Author Topic: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?  (Read 6791 times)

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Offline el_murdoque

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5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« on: Sun, 19 April 2020, 08:44:03 »
Okay. I thought since I was born and raised with full size ISO-DE keyboards, I'd never quit that habit.
I just was not able to see the advantage of the smaller designs. My hands are big enough for XL gloves. My wingspan is enough so on a normal day my mouse will rest about 6 inches beside the num block, so I did never see the advantage of a TKL. I use all those keys frequently.
Enter the JJ40.

So if a TKL did not work out for me, and also 65 and 60% layouts did not do it, why not try a 40 ? And while I'm at it, why not give up staggered keys? and since they are sitting in neat rows, why not make every single one of them 1u ?
 
Could this be the polar opposite of a 104 key keyboard? I mean, all there is left is the qwerty layout, and even that is negotiable.

...And what can you say, it took a week of determined focus with firing up the QMK software twice a day whenever I ran into a problem because I could not use a specific key in the manner I wanted to. Muscle memory is adjusting slowly but steadily, and I manage to hit the z key on the first try more often than not. Apart from that I really am enjoying myself on that keyboard.
With one massive restriction: Gaming. WASD games often require multiple buttons apart from WASD and usually have YXCV mapped, just as 1234.
While technically possible to map the four rows to match that setup, it's not really feasible, because I would have to either sacrifice a button to make it a toggle between normal mode and gaming mode, which would still get me into problems with games that also require ctrl and alt.

All this got  me wondering whether or not a fifth row would make my life a lot easier. My SO will need to use the computer on occasion. Instead of plugging in another keyboard because 4x12 is a bit much for non trained people, she could learn to handle 5x12. I mean, all the keys she needs are there and labeled, not hidden somewhere in layer 4. Then, my gaming habits could be satisfied without the need of another keyboard.
Some things would be a lot simpler, having that 5th row with the numbers. Mapping the F keys, as well as mapping the num block.
I can see there could be a lot to gain and only very little to loose. As I said, I have big hands. I can easily reach up two rows from the home position without moving my wrists.

Which brings me to the questions:


<TL;DR> Has anyone compared ortholinear boards in 4x12 (Planck, JJ40) with their slightly bigger brethren in 5x12 (Preonic, JJ50) ? What have been your experiences?
Where can I get a 5x12? Preferably second hand and cheap, but I will buy new or even buy parts and solder myself. In Europe would be a big bonus.
</TL;DR>
 
 



Offline dusan

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 19 April 2020, 13:14:03 »
I have a TypeMatrix 2030 which is, roughly speaking, a 7x15 matrix. I can hit all alphanum rows without moving wrists. The bottom rows are a bit harder. (Contrary to most layouts, it has two bottom rows.) And I have small hands.

I never use a Planck/Preonic keyboard. But I used a 60% long ago. That time there were too few softwares and you can remember all keyboard shortcut. I still remember a few. Ctrl+S = left, Ctrl+D = right, Ctrl+K+B = mark start of block and Ctrl+K+K = mark end of block. But when you get used to an IBM  AT keyboard (the standard 104-key keyboard) you don't look back.

That said, it's not matter of hand size. It's personal preference.
Topre Type Heaven | Filco Majestouch w/MX blue | CM Storm QF w/MX green | Asus Echelon w/MX black | Razer Tournament 2014 w/Razer green, Keychron K1 w/Gateron LP red | TypeMatrix 2030 | custom 6x16 ortho w/Matias clicky | Atreus w/Kailh box white & Gateron Pro yellow.

Offline Lanrefni

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 19 April 2020, 13:44:38 »
From Keeb.io- JNAO,also Nyquist and Viterbi,or go real big with the BFO-9000,the latter 3 are all split boards but they can be mounted side by side in a single plate to form a single board.

Offline gipetto

  • Posts: 91
Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 19 April 2020, 14:51:03 »
I made this plaid style 5x12 from scratch, hard to get cheaper. gerbers and qmk files here:
https://github.com/itsnoteasy/misc/blob/master/ortho5by12.zip

Offline el_murdoque

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 20 April 2020, 04:51:01 »
From Keeb.io- JNAO,also Nyquist and Viterbi,or go real big with the BFO-9000,the latter 3 are all split boards but they can be mounted side by side in a single plate to form a single board.

I somehow don't really like the idea of mounting two PCB's into one housing, plus I feel that at this moment I'm quite fixed on a 5x12 layout, but thank you for those links - some of these pages were not known to me.


I have a TypeMatrix 2030 which is, roughly speaking, a 7x15 matrix. I can hit all alphanum rows without moving wrists. The bottom rows are a bit harder. (Contrary to most layouts, it has two bottom rows.) And I have small hands.

I never use a Planck/Preonic keyboard. But I used a 60% long ago. That time there were too few softwares and you can remember all keyboard shortcut. I still remember a few. Ctrl+S = left, Ctrl+D = right, Ctrl+K+B = mark start of block and Ctrl+K+K = mark end of block. But when you get used to an IBM  AT keyboard (the standard 104-key keyboard) you don't look back.

That said, it's not matter of hand size. It's personal preference.

The type matrix obviously has had a lot of pondering poured into before concept became reality. The big downside IMO is those laptop switches that I hate so much.


I made this plaid style 5x12 from scratch, hard to get cheaper. gerbers and qmk files here:
https://github.com/itsnoteasy/misc/blob/master/ortho5by12.zip

This seems a bit beyond my capabilities, but add a halfway decent housing and it is the board I'm looking for.


I've never ordered keyboard parts directly from the far east, but I did find the JJ50 on Ali Express.
Could any of the veterans have a look at this PCB
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32848915277.html
plus this housing
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957204924.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000023.6.21563bcdRMUrCr

... am I right to assume that I will need these two items and 60 switches plus keycaps of my choice and once these are soldered in, I do have a keyboard? Do I need something else apart from soldering equipment and a screwdriver?
Is there a way to figure out if that PCB runs qmk ?



Offline gipetto

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 20 April 2020, 08:27:44 »
it does run qmk

https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/jj50

I have to warn you that the jj50 uses software usb(vusb), which is not as reliable as hardware usb. for that reason i'd recommend the jnao in the jj50 case. My build also uses vusb and i sometimes have to flash the ic manually to change the keymap instead of over usb.

>am I right to assume that I will need these two items and 60 switches plus keycaps of my choice and once these are soldered in, I do have a keyboard?
yes.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 April 2020, 08:29:37 by gipetto »

Offline el_murdoque

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 20 April 2020, 09:19:21 »
it does run qmk

https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/tree/master/keyboards/jj50

I have to warn you that the jj50 uses software usb(vusb), which is not as reliable as hardware usb. for that reason i'd recommend the jnao in the jj50 case. My build also uses vusb and i sometimes have to flash the ic manually to change the keymap instead of over usb.

>am I right to assume that I will need these two items and 60 switches plus keycaps of my choice and once these are soldered in, I do have a keyboard?
yes.

Okay, thanks for the heads up!


Offline gipetto

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 20 April 2020, 12:21:24 »
sorry, but  i gave you bad advice about mixing and matching pcbs and cases. see here. then there could be issues like usb hole location. https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/9ll5o2/preonic_pcb_compatible_with_jj50_case/

Offline el_murdoque

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 21 April 2020, 10:30:27 »
your vile transgression shall be forgiven.

Is the JJ50 more or less a JJ40 with an extra row?
I do own the JJ40 board and can't really complain. I only have two issues: The LED underglow can not be switched off when the pc is hibernating and most of the time, I can't wake it up by pressing space.
These are minor issues for me.

Offline gipetto

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 21 April 2020, 19:11:00 »
it has the same atmega32a mcu and the flags in rules.mk are the same so it should behave the same.
here's a flag in that qmk file you could play with NO_SUSPEND_POWER_DOWN = yes. I've never owned one though, just made my first ortho a week ago. vusb has some limitations so it's not surprising you had issues.

Offline el_murdoque

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 22 April 2020, 05:07:03 »
With a bit of luck, my initial plan might work out. I was looking to buy a second hand one off of a person that tried ortholinear and failed, but had to realise that these things are quite rare to begin with, so my chances of finding one that is exactly 5x12 and has switches I like were pretty slim. 
However, the universe provided and possibility has just cropped up,
a Massdrop Preonic with switches I've been wanting to try for ages, apparently only a week old. I'll see how that turns out before I go ahead and get the JJ50 or JNAO.

 

This might sound stupid, but how do I manipulate the qmk file?
All I ever did was go to the qmk website, load my JSON file, generate a .hex file, download that and flash my keyboard with the qmk toolbox. I use windows for that, because the setup of qmk on my Ubuntu system just freezes and I was too lazy to figure out why. I initially thought that I might flash the keyboard two or three times and then I'll be set forever, so I figured it's not worth the hassle.

Offline gipetto

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 22 April 2020, 10:07:26 »
I followed an old cli guide on the qmk site that is no longer there, I haven't updated the repo in ages because i have a few customs and it would take a while to back them up.
https://docs.qmk.fm/#/newbs the new one is way better though, it has extra features like putting the bootloader in the hex and fixing bugs.

Offline el_murdoque

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 26 April 2020, 17:05:11 »

I just realised that qmk -setup did in fact not crash on my machine, it just took ages to report back with something. Now it returned. With problems. But this can be fixed, since I have actual error messages (and Google).

My initial problem has shifted to another one that is way more urgent. I have a Preonic v3 equipped with 67g purple zealios incoming  ;D
I need keycaps.
What does work on these boards?

Offline abstractkb

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 28 April 2020, 15:54:24 »
I have a JJ50 in the aluminum/glass case.  I like it and it works well, but I think it might be missing some ESD protection?  Sometimes I touch it and the LEDs change colors or shut off, one time they even broke but I replaced them.  Other than the LED reliability (for me at least), its a nice board, and a good way to get a cheap machined aluminum chassis.

Offline el_murdoque

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Re: 5x12 ortholinear keyboards?
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 03 May 2020, 16:27:45 »
Thank you for that opinion.
I might end up ordering the JJ50 PCB and a case, just to be on the safe side.

Right now, I have the JJ40 and the Preonic side by side.
The JJ40 has black Gateron switches and the Preonic purple Zealios V2 67g switches.
I always thought that I was a big fan of tactile switches, but ATM I prefer the black Gaterons. The Zealios feel great when you press a single switch. A nice, pronounced tactile bump.
But  a whole keyboard full of them is somewhat challenging to my fingers. The two last keyboards I used for a longer period of time before I tried those ortholinear boards were a Wooting two (Flaretech linear switches) and a Logitech with Cherry MX browns. I might decide that I prefer another type of switch and selling the Preonic would provide the cash to get the JJ50, a case and enough decent swiches to load it, with money to spare.

I have yet to decide whether the somewhat minimal design of the Preonic with the luxury of the fifth row that gives me 12 more keys in every layer, so that I manage to get by with only two additional layers in active use is to be preferred over the raw and pure minimalism of the JJ40 where I need four layers to get by, but hardly ever move my hands away from the home position. Also the JJ40 has LED lighting in the back.
...but ATM I'm running the preonic with a frankensteined set of mismatched keycaps with a set of DSA profile caps in the mail (but from China, so it might take a while). It's unfair to test a board with a nice fitted set of keycaps against one where the R5 has a different profile...