Author Topic: Unicomp Keyboard quality?  (Read 4033 times)

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Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 14:00:24 »
... Still, the Unicomp has a key feel that's really second to none. It's like this tactile, buttery feel that honestly gives me pause.

Unicomp membrane buckling springs feel smoother than the descendants of the Alps gods? I haven't felt a Unicomp, or Matias, but I wouldn't describe any of my IBM Model Ms as particularly smooth, and every Alps switch that's in good condition that I have felt is like glass.

How the mighty have fallen.

My experience with Unicomp customer support has only been positive, but that was only over them accidentally not including one of my two Geekhack keys.

I consider the Matias switches to be a better keyfeel, and significantly smoother. But, a brand new Unicomp does have a smoothness to it that my Model Ms actually don't have. It feels like, uhhh...refrigerated butter. I've got a NOS M122 that just got delivered and I'll open it up soon and tell you if it feels the same.

Also, Unicomp customer service has been fantastic to me. I don't consider their customer support an issue, and MJMusicGuy is the only person from whom I've heard it, and I think that one might be partially on him. No offense.


I will say, I have an old silver badge industrial grey Model M from 1985 that feels smoother and better than any Model M I've ever tried.

My earliest is probably something like an 86, silver badge, lacking the lock lights as it was meant for XT systems. I would have to check. I don't recall it feeling any smoother than the others, though I don't think I even own any from the 90s.

Have you got a relatively recent Unicomp for comparison?

I do. I bought one last year. Typing side by side, the '85 feels buttery smooth, sharper and has a nice an crisp click. The unicomp feels slightly scratchy, and a little bit more rattly/looser.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 14:24:02 »
Quote from: Maledicted
I will say, I have an old silver badge industrial grey Model M from 1985 that feels smoother and better than any Model M I've ever tried.

My earliest is probably something like an 86, silver badge, lacking the lock lights as it was meant for XT systems. I would have to check. I don't recall it feeling any smoother than the others, though I don't think I even own any from the 90s.

Have you got a relatively recent Unicomp for comparison?

I do. I bought one last year. Typing side by side, the '85 feels buttery smooth, sharper and has a nice an crisp click. The unicomp feels slightly scratchy, and a little bit more rattly/looser.

Maybe wear is a factor in all of this? I imagine an industrial model would be the most likely to have seen some heavy use. What about other IBM Model Ms you may have?
« Last Edit: Thu, 21 May 2020, 14:52:09 by Maledicted »

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 14:43:59 »
I will say, I have an old silver badge industrial grey Model M from 1985 that feels smoother and better than any Model M I've ever tried.

My earliest is probably something like an 86, silver badge, lacking the lock lights as it was meant for XT systems. I would have to check. I don't recall it feeling any smoother than the others, though I don't think I even own any from the 90s.

Have you got a relatively recent Unicomp for comparison?

I do. I bought one last year. Typing side by side, the '85 feels buttery smooth, sharper and has a nice an crisp click. The unicomp feels slightly scratchy, and a little bit more rattly/looser.
[/quote]

Maybe wear is a factor in all of this? I imagine an industrial model would be the most likely to have seen some heavy use. What about other IBM Model Ms you may have?
[/quote]

I have a round badge from '86 and a square badge 122 from '87. They both feel pretty crisp but slightly scratchy compared to the '85. The 122 is slightly scratchier than the oval badge but not as bad as the Unicomp (bad is relative here). I think it could be due to dust and grime. I rescued it from a recycle center in Nashville and it looked like it had been used in an autoshop for 30 years. I did wash everything the best I could. Who knows.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 21 May 2020, 15:04:44 »
Quote from: Maledicted
Quote from: ddrfraser1
I will say, I have an old silver badge industrial grey Model M from 1985 that feels smoother and better than any Model M I've ever tried.

My earliest is probably something like an 86, silver badge, lacking the lock lights as it was meant for XT systems. I would have to check. I don't recall it feeling any smoother than the others, though I don't think I even own any from the 90s.

Have you got a relatively recent Unicomp for comparison?

I do. I bought one last year. Typing side by side, the '85 feels buttery smooth, sharper and has a nice an crisp click. The unicomp feels slightly scratchy, and a little bit more rattly/looser.

Maybe wear is a factor in all of this? I imagine an industrial model would be the most likely to have seen some heavy use. What about other IBM Model Ms you may have?

I have a round badge from '86 and a square badge 122 from '87. They both feel pretty crisp but slightly scratchy compared to the '85. The 122 is slightly scratchier than the oval badge but not as bad as the Unicomp (bad is relative here). I think it could be due to dust and grime. I rescued it from a recycle center in Nashville and it looked like it had been used in an autoshop for 30 years. I did wash everything the best I could. Who knows.

First off, sorry for breaking the quote tags. I have hacked them back into at least being ok.

Could be. I had initially discarded the idea since the guy I got my first M from said he cleaned the thing thoroughly, and it sure looks like he did, but I don't think he ever took the plate sandwich apart as it has never been bolt modded. Another reason I figured this wasn't a factor is all 4 of my original Model F keyboards, regardless of condition (I have done literally nothing to them other than cosmetic external cleaning), feel like butter. All 4-ish of my 1980s Ms feel inconsistent and scratchy.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Offline knightjp

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 10:05:52 »
Hey there Model M conoisseurs. I just purchased an IBM Model M from Ebay.

Is this a proper Model M with buckling springs.. Because I have heard that during the last years of Model M production, they did away with the buckling springs for all rubber domes. I would like to make sure that I get a proper buckling spring keyboard.


Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #55 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 10:17:20 »
Hey there Model M conoisseurs. I just purchased an IBM Model M from Ebay.

Is this a proper Model M with buckling springs.. Because I have heard that during the last years of Model M production, they did away with the buckling springs for all rubber domes. I would like to make sure that I get a proper buckling spring keyboard.

Yep. You’ve got a winner. You can always double check by looking up that number in the deskthority wiki. 

Offline knightjp

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #56 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 10:39:30 »
Yep. You’ve got a winner. You can always double check by looking up that number in the deskthority wiki.
Awesome..  :thumb:
Thanks for the info.  :thumb:

I wanted to surprise my brother with one. Thought that he would appreciate an old IBM Model M experience. Not bad for 90 USD. With the shipping it come to 160 USD though. I guess it's still worth it.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #57 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 10:51:45 »
My experience is that Model Ms (including M2s) with rubber domes have part numbers starting with "7"
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline knightjp

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #58 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 14:55:27 »
My experience is that Model Ms (including M2s) with rubber domes have part numbers starting with "7"
Good to know. Thanks for the info.

Offline funkmon

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #59 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 15:45:30 »
Hey there Model M conoisseurs. I just purchased an IBM Model M from Ebay.

Is this a proper Model M with buckling springs.. Because I have heard that during the last years of Model M production, they did away with the buckling springs for all rubber domes. I would like to make sure that I get a proper buckling spring keyboard.

I don't know where you're getting your model M information from. Haha. Rubber domes were an option on a few Model Ms but they are exceptionally uncommon. You can use the deskthority wiki to check part numbers if you want to be sure.

Offline depletedvespene

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #60 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 17:13:35 »
Is this a proper Model M with buckling springs.. Because I have heard that during the last years of Model M production, they did away with the buckling springs for all rubber domes.

That's actually FALSE. I think that bit of hogwash started with Linus Sebastian's awfully researched video, where he made that exact claim.

Anyhoo, when it comes to Lexmark-era Model M keyboards, those with part numbers like 71G4644 are rubberdomes, while stuff like 42H1292 are buckling springs (this part number is the #2 in frequency, the most common one being, of course, 1391401).


And if a part number should be unassailable, it's as simple as pulling a keycap and inspecting:

Buckling spring:
243452-0


Rubber dome:
243454-1

Note the absence of a spring in the second image, and how the trunk of the stem isn't hollow.


Offline cheesy_jones

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #61 on: Mon, 25 May 2020, 18:30:02 »

Came here after watching this video.

 

Let's talk about this video a little.

First though, a disclaimer (that may actually have some relevance): I am only responding to this so I can type on my Unicomp (manufactured in late April of this year). So take this opinion as you will, although I freaking love typing on this keyboard. This keyboard is, for me, what the cool nerds call the "daily driver." (Is that, like, a car reference? I'm not cool, so I don't know.)

Anyway, the issue with the video being referenced is that the keyboard that he's reviewing was built in 2009 and seems to be from a period in Unicomp's history when the build quality of those boards apparently suffered some. Then again, he's comparing his board that was retailing at the time for, I believe, about $85, to the Model M keyboards that IBM was building in the 80s that was going for something in the inflation-adjusted neighborhood of about $350 or so.

I could go on and on, but suffice to say that many of the Youtube videos reviewing Unicomp keyboards seem to be authored by folks who are deeply enthusiastic for, and seem to have a fierce loyalty to, the old Model M keyboards.

Now, nothing against those old keyboards, but the fact is they have an inherent design flaw that feels pretty much like a stacked game of Russian roulette. Honestly, I'm not the person to talk about that; it's covered much better here (at around 9:45):
It seems to me like it's a you-pays-your-money-and-you-takes-your-chances kind of thing if you go shopping for one of those vintage boards.

That was my rationale. And amidst all this rambling I tend to do, let me be clear about one thing: Unicomp keyboards are great. They really are. I use mine every morning and then pull out my Matias most, but not all, afternoons.

Incidentally, Unicomp seems to be experimenting with the prices of their keyboards recently. Either they know what they have and demand is going up or they're suffering from the pandemic the way many businesses are and are trying to compensate.

Offline VP

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 02:14:28 »
Unicomp keyboards are great. They really are.
+1

Offline mokeyjoe

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #63 on: Tue, 26 May 2020, 22:19:10 »
Just picked up a Mac Unicomp keyboard from The Keyboard Company. Initially had a some problems with the keys not clicking correctly. Once I'd pulled off some of the keycaps and reseated the springs it typed fine.

The build quality is pretty good, certainly solid. None of the flex I've seen in some older Unicomp video reviews. Also the keycaps are all printed fine as well. My only real criticism is the really terrible, wobbly little plastic feet - but I don't tend to use them anyway.

Tbh BS are too heavy for me to type comfortably for very long due to RSI issues, but it'll be a fun keyboard to pull out once in a while when I need to get some writing done.

Offline VP

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #64 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 05:38:56 »
Initially had a some problems with the keys not clicking correctly. Once I'd pulled off some of the keycaps and reseated the springs it typed fine.
I just bought an Ultra Classic, dated on 4/27/2020. For the unpacked keyboard, one key didn't work quite well, removing the key and putting it in place correctly solved everything. I think, the design of buckling springs is sensitive to shaking, vibrations. It is possible that something is shifting somewhere in the keyboard during transportation.
The keyboard is solid, works very well. The quality of the keyboard body surfaces is not perfect, but they declare these keyboards to be handmade, it gives charm.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #65 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 09:18:25 »
Just picked up a Mac Unicomp keyboard from The Keyboard Company. Initially had a some problems with the keys not clicking correctly. Once I'd pulled off some of the keycaps and reseated the springs it typed fine.

The build quality is pretty good, certainly solid. None of the flex I've seen in some older Unicomp video reviews. Also the keycaps are all printed fine as well. My only real criticism is the really terrible, wobbly little plastic feet - but I don't tend to use them anyway.

Tbh BS are too heavy for me to type comfortably for very long due to RSI issues, but it'll be a fun keyboard to pull out once in a while when I need to get some writing done.

Membrane buckling spring is too stiff for a lot of people. I went back to Cherry MX blues when I first felt it. I didn't particularly like the feel any better either at the time. Capacitive buckling spring (Model Fs) should be light enough for just about anybody.

I think, the design of buckling springs is sensitive to shaking, vibrations. It is possible that something is shifting somewhere in the keyboard during transportation.

Yes, they are.

Offline mokeyjoe

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #66 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 13:17:04 »

Membrane buckling spring is too stiff for a lot of people. I went back to Cherry MX blues when I first felt it. I didn't particularly like the feel any better either at the time. Capacitive buckling spring (Model Fs) should be light enough for just about anybody.


Tbh even Cherry Blues are too heavy for me for hours at a time. I usually type on Gateron Reds if I have serious typing to done. I figured the BS would be too heavy, but when my hands are rested it's fine for bashing out a few emails or forum posts on, and more fun than the reds. The Unicomp was kind of the top end price-wise for an 'occasional' keyboard, I doubt I'd take the risk on a Model F.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 13:58:22 »

Membrane buckling spring is too stiff for a lot of people. I went back to Cherry MX blues when I first felt it. I didn't particularly like the feel any better either at the time. Capacitive buckling spring (Model Fs) should be light enough for just about anybody.


Tbh even Cherry Blues are too heavy for me for hours at a time. I usually type on Gateron Reds if I have serious typing to done. I figured the BS would be too heavy, but when my hands are rested it's fine for bashing out a few emails or forum posts on, and more fun than the reds. The Unicomp was kind of the top end price-wise for an 'occasional' keyboard, I doubt I'd take the risk on a Model F.

I just compared MX blues to capacitive buckling spring, and I do believe that capacitive buckling spring, at least on my new production F77 is actually lighter overall than MX blue. The tactility is, at least, definitely less pronounced. I do believe that my new F77 is a tad lighter than my originals though as well. I suppose you may just have to find one out in the wild to try, if you ever end up going to a meetup.

Offline mokeyjoe

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #68 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 19:03:29 »

Membrane buckling spring is too stiff for a lot of people. I went back to Cherry MX blues when I first felt it. I didn't particularly like the feel any better either at the time. Capacitive buckling spring (Model Fs) should be light enough for just about anybody.


Tbh even Cherry Blues are too heavy for me for hours at a time. I usually type on Gateron Reds if I have serious typing to done. I figured the BS would be too heavy, but when my hands are rested it's fine for bashing out a few emails or forum posts on, and more fun than the reds. The Unicomp was kind of the top end price-wise for an 'occasional' keyboard, I doubt I'd take the risk on a Model F.

I just compared MX blues to capacitive buckling spring, and I do believe that capacitive buckling spring, at least on my new production F77 is actually lighter overall than MX blue. The tactility is, at least, definitely less pronounced. I do believe that my new F77 is a tad lighter than my originals though as well. I suppose you may just have to find one out in the wild to try, if you ever end up going to a meetup.

That's really interesting, I'll have to give them a try some time, I probably wouldn't just chance for the prices Model Fs tend to go to. A meetup would be good, whenever such things get going again.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #69 on: Wed, 27 May 2020, 20:46:30 »

Membrane buckling spring is too stiff for a lot of people. I went back to Cherry MX blues when I first felt it. I didn't particularly like the feel any better either at the time. Capacitive buckling spring (Model Fs) should be light enough for just about anybody.


Tbh even Cherry Blues are too heavy for me for hours at a time. I usually type on Gateron Reds if I have serious typing to done. I figured the BS would be too heavy, but when my hands are rested it's fine for bashing out a few emails or forum posts on, and more fun than the reds. The Unicomp was kind of the top end price-wise for an 'occasional' keyboard, I doubt I'd take the risk on a Model F.

I just compared MX blues to capacitive buckling spring, and I do believe that capacitive buckling spring, at least on my new production F77 is actually lighter overall than MX blue. The tactility is, at least, definitely less pronounced. I do believe that my new F77 is a tad lighter than my originals though as well. I suppose you may just have to find one out in the wild to try, if you ever end up going to a meetup.

That's really interesting, I'll have to give them a try some time, I probably wouldn't just chance for the prices Model Fs tend to go to. A meetup would be good, whenever such things get going again.

If you ever can't resist, you can still find IBM Model F XTs for under $100 USD from time to time on Ebay as well. The layout is way too weird for most people for typing (including myself), but I imagine you wouldn't have a horribly hard time selling the thing again either since a lot of people seem to get the Model F bug from buying one. I know I did.

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #70 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 08:22:12 »
Yes. The model F typing experience is lighter than the M. I nabbed an AT for $180. It’s a more workable layout.

This makes me wonder though, is it possible to put light springs into bs keyboards? Or are they finely tuned to just work with stock springs? I do know that some people have modded Ms to use F springs and visa versa.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #71 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 12:13:52 »
Yes. The model F typing experience is lighter than the M. I nabbed an AT for $180. It’s a more workable layout.

This makes me wonder though, is it possible to put light springs into bs keyboards? Or are they finely tuned to just work with stock springs? I do know that some people have modded Ms to use F springs and visa versa.

$180 for a F AT is hard to beat right now. I got my first one for about $150, but it wasn't on Ebay, or any website associated specifically with keyboards.

I have wondered the same myself, especially because of the unique characteristics of the buckling spring mechanism, and how they may actually allow for a lot of customization.

This is mostly a guess, but a mostly educated one. If you think about the buckling spring mechanism, I can't imagine anything that would matter more in terms of proper function than the overall geometry of the springs. The length and width probably need to be very close to the same to remain properly seated the whole time, and to buckle consistently. I imagine there may at least be some leeway when it comes to the gauge of wire used and how many coils are jammed into that specific length. I'm no expert on springs, but I would think either of those could effect both the weighting of the spring and the point at which that spring buckles. Here's a cutaway gif I stole from the internet:



My speculation:

1) Decreasing coil count/increasing the gap between coils on its own may reduce spring weight, while simultaneously increasing the depth at which the spring buckles. Maybe this would cause the spring to be less ... predictable/controllable though?

2) Changing wire gauge on its own while maintaining the distance between coils should adjust weighting and may maintain the same actuation/buckling point.

3) Tweaking both in various ways may be necessary for the desired effect?
« Last Edit: Thu, 28 May 2020, 13:08:01 by Maledicted »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #72 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 12:46:24 »
I don't think you are going to improve the original situation much.
"I never understood wind. I know windmills very much, I have studied it better than anybody. I know it is very expensive. They are made in China and Germany mostly, very few made here, almost none, but they are manufactured, tremendous — if you are into this — tremendous fumes and gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything. You talk about the carbon footprint, fumes are spewing into the air, right spewing, whether it is China or Germany, is going into the air.
A windmill will kill many bald eagles. After a certain number, they make you turn the windmill off, that is true. By the way, they make you turn it off. And yet, if you killed one, they put you in jail. That is OK. But why is it OK for windmills to destroy the bird population?"
- Donald Trump - Turning Point USA speech – 2019-12-22

Offline funkmon

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #73 on: Thu, 28 May 2020, 19:44:15 »
I do happen to have an 86 board, and it doesn't feel smoother per se, but ever so slightly more solid, and a bit lighter. It's got a much pingier sound, which I somehow never noticed before. Compared to a brand new Unicomp, it's not quite as smooth, but it does feel better and by that I mean, it just has this slight feel of being a higher quality. I can't quite tell what it is. It might be the keycaps and the key wiggle. It's incredibly subtle. I do think brand new unicomps feel like butter compared to most Models M though.

Offline typo

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #74 on: Tue, 02 June 2020, 18:32:32 »
Well Like it or not. It is the closest you would get to a brand new IBM. So I do not see what the complaints even are? I would rejoice in the fact that it even exists. I think they did it proud overall. It is not like they completely bastardized the thing AFAIK. Indeed my real Model F compared to it is much nicer but please try to give it a break. This is 2020. The fact even made in USA is a miracle in and of itself IMO.

Offline cheesy_jones

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #75 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 08:15:54 »
Well Like it or not. It is the closest you would get to a brand new IBM. So I do not see what the complaints even are? I would rejoice in the fact that it even exists. I think they did it proud overall. It is not like they completely bastardized the thing AFAIK. Indeed my real Model F compared to it is much nicer but please try to give it a break. This is 2020. The fact even made in USA is a miracle in and of itself IMO.
I don't know how Unicomp sells the keyboards for as little as it does, given that workers have to make a living and live in Lexington, Kentucky. Probably not the highest cost of living down there, I mean, compared to, say Brooklyn, but higher than China, for now. It's simply remarkable.


Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #76 on: Sat, 06 June 2020, 09:22:51 »
Well Like it or not. It is the closest you would get to a brand new IBM. So I do not see what the complaints even are? I would rejoice in the fact that it even exists. I think they did it proud overall. It is not like they completely bastardized the thing AFAIK. Indeed my real Model F compared to it is much nicer but please try to give it a break. This is 2020. The fact even made in USA is a miracle in and of itself IMO.
I don't know how Unicomp sells the keyboards for as little as it does, given that workers have to make a living and live in Lexington, Kentucky. Probably not the highest cost of living down there, I mean, compared to, say Brooklyn, but higher than China, for now. It's simply remarkable.

Mass production and volume.
« Last Edit: Sat, 06 June 2020, 09:25:48 by ddrfraser1 »

Offline funkmon

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #77 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 00:18:28 »
Yeah but, like, Logitech is selling much worse keyboards made in China, with every single component made in China, for double the price even though the cost of living is much lower. Do you think Unicomp makes more keyboards than Logitech's $150+ keyboards? Maybe, but I'm not sure. I don't know enough about it to say anything confidently.

Offline ddrfraser1

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #78 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 09:27:56 »
Yeah but, like, Logitech is selling much worse keyboards made in China, with every single component made in China, for double the price even though the cost of living is much lower. Do you think Unicomp makes more keyboards than Logitech's $150+ keyboards? Maybe, but I'm not sure. I don't know enough about it to say anything confidently.

All that means is Logitech’s margins are better. They sell those things way above cost.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Unicomp Keyboard quality?
« Reply #79 on: Sun, 07 June 2020, 21:29:02 »
Yup. Apple products are made in China, sold for outrageous prices in terms of price/performance. I do imagine that Logitech profits better than Unicomp. They certainly sell a lot more peripherals than Unicomp does, and probably always will. I don't think that anything they make is crap. They make reliable, quality products. They're just not build to the same standards of a lot of us, that and Romer-G sucks if you ask me, at least going off of what I have on my tester.