Author Topic: My keyboard  (Read 1204 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Shmozart

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
My keyboard
« on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 02:43:44 »
Here is my view on how ergonomic keyboard should look like.
The rationals behind the design are:
* the strongest and the most agile fingers are thumb and index finger
* thumb is opposed to other fingers, so for thumb it is convenient to press buttons at different angles than for other fingers
* there are three modifiers (shift, alt and control), which are in fact different flavors of the same concept, and sometimes modifiers are used in pairs. So they form a circle.

So I came up with the following solutions;
* Put buttons dedicated to thumb into positions where it is convenient to press them by thumb.
* Add extra column for index finger and place there character input buttons, that are usually left to positions where we have weak pinkies.
* Modifier circle with six sectors for single modifiers and pairs of them.

Online suicidal_orange

  • * Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3482
  • Location: England
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 04:49:24 »
Wow, what a first post!  Hard to imagine the layout as you're using blank caps but anything this custom has to be perfect, for it's designer at least.

Does it have a name?
                               
Ducky Zero, MX Reds    JD40, Jailhouse Blues           GH60
Soarer controller

Offline Shmozart

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 06:19:19 »
Maybe "Rule of thumb" could be the good name. Layout is qwerty. It is hard to say if it is perfect or not, now I need time to get used to it.
« Last Edit: Mon, 10 February 2020, 06:22:45 by Shmozart »

Offline nevin

  • Posts: 649
  • Location: US
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 06:48:40 »
nice work! :thumb: what an introduction!

looks like your modifier wheels can press up to two modifiers with a single button press, very cool. this would be excellent for someone like me, that does more shortcuts than actual typing.
great concept!
would love to see a full map of your layout (especially the modifier circles). i'm guessing you have a couple duplicates to get all the combinations/variations.

i'd also be curious as to what your thoughts/experience are on your staggered columnar layout. what layout/form factor were you using before?
- reason i'm asking... i currently have a keeb.io viterbi (split 5x7 ortho, and love it) but would like to try the columnar stagger and thumb clusters and would like to hear your experiences/transition.

i'm happy you decided to join and share this wonderful creation.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline ergonaut

  • Posts: 71
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 06:51:23 »
It looks superb!!

I'm not sure I'd like having the modifiers on those wheel things, but to each his own.

Regardless, this is an incredible piece of DIY engineering, well done!

Offline Shmozart

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 09:29:07 »
nice work! :thumb: what an introduction!

looks like your modifier wheels can press up to two modifiers with a single button press, very cool. this would be excellent for someone like me, that does more shortcuts than actual typing.
great concept!
Yes I can press to modifiers with a single button press. So sectors are arranged as single-pair-single-pair-single-pair. sectors for single modifier presses are lifted a bit above "pair" sectors.
would love to see a full map of your layout (especially the modifier circles). i'm guessing you have a couple duplicates to get all the combinations/variations.
At this point my beta version keyboard is controlled by a controller taken from old keyboard, which does not have two modifiers on one key, of course. So modifiers are implemented so, that switches (d2c like in mice) are arranged shift-shift-ctrl-ctrl-alt-alt, and every sector presses two of them at a time, but some of them press parallel switches, some non-parallel. In next version I'm going to use my own controller, there I will make one switch per sector.

i'd also be curious as to what your thoughts/experience are on your staggered columnar layout. what layout/form factor were you using before?
- reason i'm asking... i currently have a keeb.io viterbi (split 5x7 ortho, and love it) but would like to try the columnar stagger and thumb clusters and would like to hear your experiences/transition.

i'm happy you decided to join and share this wonderful creation.
so far I have used only conventional keyboards, so columnar staggering is not in muscle memory, this will take time to get used. Today is my first day of usage, and I have a feeling, that I want conventional KB I am used too, but when it comes to key combinations that are difficult on conventional KB, it feels very nice. Let's see how long will it take to get comfortable with the new KB layout.

Offline Shmozart

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 09:33:17 »
It looks superb!!

I'm not sure I'd like having the modifiers on those wheel things, but to each his own.

Regardless, this is an incredible piece of DIY engineering, well done!

Thanks,
I think modifier circle is coolest thing I have done in this keyboard, I can press any button with any modifier or pair of them with one hand in relaxed and natural position

Offline nevin

  • Posts: 649
  • Location: US
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 10 February 2020, 11:59:38 »
give it a week or two at the very least. will take a bit to get your accuracy/typing speed back up to par as well. switching from the layout you've known forever to something new takes a bit to kick the muscle memory but it's totally worth it.

i was very hesitant to go to a split ortho, now i'm kicking myself for not switching sooner.
my journey... i went from standard 104 -to- 60% -to- large split ortho (5x7s)

when you get to wiring in a programmable controller, let me know if you need help with the firmware (QMK).
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline theKM

  • Posts: 17
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 11 February 2020, 11:34:30 »
awesome! ...to be honest, I'm just not sure why more people haven't gone with this idea for orientation of thumb controls. I'm half way through designing a thing that also orients keys on the same plane as you have them, with the thumb cluster under the main board. I put my trackball under the keyboard layer and it's rather fantastic...


Offline nevin

  • Posts: 649
  • Location: US
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 11 February 2020, 11:39:28 »
Nice! @theKM
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Shmozart

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 12 February 2020, 02:22:27 »
theKM, what do you have there for the left hand?

Offline theKM

  • Posts: 17
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 12 February 2020, 11:04:49 »
Nice! @theKM
Many thanks!

theKM, what do you have there for the left hand?
Nothing there at the moment, this is just the initial setup to confirm things with the Iris. I was using a Kinesis, so just getting rolling with true split. Specifically to your question though, next step is to add another rotary encorder to the left side where the ball is on the right, but I'm going to use the outside motor shell from a racing drone quadcoptor to operate the rotary encoder... reason is; they're crazy pretty things, and the holes in the motor shell will be absolutely perfect to rest my thumb in anywhere on the motor and rotate it super easy with plenty of grip for just my thumb tip.

Pic attached for example, remove rotating part (shaft and motor "bell" as we call it), dremel off the prop shaft, 3d print adapter for the encoder and there she goes!

...also, these motors will be about the same size as the trackball, so it'll also help the sides look symmetric for some sex-appeal :)

Offline theKM

  • Posts: 17
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 12 February 2020, 12:38:20 »
theKM, what do you have there for the left hand?

I keep looking at your keyboard, you've made some really nice choices in there. How are the chording dials working out for you?... I've been pondering low-profile keycaps for similar reasons of chording two mod keys together

Offline ergonaut

  • Posts: 71
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 12 February 2020, 13:36:18 »
Thanks,
I think modifier circle is coolest thing I have done in this keyboard, I can press any button with any modifier or pair of them with one hand in relaxed and natural position

Yeah, that part of it is indeed pretty cool! I think what I don't like so much about them is their position I think I would move them closer to the alpha blocks. But then again, I don't know how big your hands are.

Offline theKM

  • Posts: 17
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 12 February 2020, 13:44:25 »
Yeah, that part of it is indeed pretty cool! I think what I don't like so much about them is their position I think I would move them closer to the alpha blocks. But then again, I don't know how big your hands are.
Imagine a cool world where people turn up to a keyboard outfitting pro, like the pro shop in a bowling alley where they measure you for your own custom bowling ball... but for keyboards! :)

Offline ergonaut

  • Posts: 71
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 12 February 2020, 14:02:48 »
Imagine a cool world where people turn up to a keyboard outfitting pro, like the pro shop in a bowling alley where they measure you for your own custom bowling ball... but for keyboards! :)

That'd be super nice :)

I think the Dumang keyboard is the closest we have to that in the real world.

Offline theKM

  • Posts: 17
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 12 February 2020, 14:32:27 »
I think the Dumang keyboard is the closest we have to that in the real world.

it's so terribly flat! :)

I reckon that it would be similar to the bowling ball, measure fingers and get the arc, have an overly complicated keyboard prototyping rig that could quickly adjust to reflect the measurements for a little try-out... but then 3d print the base and have it hand-wired for final delivery a few weeks later.

...and even with this there's some half-way build steps that could be done in batches ahead of time (like making getting batches of sockets that already have diodes in them, or even have built individual key pots the keys sit in, so that what's custom 3d printed is more of a frame around these key boxes that's thinner, less material, thus quicker to print for faster turn-around)...

actually! the prototyping frame would just be like the rack of lenses that the optometrist have to put in their gadget... keyboard pro has a rack of dozens of key columns for each finger size... with varying row counts... and then mount into adjustable tracks that can adjust column stagger, height from palm, and space between columns...  for the on-the-day size test before submitting the order for the build. Sounds so fun!
« Last Edit: Wed, 12 February 2020, 14:34:53 by theKM »

Offline Shmozart

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 04:44:48 »
I keep looking at your keyboard, you've made some really nice choices in there. How are the chording dials working out for you?... I've been pondering low-profile keycaps for similar reasons of chording two mod keys together
So is the question about technical implementation of the mod keys or about user experience?

Offline theKM

  • Posts: 17
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 13 February 2020, 08:48:08 »
So is the question about technical implementation of the mod keys or about user experience?

user experience, how much you like using them to chord with your thumb tip (as opposed to other thumb chording which is usually the side of someone's thumb I guess)

Offline Shmozart

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 19 February 2020, 03:17:33 »
Modifier usage seems very nice, although implementation is not perfect yet, and there is no chording in that sense that there is only one keypress on a pair of modifiers. Pressing two modifiers at a time on a conventional keyboard is somewhat annoying.

Offline nevin

  • Posts: 649
  • Location: US
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 19 February 2020, 04:08:48 »
@Shmozart - when you're ready, lets get this converted over to one of the popular controllers (teensy, promicro, elite-c, postage board, etc.) that way you can program any key to be whatever you like (including "chorded" key combinations)

it seems a shame that you've put all this work in on a fantastically unique keyboard only to have it limited by an off-the-shelf oem/non programmable controller.

i'll help you with the programming/setup. just need to know how you have the keymatrix laid out.

here are two good guides on handwiring (if you need for reference)
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=87689.0
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103108.0

i created a rough layout of your keyboard in Keyboard Layout Editor
236004-0
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/96039de9448cc889d1260650f763cdd0
- please save, use, edit this layout with your keymap.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68

Offline Shmozart

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 10
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 20 February 2020, 02:28:53 »
@Shmozart - when you're ready, lets get this converted over to one of the popular controllers (teensy, promicro, elite-c, postage board, etc.) that way you can program any key to be whatever you like (including "chorded" key combinations)

it seems a shame that you've put all this work in on a fantastically unique keyboard only to have it limited by an off-the-shelf oem/non programmable controller.

i'll help you with the programming/setup. just need to know how you have the keymatrix laid out.

here are two good guides on handwiring (if you need for reference)
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=87689.0
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=103108.0

i created a rough layout of your keyboard in Keyboard Layout Editor
(Attachment Link)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/96039de9448cc889d1260650f763cdd0
- please save, use, edit this layout with your keymap.

It is planned to move everything on a programmable controller, at the moment I'm waiting for parts to be delivered from china. Thank you very much for help offer, I think I will manage by myself.

Offline nevin

  • Posts: 649
  • Location: US
Re: My keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 20 February 2020, 02:35:13 »
no problem.

keep us posted with your progress.
Keeb.io Viterbi, Apple m0110, Apple m0120, Apple m0110a, Apple 658-4081, Apple M1242, Apple AEK II, MK96, GH60/Pure, Cherry g84-4100, Adesso AKP-220B, Magicforce 68