Author Topic: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK  (Read 31439 times)

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Offline menuhin

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 13 August 2019, 02:17:33 »
while technically correct this chart doesn't account for the short-SA profiles that have become more popular since it was made

but like says in the post: spherical angled
Popularity is not the point here.

Just shortening SA keycaps still leaves an incorrect keycap profile which only properly functions as intended when attached to keyswitches with tilted stems. When stuck onto MX (or similar) switches with straight stems, the result is a degraded/corrupted experience.

The original designers of an SA-style keycap shape were experts at IBM and Honeywell in the 1960s who did serious ergonomics research. Their work was copied by everyone else in the industry, most of whom did not have the same level of understanding.

The proper way to adapt SA-type keycaps for straight-stemmed switches (irrespective of the height) is to systematically rotate the tops so that a proper “stairstep” pattern is maintained between the home row and the two rows above. For inspiration look at the spherical keycaps used on Alps switches in Canon typewriters of the early 1980s, or look at signature plastics’s SS or DSS profile (if someone made a copy of SP’s DSS profile – which is basically this HSA idea but done correctly, but for which the molds sadly no longer exist – that would be amazing). Or for that matter look at “cherry profile” or “alps profile” cylindrical caps, etc.

Using SA profile as-is or just reducing its height is a poor choice, ergonomically. It will slow down typing and reduce accuracy.

It’s great to bring back good ideas and a pretty aesthetic from the 60s–70s, but people should be examining the design from first principles and figuring out *why* the old idea worked that way, not just copying a corrupted variant of the superficial form without understanding.

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Offline eskimojo

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 13 August 2019, 04:59:13 »
...
(if someone made a copy of SP’s DSS profile – which is basically this HSA idea but done correctly, but for which the molds sadly no longer exist – that would be amazing).
Didn't SP recently recommission their DSS profile? DSS Dolch

Offline zslane

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 13 August 2019, 11:51:11 »
Using SA profile as-is or just reducing its height is a poor choice, ergonomically. It will slow down typing and reduce accuracy.

While quite probably true, it is true in the most irrelevant sense, at least for me (and probably the vast majority of folks).

I touch-type nearly 90wpm with enough accuracy to get by quite nicely, even on SA keycaps and today's straight switches and plates. There is nothing in the way of ergonomics that would be so beneficial to me as to warrant a complete change to the profile, and in fact, I'm so used to it by now that anything which strayed too far from it would probably feel weird and uncomfortable and would keep me away from it. I doubt very many people would care or notice the so-called ergonomic benefits of a "properly" sculpted profile.

IBM designed their beamspring keyboards for an era when being a typist was practically a profession in and of itself. Outside of coders and bloggers, nobody types for a living today, and those that do don't need a few more WPM to make their jobs easier or lives better.

Online Puddsy

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 13 August 2019, 18:19:32 »
while technically correct this chart doesn't account for the short-SA profiles that have become more popular since it was made

but like says in the post: spherical angled
Popularity is not the point here.

Just shortening SA keycaps still leaves an incorrect keycap profile which only properly functions as intended when attached to keyswitches with tilted stems. When stuck onto MX (or similar) switches with straight stems, the result is a degraded/corrupted experience.

The original designers of an SA-style keycap shape were experts at IBM and Honeywell in the 1960s who did serious ergonomics research. Their work was copied by everyone else in the industry, most of whom did not have the same level of understanding.

The proper way to adapt SA-type keycaps for straight-stemmed switches (irrespective of the height) is to systematically rotate the tops so that a proper “stairstep” pattern is maintained between the home row and the two rows above. For inspiration look at the spherical keycaps used on Alps switches in Canon typewriters of the early 1980s, or look at signature plastics’s SS or DSS profile (if someone made a copy of SP’s DSS profile – which is basically this HSA idea but done correctly, but for which the molds sadly no longer exist – that would be amazing). Or for that matter look at “cherry profile” or “alps profile” cylindrical caps, etc.

Using SA profile as-is or just reducing its height is a poor choice, ergonomically. It will slow down typing and reduce accuracy.

It’s great to bring back good ideas and a pretty aesthetic from the 60s–70s, but people should be examining the design from first principles and figuring out *why* the old idea worked that way, not just copying a corrupted variant of the superficial form without understanding.

i'll bring this up to buddha

don't know if anything can be done since the molds are already nearly made, but it's a very good point
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 20 August 2019, 02:33:20 »
Didn't SP recently recommission their DSS profile? DSS Dolch

Oh wow, that’s awesome. Someone finally answering my question from 2014 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62417

Maybe I can finally try this out:



Anyone who likes old IBM beam spring keyboards should be able to get something quite close with DSS. Comparison:
« Last Edit: Tue, 20 August 2019, 02:39:28 by jacobolus »

Offline Carpelos

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 29 August 2019, 16:16:02 »
Love the retro look and shine finish. Sepia keycaps with cream legends would be superb, WoB too.

Offline lendflat

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #56 on: Fri, 06 September 2019, 18:58:54 »
How about a 9009 colorway? cause i personally hate GMK.

Offline EMC Labs

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #57 on: Fri, 06 September 2019, 19:54:27 »
The shine tho

Offline Findecanor

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #58 on: Fri, 06 September 2019, 20:40:34 »
Using SA profile as-is or just reducing its height is a poor choice, ergonomically. It will slow down typing and reduce accuracy.
What will slow down typists depends on what the typists are used to ... and these days, I think many are used to flatter keyboards — for which a flatter keycap angle would be more natural.
Putting SA on keyboards with high inclination would be bollocks though.

I also think that keycap angle measurements of spherical and cylindrical keycaps are not directly comparable.
The front edge matters.
I'd think that somewhere halfway between SA and DSS would be more ideal.
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 September 2019, 20:45:56 by Findecanor »
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Offline JT Keycaps

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #59 on: Thu, 12 September 2019, 04:05:53 »
some new samples.

Offline The_Boom_Boy

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 12 September 2019, 05:16:02 »

Offline Nuji

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 12 September 2019, 06:16:46 »
oooooooof i like. no need to worry about shine with these lol

Offline zslane

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #62 on: Thu, 12 September 2019, 11:26:34 »
Waiting for all the "SHIF T" complaints...

Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #63 on: Thu, 12 September 2019, 11:43:32 »
Glossy, like abs should be from the start.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline nyry43

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 12 September 2019, 11:56:10 »
Neat. I'd be interested in trying these out.

Offline rowdy

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #65 on: Sun, 15 September 2019, 22:07:53 »
How can you go from not knowing something exists, to desparately wanting it, in the space of a couple of seconds?
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Offline Adelscott

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #66 on: Mon, 16 September 2019, 03:29:00 »
Do they plan to make ISO-FR molds ?

Offline Lanrefni

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #67 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 19:27:16 »
some new samples.

Change the legends to black and make the all the mods black with purple legends and you will have my dream colorway.

Offline BserLarry

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #68 on: Fri, 20 September 2019, 22:17:43 »
Lets start this WoB GB already!

Offline phinix

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #69 on: Wed, 25 September 2019, 10:45:38 »
oooh, I can see HSA Retro set... mmm... with Petscii of course:)

Please please pleeeease make HSA Retro - those brown and burgundy caps. With Petscii!

But that brown+beige looks awesome, would buy a set with ISO UK. :thumb:
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 September 2019, 09:39:29 by phinix »
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Offline Butterbeer

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #70 on: Mon, 30 September 2019, 22:41:44 »
It’s great to bring back good ideas and a pretty aesthetic from the 60s–70s, but people should be examining the design from first principles and figuring out *why* the old idea worked that way, not just copying a corrupted variant of the superficial form without understanding.

I enjoyed your thesis statement and applaud the in-depth research presented in your posts. I haven't had to use my brain in a long time and your thread was enjoyable to read. Now to persuade the masses to accept your argument is another story.

Good Stuff

Offline phinix

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 03 October 2019, 07:20:51 »
Just wanted to ask - do they need to be that glossy?
Could they be like satin smooth, like SP SA?
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Offline menuhin

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #72 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 11:15:09 »
How can you go from not knowing something exists, to desparately wanting it, in the space of a couple of seconds?

The emptiness feeling and the FOMO among people in this community is super real!  :thumb:
Wishlist: 1) hotswap gasket mount; 2) nice Alps blank caps; 3) Hipro Iris with adjustable tenting; 4) CNC POM case
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Choc mini Gateron black
PLUM 84 'Topre-clone' 55g Korean dome
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Offline InvidiousIgnoramus

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 04 October 2019, 12:41:55 »
Just wanted to ask - do they need to be that glossy?
Could they be like satin smooth, like SP SA?
But why do that? It's just gonna shine anyway. Besides, most vintage keycaps of this form factor are shiny.
I long for the day when I find a beamspring. (At a not insane price)

Offline deacon

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #74 on: Wed, 16 October 2019, 14:52:19 »
Just saw this while looking for some more ABS doubleshot Cherry alphas since that has been the best thing I've found so far.

I'd prefer the SA dished sculpturing on a flat board rather than stair step sculpturing on an angled board but then again I only use four rows. These would also be much closer in height to the GMK 1u and 2u convex caps I prefer as thumb keys.

I'm very excited by the prospect of this new profile.

Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #75 on: Sat, 16 November 2019, 01:22:16 »
The WoB looks gorgeous, before giving it a shot.. how does HSA compares to KAT profile?

Offline Adelscott

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #76 on: Sat, 16 November 2019, 07:29:11 »
- ISO (Nor, De, Uk) keycaps are being molded for both CA and HSA.

Would buy with 2 letters added to that list : FR

Offline yaus

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #77 on: Tue, 19 November 2019, 14:52:34 »
Any idea of if there will ever be HSA blanks for sale? Perhaps with support for ergodox style layouts (a few 1.5u and 2u keys)?

Offline treeleaf64

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #78 on: Thu, 05 December 2019, 11:42:35 »
Manufacturers should angle the plate itself? I don't understand your meaning.

Offline KHAANNN

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #79 on: Mon, 16 March 2020, 12:32:19 »
Are stems flush like D/SA keycaps? Might as well have shortened the stems ~1mm too

But in any case, I'd join HSA Beige on Brown if I had seen it - I'd just quickly scrub the keycaps I'm going to use with 2000 grit sandpaper to remove that gloss too - I was wanting a SA set for a while, just for the novelty, might as well make it HSA
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Offline phinix

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Re: HSA, a new keycap profile by JTK
« Reply #80 on: Mon, 16 March 2020, 13:21:50 »
When brown ones will be ready?
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