Review sample of Das

[Phaedrus2129]

I have a review sample of the Das Professional S here, been typing on it for about 15 minutes, trying to make up my mind on whether or not I like MX blues better than buckling springs or not. It's definitely close. I like the click of blues better, but they have a clacky bottoming out sound that the Model M does not. The switches are lighter, but I'm definitely noticing that release issue that makes them not advised for gaming.


I'm just not sure.

[Mental Hobbit]

On buckling spring you always bottom out, rather softly, but still. I found it very easy to get used to not bottoming out on blue MX due to the super crisp tactile feedback.

[wellington1869]

I have a review sample of the Das Professional S here, been typing on it for about 15 minutes, trying to make up my mind on whether or not I like MX blues better than buckling springs or not. It's definitely close. I like the click of blues better, but they have a clacky bottoming out sound that the Model M does not. The switches are lighter, but I'm definitely noticing that release issue that makes them not advised for gaming.


I'm just not sure.

how come you get to have a review sample?!

Let the novelty wear off before deciding. THe blues at first can be really neat but sometimes that feeling wears off after a few days. THen you'll be in a better position to compare them.

[Zalusithix]

Buckling Springs versus Cherry Blues is close.  As shown in the Favorite Switch poll where Cherry Blues are still winning despite some old time Geekhackers not liking them.

Of course, there's the issue of how many people have actually tried all (or even half) of the switches in person before voting on a "favorite".

[ch_123]

Buckling Spring is winning 84 to 72.

[chimera15]

Yeah, I don't like how blues can bottom out harsh at high speeds.  My favorite is alps creams with a clicky leaf in them.  So If I do bottom out there's a somewhat soft landing.

[noctua]

Hmm, i use snippets of rubber bands for soft landing..

[Phaedrus2129]

I think Das should have used an MX green under the space bar. Yeah, I blubbered about the MX gray in my MX11800, but that's because it served no useful purpose. On the Das the keys make that loud clack when they bottom out due to the plate mounting system. Since the spacebar always bottoms out I always get that loud clack, which is the loudest part of typing on this board, even though I'm not bottoming out the other keys (much) (and after just a few hours!).

Using an MX green would have made it a lot easier to not bottom out the space bar. But would it have cost more? Hmmm...

[aegrotatio]

I would prefer if all keyboard makers would completely silence the backspace key as much as possible.  My co-worker with the DAS keyboard, all you hear all day long is "tickticktick tick tick swackswackswackswackswackswack tickticktick swackswackswackswackswackswack" where swack is the backspace key.

He's not very good at much.

[Phaedrus2129]

Nah, I have to send it back after I review it.

[skcheng]

Ask them why they nuked the Das Multimedia version of the S after one month of shipping.


That was weird.

I love mine.   Went to buy another one just to find out they're discontinued.  Oh well......I'll find another one eventually.

[Phaedrus2129]

I already sent a few questions:

Phædrus
 to Thomas
   
show details 7:03 PM (16 hours ago)
   
Thank you, the review sample has arrived, I should have the review done by the end of the week. I have a few questions, however.

1.) This version does not have media keys. I've heard that they were removed due to users complaining about the Fn key replacing the left Windows key. Is there any reason this feature was removed entirely, rather than switching Fn to the right Windows key, or including some kind of settings switch (a la the dip switches on the HHKB, only just one switch instead of six).

2.) Cherry often uses MX green switches (like MX blue but with a heavier spring) for the space bar switch on its MX blue models. While I feel that the equivalent change (MX gray) on MX brown boards is ill advised, I think it may have benefited the Das to use an MX green there as the space bar always bottoms out with a loud clack even when the user has learned how not to bottom out the normal keys. However, my opinion may be a minority view. Why did Das choose to use an MX blue for the spacebar, rather than an MX green like Cherry does?

3.) The Das Professional S Silent costs $6 more than the regular version; however the only difference is the choice of MX brown switches instead of MX blue. Are MX brown switches more expensive, or is there another reason for the price difference?

4.) Does Das have any plans to release new keyboards aimed at different markets? For instance, a gaming keyboard (MX browns or blacks, backlighting, extra macro keys, etc.), or a budget mechanical keyboard (in the $75-$100 price range instead of $120-$140), or a tenkeyless version, or anything similar? Or are you content with your current lineup?

5.) What advantages for typing does Das feel its keyboard has over products like the Filco Majestouch 104-key or Unicomp Customizer?

6.) Is the USB hub full-power and capable of powering high-draw devices? Note, I will be testing this.

7.) Are there any plans to upgrade the hub to USB 3.0?

8.) There are a handful of keys *very slightly* out of skew. Not so much most people would notice, but I pay attention to details. This is something that seems to be common with Costar-manufactured Cherry MX boards, most notably in a recent review of the Adesso MKB-135B. Now the skew on this sample is far, far less than that on the Adesso I saw, enough that it doesn't really matter, but it is present. Do you have any information on the cause of this issue, and are there any plans to fix it?

9.) The Das uses a metal backplate. Is there any reason this method of construction was chosen over an unsupported PCB?

10.) What grade of steel was chosen for the backplate? Feel free to give me the engineering terminology for it.



Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I think you have a very nice product here, and my review is shaping up so far to be mostly positive.

One final question: do you use the Das Professional S in your offices, and if so how many people per month does the clicking drive insane?

Again, thanks.

- Michael

Thomas Aitchison
 to me
   
show details 11:02 AM (43 minutes ago)
   
Michael, I will forward these questions along and get some feedback to you soon. Can't guarantee I'll have something before end of day, but will get moving forward on this.
 
Thanks!
 
Thomas


 

[wellington1869]

Re: your #4, keep in mind metadot offers 32% off (educational discount) for students. Thats a whopping discount for the das S.

Also in my experience metadot has been very responsive with communications... something I appreciate. They've been good with their recalls too, all things considered, I appreciate their taking media keys off market if there was something wrong with them,and with accepting and fixing their firmware issues.  (contrast that with, say, the filco fiasco where they're still in half-hearted denial even after costar acknowledged the firmware limitations).  Metadot's approach to these common problems seems more professional to me than simplistic denial that we've seen from filco and others.

[itlnstln]

Grade of steel for the backplate?

lol - the engineers will love that one.

Uh, B-minus?

[ch_123]

2.) Cherry often uses MX green switches (like MX blue but with a heavier spring) for the space bar switch on its MX blue models. While I feel that the equivalent change (MX gray) on MX brown boards is ill advised, I think it may have benefited the Das to use an MX green there as the space bar always bottoms out with a loud clack even when the user has learned how not to bottom out the normal keys. However, my opinion may be a minority view. Why did Das choose to use an MX blue for the spacebar, rather than an MX green like Cherry does?

...

9.) The Das uses a metal backplate. Is there any reason this method of construction was chosen over an unsupported PCB?

10.) What grade of steel was chosen for the backplate? Feel free to give me the engineering terminology for it.

"We don't know, we don't question the funny Taiwanese people who put our label on their keyboards"

I would be willing to bet that only Cherry has access to the Green switches.

[Phaedrus2129]

Re: your #4, keep in mind metadot offers 32% off (educational discount) for students. Thats a whopping discount for the das S.

Also in my experience metadot has been very responsive with communications... something I appreciate. They've been good with their recalls too, all things considered, I appreciate their taking media keys off market if there was something wrong with them,and with accepting and fixing their firmware issues.  (contrast that with, say, the filco fiasco where they're still in half-hearted denial even after costar acknowledged the firmware limitations).  Metadot's approach to these common problems seems more professional to me than simplistic denial that we've seen from filco and others.

Wow, really? That moves the odds of me buying one from "maybe" to "the minute I've got a spare $90.

And I do agree, the Das feels like a very professional product, and it's cheaper than the Filco as well. The Filco rarely gets my recommendation anymore; Unicomp, KR-6230, Das Professional S, Deck Legend, in order of increasing budget. Though it is nice they have a tenkeyless.

Grade of steel for the backplate?

lol - the engineers will love that one.

I'm curious, and needed a 10th question. I have a buddy going to U of Toronto for mechanical engineering, he understands all that metallurgy stuff.

"We don't know, we don't question the funny Taiwanese people who put our label on their keyboards"

I would be willing to bet that only Cherry has access to the Green switches.

Hah, good way of putting it. And it does seem possible only Cherry has greens, or that Costar doesn't offer them.

[ch_123]

Wow, really? That moves the odds of me buying one from "maybe" to "the minute I've got a spare $90.

And I do agree, the Das feels like a very professional product, and it's cheaper than the Filco as well. The Filco rarely gets my recommendation anymore; Unicomp, KR-6230, Das Professional S, Deck Legend, in order of increasing budget. Though it is nice they have a tenkeyless.

You recommend the KR-6230 over the Unicomp and Filco? Lolwut?

[wellington1869]

Wow, really? That moves the odds of me buying one from "maybe" to "the minute I've got a spare $90.

ya, just email their support folks and request the educational discount. They'll give it to you as a coupon code to enter when ordering. Its a very steep discount. Not well advertized (on the site they simply say 'ask us about educational discount'. I didnt realize it was a whopping 32%).

[Phaedrus2129]

You recommend the KR-6230 over the Unicomp and Filco? Lolwut?

I was going by pricing, not my picks. And I mainly make recommendations at OCN, so gaming is important to most of the people, which makes the KR-6230 with NKRO better than the Unicomp Customizer.

Filco, from what I can see, has a couple of downsides compared to the Das. A.) Costs more, plus you pay shipping, which means it costs ~$150 for most people, vs. $130. B.) EKB has no return policy, which is a major drawback for someone unsure of what switch they want, or if mechanicals are for them. C.) It has a few less features, like the USB hub and hidden LEDs.

And if you're a student the Das is $88, which is insanely good, and blows everything else out of the water as far as value is concerned.

So imo Das > Filco.

But my G80-8200 was still one of the best $35 I've ever spent, it's just ugly as puke compared to the Das.

[wellington1869]

And if you're a student the Das is $88, which is insanely good, and blows everything else out of the water

$87.72 to be exact.
Ask me how I know :-D

[trievalot]

how do you know?

[wellington1869]

how do you know?

Tee hee. Thanks for asking

I fell off the wagon. Apparently I felt I needed some more piano black in my life

I'm truly disappointed in myself for falling off the wagon, but yea, i'm now the proud owner of a Das S Professional. The discount did push me over the edge. I caressed the board in person at J&R a couple of times, did like it a lot.

I've got to hold the line at one mech board though. Dont want to go whole hog like I did last year. Also I swore I wouldnt mod any more.

[gr1m]

32% education discount eh?

I'm down to get a Das now.

[TexasFlood]

32% education discount eh?

I'm down to get a Das now.

But... Das Keyboard Model S Professional, regular or silent?

[typo]

is the current filco with mx blues the same as the das 3 or the das s?

thanks

[ch_123]

They come out of the same factory, they both use plate mounted Cherry switches, but the similarities end there. Different controller, different case, different keycaps. Possibly different PCB for the switches.

[microsoft windows]

I've heard some bad things about Sad-backwards keyboards.

[Phaedrus2129]

The numpad 5 has a nipply nub instead of a bar. They should do that with the F and J keys too, or make it an option.

[Phaedrus2129]

tickatickatickatickaCLUNKACLUNKtickatick. I like the feel of MX blues, but the sound is a little much for me, even with headphones. There's a reason I swapped out my 1391401 for an MX brown board, and if I were to get a Das I'd probably get a silent version. But then... The only real change from my G80-8200 would be lack of reprogrammable keys, lack of relegendable keys, smaller footprint, USB hub, and it doesn't look like a beige turd. EDIT: Oh, and the Das has an ANSI layout.

Basically I'd be trading features for aesthetics. Ugh, if only my G80 were black. As is the only *really* compelling argument for a Das Silent over my G80 is looks. I'd just spraypaint the keyboard myself, except I'm not sure it wouldn't come out looking like a turd. Also, I don't know how well the different colored keys will look dyed.


But if you like MX blues then I still highly recommend the Das.

[Phaedrus2129]

So they forwarded me to someone else in a higher position, guess I asked a bit more than they were used to. I'm not going to share all the info, but a few tidbits... They removed media key functionality because people complained about the loss of the left Win key (established) and didn't implement it in a different way because it would require paying Costar to retool, while with simply removing it it was presumably a firmware change or some such.

Also, neat fact, MX browns are more expensive than MX blues.

I'm following up the MX green question, we'll see if Costar offers MX greens, or if they don't offer them, or if they're PCB only, or if they're Cherry-only. Probably we'll just hear "it wasn't an offered option", but hopefully they'll now more.

[washuai]

But, I want to know the answers to all those questions . . although, until DAS as a tenkeyless silent, or removable numpad, I don't care.  Really, browns should not be called silent.  There are 'low-noise' boards that are quieter.

[wellington1869]

So they forwarded me to someone else in a higher position, guess I asked a bit more than they were used to. I'm not going to share all the info, but a few tidbits... They removed media key functionality because people complained about the loss of the left Win key (established) and didn't implement it in a different way because it would require paying Costar to retool, while with simply removing it it was presumably a firmware change or some such.

Also, neat fact, MX browns are more expensive than MX blues.

once again, i feel respect for the das folks. I dont know any other vendor who's given serious answers to a GH technical interrogation (right down to justifying their design choices to us) in this way. Oh we've asked before, I dont think we've ever seen cooperation like this. Phaedrus' list of questions was pretty intimidating too. Most any other company would have put him on hold indefinitely, if they didnt tell him to get lost outright.  Credit where its due, good for them to take our questions seriously and give answers about design choices and costs and materials that they're under no obligation to give.

[spolia optima]

once again, i feel respect for the das folks. I dont know any other vendor who's given serious answers to a GH technical interrogation (right down to justifying their design choices to us) in this way. Oh we've asked before, I dont think we've ever seen cooperation like this. Phaedrus' list of questions was pretty intimidating too. Most any other company would have put him on hold indefinitely, if they didnt tell him to get lost outright.  Credit where its due, good for them to take our questions seriously and give answers about design choices and costs and materials that they're under no obligation to give.

++

[gr1m]

I'm not going to share all the info, but a few tidbits...

hai im so important dat i have to pretend that i have special info and then not give it to show that im cool and carefree

[Phaedrus2129]

hai im so important dat i have to pretend that i have special info and then not give it to show that im cool and carefree

[TexasFlood]

Something weird is going on at the Das Site.

I get this when I pull up the products.

I didn't see anything strange just now.  Did you try that code?

[TexasFlood]

Didn't try it.  

What's weird is it exactly matches the Education Discount.

Some discount.

Maybe it's the same coupon?  I saw a quote from "Erin" of Metadot that stated "We offer an educational discount of 24%. This takes into consideration the discount plus $10 for ground shipping. Our system does not allow us to manually adjust shipping costs, so we have to factor it into the discount.".

[muchadoaboutnothing]

You know that the Cherry Brown price difference is probably due to Metadot/Costar buying them in much lower volumes than the Cherry Blues.

Costar does the Filco boards too, right? As of May of last year majestouch was saying that "For the most part, blue Cherry switch based boards are not a standard item".

Who knows how things have changed by now, but it seems to me that the blue switches weren't being ordered in high volume at that time. Was there a substantial price difference?

So far I am not impressed with the "helpful revealing inside edition info" Metadot has given us.  Why didn't they do a bit of market research BEFORE sticking a FCN key right where the most used Windows/Mac/Meta key was??

Modifying the base PCB design to add an extra key is expensive, correct? The lazy but cheap route would be to make one of the keys as an function key.

Not the ideal route, but the one they tried.

I'll start being impressed if they make it through all 10 questions.

Phaedrus2129 said "I'm not going to share all the info" so we have no idea if all ten questions were answered or not.

[itlnstln]

Costar does the Filco boards too, right? As of May of last year majestouch was saying that "For the most part, blue Cherry switch based boards are not a standard item".

Who knows how things have changed by now, but it seems to me that the blue switches weren't being ordered in high volume at that time. Was there a substantial price difference?

There might be something around how Filco started with brown Cherries and later used blues.  Thus, they started with a higher priced item and then made the lower cost one.  That said, the blue Cherry Filcos started out as a limited edition, and are now a more regular item because of US/European sales through Elitekeyboards.  If brown Cherrys are more expensive, then you might say that those that bought the blue Cherry Filcos were overcharged.  I would suggest, though, that the "limited" nature of the blue Cherry Filcos is a valid reason for them to be at the same price as the browns.

Personally, I think the "brown Cherrys are more expensive" argument is horse****.  You can't tell me that a switch with a one-piece stem is more expensive than a two-piece stem, nor can I imagine that there is so much more production/sales of the blues that they reduce manufacturing costs by that much (if they even sell more blues than browns at all).

[microsoft windows]

I hate all Das keyboards.

[ricercar]

Don't you hate everything born after 1984?

[ch_123]

Don't you hate everything born after 1984?

By that rationale, he hates himself.

[itlnstln]

Huh?

It's simple.  Look a Cherry MX distributor price list sometime.  You order more it costs less per unit.

That's the point.  Costar does the ordering, not Das.  Costar, based on what we see in retail, ships as many, if not more, Cherry brown-based keyboards than blue-based.  The logic makes no sense.  That is, if Das ordered as many "Silent" models as the others.  If not, then I can see where the cost per 'board is higher since the quantity of "Silent" models is less, but that has nothing to do with the price of the switch.

Geez, ripster, you're getting as bad at reading as I am.

[lmnop]

that promo code doesn't work.

[lmnop]

Bradley Kesner? how about Cornelius or Phineas McClintock lol

[Phaedrus2129]

They finish that spectroscopy analysis of metal plate materials yet?  :biggrin1:

Confidential.


I'm actually finishing up my review now, going to have it up before I go to bed.

[gr1m]

Confidential.


I'm actually finishing up my review now, going to have it up before I go to bed.

hai im 003 i hav confidenshul information dat da fermi wil make ati userz cry but i cant tel u it hehehehe

[Phaedrus2129]

hai im 003 i hav confidenshul information dat da fermi wil make ati userz cry but i cant tel u it hehehehe

Show Image

Confidential as in, they didn't tell me.

Which means they probably just don't know, they just trust Costar to make it.

I'm not that kind of noob, Gr1m.

[Phaedrus2129]

My review:
http://hardwareaware.com/review/das-professional-s/

[wellington1869]

My review:
http://hardwareaware.com/review/das-professional-s/

nice review. do you get a t-shirt? post a pic of the t-shirt, i'm curious

i like the review categories (dissection, lol). Those should be standard categories on the reviews here.