when will they move the alt key to a corner?

[wellington1869]

two of the most seldom used keys -- the two alt keys -- take up such valuable space right next to either side of the spacebar. Those spaces are just crying out to be used for thumb-activated control keys.

we have keyboards coming out now that are either dispensing with scrolllock and pause and etc, or moving them under Fn key layers. When will we see the alt keys similarly demoted?  I'd rather see the two win keys (useful in win7) on either side of the spacebar.

AHK doesnt remap the alt keys gracefully. Alt keys have some kind of special priority under the windows subsystem, they behave irregularly when remapped in AHK under certain mapping situations. So AHK doesnt solve the problem entirely in this case.

And meanwhile one of the most used keys for the power user - control - is pushed to one of the least ergonomic spots possible, the lower left far corner.

I think its high time keyboard layouts left 1981. While we're at it, lets see home/end placed above left/right arrows (where today there's just empty space on most laptop inverted T's - why?! Two of the most useful spots, totally wasted with blank space on the inverted T).

/rant.

[vyshane]

That's one of the things that I miss when I use Windows or Linux desktop environments. In OS X, the command key is in that position.

[EverythingIBM]

two of the most seldom used keys -- the two alt keys -- take up such valuable space right next to either side of the spacebar. Those spaces are just crying out to be used for thumb-activated control keys.

we have keyboards coming out now that are either dispensing with scrolllock and pause and etc, or moving them under Fn key layers. When will we see the alt keys similarly demoted?  I'd rather see the two win keys (useful in win7) on either side of the spacebar.

AHK doesnt remap the alt keys gracefully. Alt keys have some kind of special priority under the windows subsystem, they behave irregularly when remapped in AHK under certain mapping situations. So AHK doesnt solve the problem entirely in this case.

And meanwhile one of the most used keys for the power user - control - is pushed to one of the least ergonomic spots possible, the lower left far corner.

I think its high time keyboard layouts left 1981. While we're at it, lets see home/end placed above left/right arrows (where today there's just empty space on most laptop inverted T's - why?! Two of the most useful spots, totally wasted with blank space on the inverted T).

/rant.

I like that gap above the arrow keys. Windows keys? Who needs them. Not everyone runs windows, mrA500 runs BeOS, ch_123 runs linux and MW runs windows 3.1.

And I just find the windows keys annoying. Especially with games. Hit it so many times on my custom built computer with warcraft 3.

[wellington1869]

I like that gap above the arrow keys. Windows keys? Who needs them. Not everyone runs windows, mrA500 runs BeOS, ch_123 runs linux and MW runs windows 3.1.

And I just find the windows keys annoying. Especially with games. Hit it so many times on my custom built computer with warcraft 3.

well you can always map or disable the win keys with autohotkey. The alt keys are a special problem, they cant be gracefully remapped. Thats why even win keys would be better than alt keys in that location.

Why do you like the gap above the arrow keys?! I always thought it was key-shaped space - wasted!

[DreymaR]

Keep in mind that we who write more advanced than the run-of-the-mill US keyboardist really really need the Alt key on the right! Otherwise, I couldn't well write the þ and ð letters to my Icelandic friends, the üäö/éáí/àèò/ôâ etc etc I need for other Europeans and all that other stuff - even my own å and æ! - without resorting to lame Insert modes (which won't work in all apps anyway). So please leave that one as it is, and while we're at it the space bar is sometimes way too long so it pushes the right AltGr key out where it's too inaccessible!

The Left Alt has proven more and more useful to me as well, as I've developed better typing habits due to the Extend mode in Portable Keyboard Layout. Using hotkeys a lot leads to using hotkeys even more, and nowadays I'll much rather tap the Alt key to access menus than reach for the mouse! And Alt-Tabbing is frequently in use as well.

No, I think the Alt keys are mostly fine. I do agree that the Ctrl keys are in more frequent use and some people might want to switch those around.

If you do want a stronger remapping solution than what AHK provides (to those who can't code well), consider registry remapping. On your own computer at least, you can really tell Windows which key is which at the deepest level the system will see (I believe). It can be done on a per-user basis (HKEY_CURRENT_USER instead of HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE) if, e.g., your family/mates doesn't share your views.

Example: My own ergonomic ISO remaps with annotations. If you can't figure out what I'm doing there, ask.

Code: [Select]

REGEDIT4

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Keyboard Layout]
; - The below mappings can be selected by removing and adding ';' as desired. They are layout independent (QWERTY/Colemak/what-have-you).
; - The next lines map the Wide-ISO '1a1b' ergonomic mod (if using Colemak, the new right-hand half-rows are ]JLUY;lbr \HNEIO' /KM,. )
;     including the WristAngle-ISO mod ('ZXCVB_ <- _ZXCVB', where '_' is the VK_102 key) for the left wrist
; - If you want ONLY the Wide mod, delete the &quot;2c,00,56,00&quot; etc line and subtract 6 from the entry # (e.g., 20 -> 1a on the first line)
; - If you want ONLY the Angle mod, delete all but the &quot;2c,00,56,00&quot; etc line and change the entry # to 07 (= 6 + 1)
; - The &quot;0c,00,0d,00&quot; line remaps the number row to =7890- . If undesired, remove it and subtract 6 from the entry #.
&quot;Scancode Map&quot;=hex:00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,20,00,00,00,\
  0c,00,0d,00,0b,00,0c,00,0a,00,0b,00,09,00,0a,00,08,00,09,00,0d,00,08,00,\
  1a,00,1b,00,19,00,1a,00,18,00,19,00,17,00,18,00,16,00,17,00,15,00,16,00,1b,00,15,00,\
  28,00,2b,00,27,00,28,00,26,00,27,00,25,00,26,00,24,00,25,00,23,00,24,00,2b,00,23,00,\
  2c,00,56,00,2d,00,2c,00,2e,00,2d,00,2f,00,2e,00,30,00,2f,00,56,00,30,00,\
  34,00,35,00,33,00,34,00,32,00,33,00,31,00,32,00,35,00,31,00,\
  00,00,00,00
; - The next lines map the Wide-ISO '351b' ergonomic mod (using Colemak, the new right-hand half-rows are =7890- lbrJLUY;/ ]HNEIO' \KM,. )
; - In this mod, the brackets are kept together in the middle, and the /? key put on the old ] key for intuitive accessibility.
; - If you desire the '2b1b' mod (more similar to the Wide-ANSI mod), swap the 35 on row 3 and the 2b on row 6 around.
;&quot;Scancode Map&quot;=hex:00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,20,00,00,00,\
;  0c,00,0d,00,0b,00,0c,00,0a,00,0b,00,09,00,0a,00,08,00,09,00,0d,00,08,00,\
;  35,00,1b,00,19,00,1a,00,18,00,19,00,17,00,18,00,16,00,17,00,15,00,16,00,1a,00,15,00,\
;  28,00,2b,00,27,00,28,00,26,00,27,00,25,00,26,00,24,00,25,00,23,00,24,00,1b,00,23,00,\
;  2c,00,56,00,2d,00,2c,00,2e,00,2d,00,2f,00,2e,00,30,00,2f,00,56,00,30,00,\
;  34,00,35,00,33,00,34,00,32,00,33,00,31,00,32,00,2b,00,31,00,\
;  00,00,00,00
; - The next line removes and deletes the LOCAL_MACHINE mappings if you want to clean up and revert to an unmapped state
;&quot;Scancode Map&quot;=-

[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Keyboard Layout]
; - The CURRENT_USER mappings are for the logged-on user only (they will be stored for this user on logout)
; - If per-user mappings are preferable, move the mappings down here and deactivate or remove the '=-' line below
; - Be aware that if using BOTH LOCAL_MACHINE and CURRENT_USER mappings, the user mappings take precedence
&quot;Scancode Map&quot;=-


; - Numbers are LittleEndian (0x12345678 -> 78,56,34,12); below is an illustration of their meanings:
; ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Bytes       Meaning
; ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; 00 00 00 00 Version info (usually zero)
; 00 00 00 00 Flags (usually zero)
; 07 00 00 00 # of entries (# of mappings +1 for the terminator)
; 2c 00 56 00 The VK_102(0056) key now sends a 'z'(002c) code
; 2d 00 2c 00 The 'z'(002c) key now sends a 'x'(002d) code
; 2e 00 2d 00 The 'x'(002d) key now sends a 'c'(002e) code
; 2f 00 2e 00 The 'c'(002e) key now sends a 'v'(002f) code
; 30 00 2f 00 The 'v'(002f) key now sends a 'b'(0030) code
; 56 00 30 00 The 'b'(0030) key now sends a VK_102(0056) code
; 00 00 00 00 Null terminator (always zero)

[hyperlinked]

two of the most seldom used keys -- the two alt keys -- take up such valuable space right next to either side of the spacebar. Those spaces are just crying out to be used for thumb-activated control keys.

I wonder about this myself. I'm always surprised when people diss the Mac keyboards for having the command key there because that is the main modifier key on a Mac and I find it way way way easier to use it in key combos than the control key. My control keys are always remapped to the caps lock. I do enough command line stuff that it's a huge annoyance to have to find the control key hiding in the corner all the time.

I think it was ironcoder who said that he uses his thumb to hold down the control key and has been doing so for years. I can see people doing this, but he must have iron thumbs in addition to iron code because my thumbs would be so stiff from arthritis that I'd look like an action figure of the Fonz from Happy Days.

The Alt/Cmd key should be moved even further toward the middle to be truly ergonomic. I had a Microsoft Split Ergo keyboard for a while. I had some problems with the keyboard that led me to return it eventually, but I was totally digging how they enlarged the alt/cmd key so that it could be held down  without any unnatural thumb motions.

[gr1m]

I like left Alt because it's a good prone button in FPSs.

[ch_123]

The Alt key 'seldom used'? Wtf is this ****?

[itlnstln]

I like Ctrl in the corner since I can press it with my pinky.  Trying to press Alt with my thumb is awkward; I wouldn't want Ctrl in that position.  I do use Ctrl a lot more than Alt, but I take it you don't use Alt+tab a whole lot, Welly?

[Findecanor]

I suppose that what wellington1869 really wants is a Apple Macintosh-style command key in Windows. In Windows, the Ctrl key has the same role as the Command key on Macintosh, but the Command key's position on an Apple keyboard is the same as the position of the Alt key on a PC keyboard.

I use the left Alt key for two things: Alt-Tab to change the active window, and Alt-F1..Alt-F4 to change the active workspace. I use these key mappings both in Linux/X and in MacOS.
I map Ctrl to be to the left of 'A', to the lower left corner and to the lower right corner ... and I find that I use each of them in conjunction with different keys.

[ch_123]

Really the command key does the work of both control and Alt. Control and Alt don't do an awful lot under OS X, although Alt is used for accented characters and things like the euro symbol.

[Half-Saint]

Nothing wrong with Alt keys. Let it be :-)

[Rajagra]

The Alt key should be put next to the F4 key! :rofl:

I agree the keys next to space are too valuable to waste on Alt. I remap one using KeyTweak. That works reliably. Works on Windows keys too, they cause all kinds of oddities if you try using AHK to remap them.

I only realised how potentially useful the keys next to space are when it was pointed out. But similarly the trick of using the heel of your hand to hit control makes the corner keys useful. Not for me, because I use a wrist rest and that destroys the method.

CORRECTION: Just had a great idea. If I slide my wrist rest to the right so its left edge lines up with the join of the left Ctrl and Win keys, not only can I hit the Ctrl key with the heel of my hand, it acts as an instant way of getting my hand back to the home position. I think I just made a wonderful invention, the "Shortie Wrist Rest". I need to make one that works the same on the right as well. I.e. it needs to run the length of the 'A' to ';' span, 6.75 inches / 17.145 cm.

Like this:


Maybe "The Stubbie" is a better name.

It's actually quite comfortable this way. Instead of resting the bony part of your wrist on the rest, the fleshy part of your thumb/palm rests on it. I think this idea works.

[wellington1869]

I suppose that what wellington1869 really wants is a Apple Macintosh-style command key in Windows. In Windows, the Ctrl key has the same role as the Command key on Macintosh, but the Command key's position on an Apple keyboard is the same as the position of the Alt key on a PC keyboard.

yes, that wouldnt be bad at all  Tho on my ibook I'm still constantly confusing the command and option keys with each other.


Dreymar, raj -- registry remapping/keytweak -- ya, its better than AHK especially for the alt keys (ahk is piss poor with alt keys) -- but I still sometimes get the "alt" signal coming thru even with keytweak. (that is, I hit the alt key (remapped in keytweak as win key) and the menu bar pops up. Maybe thats my processor skipping a beat? Who knows. Its annoying sometimes though.

I'm about to try my keytweak/AHK script on win7 for the first time. I hope it works without modifications (doubt it).  
--in winXP, win+L seems to be one of those dedicated subsystem special combos with a super high priority for some reason. That combo is meant to log off the current user. Very annoying. My alt+L (with alt remapped to win) is my right cursor key ("hands never leave home row" mapping).  What this means is my right arrow has two chances to misfire: sometimes menu bar pops up; sometimes I get logged off!  I mean it works for the most part, but is annoying when it doesnt. I hope win+L has a different priority under Win7.

--from what i read on ahk forums, volume/media key mappings are all different in win7. Will probably have to redo those.

--hope keytweak works under win7!

[wellington1869]

I like Ctrl in the corner since I can press it with my pinky.  Trying to press Alt with my thumb is awkward; I wouldn't want Ctrl in that position.  I do use Ctrl a lot more than Alt, but I take it you don't use Alt+tab a whole lot, Welly?

I agree that alt-tab is the /only/ useful thing about alt -- but then do we really need what is in effect a 'dedicated window switching' button (two of them!) right next to the spacebar?  That function could (should!) easily be reassigned to win+tab with the win keys replacing alt keys!

(My window switcher is win+a, in ahk (which means alt+a since i (imperfectly) swap my alt and win keys in keytweak))

Control key with pinky? Geez you must cut your nails or something I was never one for good grooming. My pinky just slides all over the place cuz my nail hits the key top first
(And i'm not graceful enough to use heel-of-hand to hit control like Raj I'd be thwacking half of the keys on the left side if I tried that

[wellington1869]

The Alt key should be put next to the F4 key! :rofl:

I agree the keys next to space are too valuable to waste on Alt. I remap one using KeyTweak. That works reliably. Works on Windows keys too, they cause all kinds of oddities if you try using AHK to remap them.

I only realised how potentially useful the keys next to space are when it was pointed out. But similarly the trick of using the heel of your hand to hit control makes the corner keys useful. Not for me, because I use a wrist rest and that destroys the method.

CORRECTION: Just had a great idea. If I slide my wrist rest to the right so its left edge lines up with the join of the left Ctrl and Win keys, not only can I hit the Ctrl key with the heel of my hand, it acts as an instant way of getting my hand back to the home position. I think I just made a wonderful invention, the "Shortie Wrist Rest". I need to make one that works the same on the right as well. I.e. it needs to run the length of the 'A' to ';' span, 6.75 inches / 17.145 cm.

Like this:


Maybe "The Stubbie" is a better name.

It's actually quite comfortable this way. Instead of resting the bony part of your wrist on the rest, the fleshy part of your thumb/palm rests on it. I think this idea works.

another brainstorm:  
1. buy this thing:


2. assign it to control key.

3. to hit control key, stomp it, thwack it, sit on it, bash it - ergonomic problem solved  Use entire palm of hand

USB foot switches are highly underutilized in the computing world. Its about time we utilized our feet while typing!  Piano players do it, car drivers do it, seamstresses do it.

[1839cc]

I haven't had any issues with my alt key mapings in AHK. They are not too extensive though because I frequently use alt in it's unaltered state too.

I like alt keys and want them to stay where they are.

[wellington1869]

I haven't had any issues with my alt key mapings in AHK. They are not too extensive though because I frequently use alt in it's unaltered state too.

I use remapped alt for cursor control so I use them constantly. I esp see problem when i keep it held down to move cursor quickly. I asked about this on ahk forums quite a bit. The general consensus was that a) alt key is special; b) my processor may be too slow.  Apparently others with faster processors than mine saw fewer (or no) problems. So it might be just processor related. (In which case maybe my new core2duo tablet with win7 wont see the problem as often). Still, there's no other key that gives me that special problem.

[wellington1869]

I have a dream. I dream that one day I'd take my alt keys to a large country estate in England. There, I'd give them to the groundskeeper. I'd don riding boots, and I'd find a horse in the vast stables, and then go riding with him into the manicured estate. Then I'd take out a shotgun. The groundskeeper would go to that machine that flings ceramic disks and will place the alt keys in it. Then I'll yell out, "Pull!"  

Its always at this point that I wake up in a cold sweat, sigh lightly, rollover and go back to sleep.

[1839cc]

I use them for the same. I've got it working on a 3.2 Ghz Celeron running XP Home SP2.

Here, I attached my primitive script. I just tried AHK for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I developed this using the ancient technique of help file guided trial and error.

[Rajagra]

I have a dream. I dream that one day I'd take my alt keys to a large country estate in England. There, I'd give them to the groundskeeper. I'd don riding boots, and I'd find a horse in the vast stables, and then go riding with him into the manicured estate. Then I'd take out a shotgun. The groundskeeper would go to that machine that flings ceramic disks and will place the alt keys in it. Then I'll yell out, "Pull!"  

Its always at this point that I wake up in a cold sweat, sigh lightly, rollover and go back to sleep.

May as well do the job properly...

[wellington1869]

lol

[DreymaR]

Right. If you really believe that Alt-Tab is the /only/ useful thing about Alt, then you sir, are somewhat stunted.

[wellington1869]

Right. If you really believe that Alt-Tab is the /only/ useful thing about Alt, then you sir, are somewhat stunted.

my pure hatred for the alt key stunted my growth and emotional development, its true.

[DreymaR]

Right. Welly vs. angry man, 1-0. Good riposte.

[quadibloc]

The AltGr key (that is, the right-hand Alt key) is certainly vital for non-US keyboard users. Whether one uses the regular Alt key a lot depends on what programs one uses.

If I were designing the PC from scratch, I would have two AltGr keys where the Alt key is now, even for the U.S. keyboard, and the current Alt key, since it has the same function as the CODE key on a Displaywriter, would replace a chunk of the spacebar on the left, just like on a Displaywriter, to be consistent with existing IBM standards.

And then when Microsoft felt the need for a Windows key? Press both AltGr keys down simultaneously to toggle between the AltGr function and the Windows key function. Or use Alt-Scroll Lock or something. (Oh, no, you can't do that, because Scroll Lock is inherently shifted, otherwise it would be the asterisk on the numeric keypad. Unless you use Scan Code Set 3; which, of course, one would if I had designed the PC from scratch.)