000 is very small, not much greater compared to the Teensy++... (scale unit is mm)
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Selfmade Keyboard I (done)
DT225 CH Trackball

Selfmade Keyboard II (95% completed)
L-Trac CST2545W-RC Trackball

both use Cherry MX Blue switches, an Teensy++ controller and have an Colemak layout

Offline ioantudor

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7
building own keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 02:16:56 »
Quote from: jvhaarst;186979
This sounds interesting !
What kind of keyboard would you aim for ?
"Normal" layout, so in essence a flat board, or rather something more off the scale like the Kinesis Contoured ?

I would love to see a flat keyboard, but without the rows of keys shifted like they are now.


layout should look almost like layout of the IBM M4-1. I'll post a scheme later. I don't want to change too much to the normal keyboard QWERTZ/Y layout because I'm familiar with this and also use very often different keyboards (e.g. on my laptop)

important for me is to have some space (one key) above the cursor keys. most mini keyboard does not have, the G80-1800 also has not much free space there. I also want to get rid of the right CTRL key, the right windows keys as I dont neet them and shorten the right SHIFT key a little bit (to standard key size) . Then I'll have some room for the cursor keys and around them.
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Offline ioantudor

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7
building own keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 02:19:06 »
Quote from: noctua;186983
Show Image


No, the new controller from my G80-3000 is very small, not much greater compared to the Teensy++... (scale unit is mm)


thank you very much for your picture! do you have more pictures from the inside of a G80?

especially I'm interested how the board under the switches looks like
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 May 2010, 02:26:19 by ioantudor »
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Offline noctua

  • Posts: 188
building own keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 02:35:12 »
Quote from: ioantudor;186986

...especially I'm interested how the board under the switches looks like




plain vanilla.. (you can find much more pictures here, take a look around..)
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Selfmade Keyboard I (done)
DT225 CH Trackball

Selfmade Keyboard II (95% completed)
L-Trac CST2545W-RC Trackball

both use Cherry MX Blue switches, an Teensy++ controller and have an Colemak layout

Offline Mental Hobbit

  • Posts: 461
building own keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 07:02:33 »
Quote from: ioantudor;186801
I don't know where to get the cherry keys from. Although I'm from Germany I can't find anything on ebay, google or some online stores for eletronic components.


Getting keycaps is cheap and easy. G81 from ebay.de, €1. Tons available at any time.

Quote from: ioantudor;186801
I plan to create a keyboard with almost the same layout like the M4-1 but with Cherry brown keys.


This is where it gets expensive. They don't sell Browns in Europe, neither in keyboards, nor as spare parts. So you'll have to import a board from North America or Asia for switches. $50 shipping + price of board + import tax and fees.
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Typing on blues.

Offline Mental Hobbit

  • Posts: 461
building own keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 07:19:05 »
Sadly yet more expensive than importing from the US. Wait, with the recent Euro devaluation, this might have changed. No, keyboardco charge in GBP, so it probably hasn't...
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Typing on blues.

Offline noctua

  • Posts: 188
building own keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 07:30:57 »
Quote from: Mental Hobbit;187001
...They don't sell Browns in Europe, neither in keyboards...


wrong assumption, look here http://www.tastaturen.com/prod/d/148.html
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Selfmade Keyboard I (done)
DT225 CH Trackball

Selfmade Keyboard II (95% completed)
L-Trac CST2545W-RC Trackball

both use Cherry MX Blue switches, an Teensy++ controller and have an Colemak layout

Offline Mental Hobbit

  • Posts: 461
building own keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 07:35:06 »
Quote from: noctua;187008
wrong assumption, look here http://www.tastaturen.com/prod/d/148.html


I don't see browns there. Soft-Druckpunkt are clears.
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Typing on blues.

Offline ioantudor

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7
building own keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 07:47:22 »
Quote from: Mental Hobbit;187012
I don't see browns there. Soft-Druckpunkt are clears.


I thought Soft Druckpunkt are browns? In cherry catalogue there are only 3 different types: (Clicky, Soft, Linear) = (blue, brown, black) or am I wrong?
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Offline Mental Hobbit

  • Posts: 461
building own keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 08:02:23 »
Browns are Cherry's red haired stepchild. In Europe, they won't even acknowledge their existance. They're not in the catalog.

Check the model numbers. All Soft-Druckpunkt boards marketed in Europe have a Q, which stands for clears.

If you're sure you want browns, you should take Webwit's offer before someone else does.
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 May 2010, 08:06:26 by Mental Hobbit »
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Typing on blues.

Offline noctua

  • Posts: 188
building own keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 08:45:57 »
Quote from: Mental Hobbit;187019
Browns are Cherry's red haired stepchild. In Europe, they won't even acknowledge their existance. They're not in the catalog.

Check the model numbers. All Soft-Druckpunkt boards marketed in Europe have a Q, which stands for clears.

If you're sure you want browns, you should take Webwit's offer before someone else does.


The model G80-3000LQCDE ("Soft-Druckpunkt") uses clear/white mx-switches thats right,
the browns are reserved for custom specific keyboards. But you may notice the difference
 are only 10cn.. (brown: 55 cN, white: 65 cN) i believe the feeling isn't much different.
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Selfmade Keyboard I (done)
DT225 CH Trackball

Selfmade Keyboard II (95% completed)
L-Trac CST2545W-RC Trackball

both use Cherry MX Blue switches, an Teensy++ controller and have an Colemak layout

Offline ioantudor

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 7
building own keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 09:23:53 »
Quote from: noctua;187026
The model G80-3000LQCDE ("Soft-Druckpunkt") uses clear/white mx-switches thats right,
the browns are reserved for custom specific keyboards. But you may notice the difference
 are only 10cn.. (brown: 55 cN, white: 65 cN) i believe the feeling isn't much different.


ah ok so the browns are "Soft Druckpunkt" which require less force, and they do not sell them separately?
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Offline noctua

  • Posts: 188
building own keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 09:39:38 »
Thats right. As stated by ripster's diagram above, they are different (10 cN). The "supply situation"
here in Europe/Germany isn't anything like as good as in ripster's territory.. :boink:
« Last Edit: Wed, 26 May 2010, 09:58:16 by noctua »
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Selfmade Keyboard I (done)
DT225 CH Trackball

Selfmade Keyboard II (95% completed)
L-Trac CST2545W-RC Trackball

both use Cherry MX Blue switches, an Teensy++ controller and have an Colemak layout

Offline Mental Hobbit

  • Posts: 461
building own keyboard
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 10:56:35 »
Quote from: webwit;187010
I have a NIB Cherry "Ricercar" SPOS


Webwit, do you have a Filco with browns too? If so, could you please check if the brwons in both boards feel different?
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Typing on blues.

Offline noctua

  • Posts: 188
building own keyboard
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 10:58:42 »
If you have some experience with edding-printed board and etching of them,
the stamina to gouge many many holes (like me), you can realize a first
prototype as pcb-mounted version..
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Selfmade Keyboard I (done)
DT225 CH Trackball

Selfmade Keyboard II (95% completed)
L-Trac CST2545W-RC Trackball

both use Cherry MX Blue switches, an Teensy++ controller and have an Colemak layout

Offline Infinite north

  • Posts: 162
building own keyboard
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 26 May 2010, 19:19:31 »
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Offline timon37

  • Posts: 27
building own keyboard
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 30 May 2010, 07:06:34 »
Quote from: ripster;186814
Nobody here has built their own COMPLETE keyboard from scratch (the lego datahand is close).


Guess I'll just have to make a custom controller, then it should qualify?;) I've built a test board with atmega32 on a universal pcb and played with it so I have a bit of experience, but I burned it by accidentally rotating the voltage knob (lame), and the shops around here usually don't have atwhatevers in stock:(
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