Author Topic: newbie mechanical keyboard question  (Read 4665 times)

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Offline Rowdywalrus

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 14:55:32 »
Hey guys,

My old keyboard is in the process of breaking (Saitek Eclipse), and in my keyboard shopping I stumbled upon the steelseries 7g and through that mechanical keyboards in general. After spending considerable time researching them I'm pretty set on buying one, but unfortunately there aren't any stores in my area that would have them in stock, so it's impossible for me to test out the various switches before buying one.

I'm leaning towards one with the cherry MX black switches because I primarily game on my PC, but I'm a little worried because I've heard they are very stiff and can be tiring. Would anyone be able to describe the difference between MX black's and a typical rubber dome keyboard in terms of actuation force?

Thanks!

Offline British

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 15:12:18 »
Hello there !

You can find the actuation forces for most of the switches on our lovely wiki.

Regarding testing keyboards in you vicinity, you could edit your profile and show which area you're in (at least roughly).
Chances are people can point you to "special places" where keyboard extravaganza happens.

Now, if you want to try MX blacks without spending many bucks on a keyboard that can't ever have a real backspace key, you can always buy some Cherry G80-3000, or... MX11900, if I'm not mistaken.
eBay is your friend of course, but you could find some stores if you lean that way.
Got mine (G80-3000) on eBay for around 50€, shipping included.

To not get lost with Cherry models, there's yet another wiki article.

Offline Rowdywalrus

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 15:18:34 »
Thanks for the response!

The links were helpful but I still haven't managed to find anything that directly compared the actuation force of mechanical switches like the cherry blacks to that of typical rubber dome keyboards. Does anyone with experience using both a cherry black keyboard and rubber dome mind shedding some insight?

thanks!

Offline Infinite north

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 15:38:08 »
If you are worried about it go with browns, blacks are overrated. I think the design was originally made for POS keyboards that needed to be durable, hard to accidentally press a key and didn't have anyone typing on them much. the tactile bump browns have is so small you won't really notice it until you have typed on it for awhile. you could spend the extra money and buy or make red switches if you really think you need linear.


EDIT: You want some way to compare rubber domes to blacks. think of it this way, your rubber domes snap up and down so it's fairly easy to hold a key down. the blacks have nothing to help keep them pressed down, this makes your fingers add quite a bit of force to hold down a key. pinkie fingers get stressed more than on a rubber dome.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 June 2010, 15:43:10 by Infinite north »

Offline Arc'xer

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 15:51:11 »
It's hard to compare due to the inherit cheapness of membranes. They degrade at different paces depending on material. But for the most part most membrane domes are in the 40-55g area but again it's inconsistent.

Ironically after my mx blue filco broke in an accident. I went back to a Microsoft internet pro(2003-2004 membrane dome, surprisingly good quality at least body and key cap wise) I had that was well worn. It felt horrible, inconsistent, and not smooth. The black's despite their negatives for typing are MUCH better than your standard keyboard domes.

They are linear, some would say progressive. They subtly increase in resistance starting at 40cN, actuating at 60cN, and bottoming out at 80cN. They are very smooth, almost no hysteresis, and are sensitive despite their resistive and heavy nature they can be surprisingly sensitive. I guess it's probably because they are the most simplistic or at least considering to be one of the most simplistic of the cherry brand. The resistance is subtle but there it's very shadowy at times, some say it's not there but that's not true.

They are sorta of a two-face switch. Typing softly without bottoming out makes you very tired and fatiguing to the fingers but punching through to the bottom doesn't really fatigue in my case at least until a much later time. I will say that while I like the switch and they are nice, they can be burdensome and tiring plus inconsistent. Sometimes you fly on them, other times they feel like quicksand except smoothly. And sometimes they feel like they come up too fast pushing you finger up and sometimes too slowly, it's very strange it's more noticeable early on at least for me before getting used to them and loosening up.

The heavy/resistive nature of them not just for typing but gaming can sometimes be bad. I notice that at times I would misjudge the required strength and would not actuate the switch. I guess it could be my fault I do have a bit of a heavy handed touch though I have control to type softer. I guess it be nice to test out the mx reds. I mean they do rock for FPS gaming but sometimes it can be a bit much. RTS I've seen some complaints on them being too heavy/resistive. Most of the mx black users seem to be FPS gamers or gamers where quick, consistent key presses are not needed at least for extended periods of time.

Right now I'm on the mx browns. Many consider them a middle ground between typing and gaming. But....

I don't want to give recommendations, I sometimes feel like I give out an idea and the person jumps with it without researching. I'm not saying the black's are not worth the buy but try and secure a cheaper mx black keyboard like 20-30 dollar mx black and see if you like it. Because the blacks are and I do agree, to some extent of the negatives; I don't hate them but I do have issues with them at times.

It's a switch that is very dependent on mood and energy. Sometimes they feel awesome and it's spectacular and then later in the day they are just the polar opposite and you hate them and are so tiring and whatnot. Not to say what will happen to you is the same as me but if your worried I'd be careful.

Also speaking on their break-in period. I'd say to loosen up is about a normal as other switch 1-2 weeks. But fully break-in can take months if not years, I've noticed when I did use them that they felt a bit lighter since I bought them around 6-8 months ago.

Offline kishy

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 16:02:03 »
Rubber domes != membranes
Enthusiast of springs which buckle noisily: my keyboards
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Offline itlnstln

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 16:39:07 »
Quote from: kishy;195544
Rubber domes != membranes


That said...

Membranes != Rubber Domes


Just for completeness' sake.


Offline washuai

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 18:22:11 »
If you're careful about who you buy from, find a store with a good return policy and try them out with a plan to return if you don't like them.  

Déck keyboards have a 30 day guarantee, so you can return within 30 days, if you don't like it.  In general you need to give a board a month to really know, though.

Otherwise, like some of the members said, try to get a cheap tester on ebay and you can resell that if you don't like it.
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Offline Rowdywalrus

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 19:26:00 »
Thanks so much for the detailed and well thought out responses, and I really appreciate the force comparisons between membrane and mechanical switches.

I'm a huge Starcraft (soon to be sc2!) junkie, and RTS games are definitely my focus so I'm slightly worried about what was said with regard to black switches for RTS games. I initially planned on getting a keyboard with black switches because I was concerned with accidental keypresses and I read that the black switches work very well with rapidly double tapping keys (which you end up doing a lot in sc). However, it sounds like brown switches might be a better choice.

Thanks for being so helpful, I definitely learned a lot! Any hardcore RTS gamers out there have some final insight to share? :D

Offline Brodie337

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 20:19:51 »
The Browns are a fantastic choice if you both type and game. Alot of the time the initial reaction is "meh", but after a while you can really begin to appreciate their subtlety.

Offline elbowglue

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 20:25:28 »
I am a big starcraft fan.  I find that having the keyboard click back at you is a big benefit in playing RTS type games.  I would highly advise for a click keyboard for RTS type games to confirm you hit the button without having to look for confirmation on the screen or listen to the "yes sir" response all the time.  Thus best KB for RTS gaming in my opinion is a cherry blue or buckling spring type keyboard.

Even with first person shooters I find cherry blues to work just fine for my purposes.

For typing, cherry blues are my #1 choice as well, unless noise is an issue in which I vote cherry brown's.

If you wanted to go with a cherry blue full sized keyboard you should consider the adesso MKB-135b or a filco cherry blue keyboard - if you want a tenkeyless design or spacesaving design consider the adesso mkb-125b or filco tenkeyless.  If you can find it the g80-3000LSCRC-2 is also a fantastic keyboard as well.
« Last Edit: Tue, 22 June 2010, 20:32:55 by elbowglue »
My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline Arc'xer

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 22 June 2010, 21:30:57 »
I always wondered how mx blues or model M/F, or any deliberate noise making keyboards; would sound with one of the pros playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIQdfiR0WW8

Offline Rowdywalrus

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 23 June 2010, 01:06:07 »
Haha that video of nada was pretty cool, was funny to see him lose to a rando on bnet at the end too. I really appreciate all the information and advice, wayyy more than I had ever hoped for when I posted the question, although now I'm even more conflicted thanks to elbowglue's endorsement of the cherry blue switches, gahhh!

I guess the only thing for me to do is buy a couple cheap boards and see what type of switch I'm comfortable with.

Thanks again guys!

Offline aegrotatio

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newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 23 June 2010, 13:57:39 »
I just did some experiments and discovered the awesome ABS M1, which does not click but thocks at the bottom, has a very subtle tactile bump.  Thing is, though, the keystroke actuation happens *before* the tactile bump, not during it or after it, but *before* it.  I don't really know how that works or why but it's worth noting.

I don't happen to care since I bottom out all the time (that's what SHE said, yeah, I know).
Daily Drivers: Ducky DK1087XM || DSI ASK-6600 || Rosewill RK-9000 BL, BR, BL, and RE || ABS M1 || Das Keyboard Silent || HHKB Lite and Lite 2 || DSI Big Font (kids love it)
Yearning for: Any ALPS keyboard || Any tenkeyless mechanical keyboard
Permanent collection: Poker Blue and Brown || Adesso MKB-125B || SIIG MiniTouch Geek Hack Space Saver || Chicony 5181 Monterey Blue || Chicony 5191 Clone Cherry Blues || Key Tronic 3600 || Unicomp Endurapro & SmarTrex || A crate of IBM Model M and Model M Space Saving boards || NeXTstation Slab || Amiga 3000 || BTC-5100C black and beige || SIIG MiniTouch Plus black and beige
Retired collection: SIIG MiniTouch Monterey Blue || Razer BlackWidow

newbie mechanical keyboard question
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 23 June 2010, 14:25:45 »
Dunno where you're located, but by far the cheapest linear boards over here in the Netherlands are Dell AT 101 types with black Alps. See http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10264 for pictures. They go for 2 euros or so in flea markets. Around 5 euros from the ebay-type sites.

They're pretty light to type on with relatively low travel. And are overall reasonably pleasant. Dunno how they compare to cherry black/brown switches, though. I use a model-M for daily work, which is much heavier, so take that as you will.
Current collection: HHKB Pro 2 black on black, HHKB Pro 2 white/grey blank, [strike]Dell AT101W[/strike] (sold to SirClickAlot), 1992 Model M, Key Tronic Ergoforce KT 2001, BTC 5100 C. Dead boards: MS Natural Elite, MS Natural 4000.