And what about the GOOD membrane keyboards?

[SamSpade]

All of them are, like, total crap? There are none that can be saved? (And I'm not saying about the Janus-like topre, part membrane, part mechanical.) From my personal experience, I think that there are some costly MS membrane keyboards which are passable.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

Once you go M, you don't go back.  

Model M that is.

[keyb_gr]

All of them are, like, total crap? There are none that can be saved?

None.

But seriously, Logitech Classic 200s aren't too bad. Pretty good feel, last reasonably long unless you're ripster's son, rather decent build quality, and cheap to boot.

Otherwise you'll have to look in the early-mid '90s. NMB rubber domes are supposed to be very good (e.g. the Dell QuietKeys of the time), the BTCs with metal back aren't too bad either, IBM RapidAccess (?) boards (like KB-8923) seem to be quite decent too.

[wellington1869]

All of them are, like, total crap? There are none that can be saved? (And I'm not saying about the Janus-like topre, part membrane, part mechanical.) From my personal experience, I think that there are some costly MS membrane keyboards which are passable.

search forum for 'membrane', lots of good membrane board suggestions (and a few threads on the topic) were made in recent months.

[ch_123]

search forum for 'membrane', lots of good membrane board suggestions (and a few threads on the topic) were made in recent months.

I'm typing on a great membrane keyboard at the minute

[elbowglue]

But seriously, Logitech Classic 200s aren't too bad. Pretty good feel, last reasonably long unless you're ripster's son, rather decent build quality, and cheap to boot.

Seconded.

[Nonmouse]

Scissor switches are the best of the Rubber Domes.  Notice the Topre like dome shape and individual domes.

Innit that kinda what he was talking about here?

(And I'm not saying about the Janus-like topre, part membrane, part mechanical.)

[Forsaken]

Model M keyboards use a membrane. Shocking I know. The BS mechanism pushes down on membrane contact points in the end.

Topres do not, They have a pair of electrodes on a PCB under each key that facilitate the proximity detection of a metal spring inside each rubber dome. The spring increases the capacitance value across the electrodes when it is flattened down.

How is mechanical really defined anyways? All keyboards (besides touchscreens) have mechanical parts after all... *scratches chin*

[elbowglue]

IBM Model M's use a spring to create the tactility and click, and a dome to trigger the switch.

Topre's use a rubber dome to create the tactility and the snap, and a spring to trigger the switch.

Kind of makes you think.

[ch_123]

Model M keyboards use a membrane. Shocking I know. The BS mechanism pushes down on membrane contact points in the end.

Topres do not, They have a pair of electrodes on a PCB under each key that facilitate the proximity detection of a metal spring inside each rubber dome. The spring increases the capacitance value across the electrodes when it is flattened down.

How is mechanical really defined anyways? All keyboards (besides touchscreens) have mechanical parts after all... *scratches chin*

By our definition, mechanical = a keyswitch that uses a metal spring in it's design.

In reality, a mechanical keyboard is one that uses an electromechanical mechanism as opposed to electronic switches to register keys, such as typewriter conversion keyboards used in the 60s... But that's a story for another day.

[wellington1869]

technically they're all mechanical in the sense that they dont type themselves, have to hit the keys with your fingers.

technically we should call them "deliberate tactile or click mechanism" keyboards.  DTCM's.

[ch_123]

I like the IBM term "Snap action"

[wellington1869]

I like the IBM term "Snap action"

ibm was the balls until they became a generic service company. too bad they've dropped out of consumer hardware, they were so good at it. I still cant believe they sold off their thinkpad line.  Everyone loves the thinkpad. It classed up the windows laptop like nothing else could.

[Superfluous Parentheses]

Here's a vote for the Key Tronic ErgoForce/Designer.

I haven't gotten around to cleaning mine (and it needs a good cleaning) but from what I can tell the key feel is really quite good.

As for MS boards: the MS natural elite feels pretty nice but has annoyingly small cursor/function keys that are also not in a standard layout. The MS Natural 4000 is a step back compared to the Elite in all but layout. Neither will last very long.

[wellington1869]

seconding keytronics, really liked the 3600 I tried.
I'm on an MS 7000 right now, really like it. Both have plenty of feedback/smoothness/crispness and are neither too light nor too heavy in feel.
Neither is scissors btw, both are old fashioned membrane/domes.

[ch_123]

ibm was the balls until they became a generic service company. too bad they've dropped out of consumer hardware, they were so good at it. I still cant believe they sold off their thinkpad line.  Everyone loves the thinkpad. It classed up the windows laptop like nothing else could.

Did you know that each CPU in the IBM Z10 mainframe has redundant logic units, and if they fail, they switch to the backup ones, and send IBM and email telling them that they need to go out to the customer and replace the CPU, a process which, of course, can be done without affecting the system at all?

That's what IBM is about, not churning out Wintel pizza boxes that are going to be tossed out in 3-4 years when the next version of Windows comes out...

Lenovo has definitely dumbed the Thinkpad down (still the best laptop on the market though) and that's ****, but I don't think most sane people miss the overpriced, underfeatured desktops.

[wellington1869]

Did you know that each CPU in the IBM Z10 mainframe has redundant logic units, and if they fail, they switch to the backup ones, and send IBM and email telling them that they need to go out to the customer and replace the CPU, a process which, of course, can be done without affecting the system at all?

almost makes me wish the 1980's fears of an ibm-robot dominated future had come to pass. I think the world wouldve been better off. I bet if ibm had built an offshore oil rig, it wouldnt leak. seriously. Their internal processes were tremendous. They trained their own managers because even a harvard mba wasnt good enough for ibm. I know cuz my dad worked there and we were an ibm family in an ibm town in upstate ny.  Terrific processes and workflows they created internally, extremely professional and exacting standards and they only hired the best.

Its that business model of exactitude itself that we've lost in the current economic environment where if you dont churn out cheap pizza boxes you cant stay in business anymore.  Personally i think ibm should have upped its marketing rather than give in to the tide. The world needs an ibm or two. If apple can survive based on 80% marketing hype, ibm could have too (except they would actually deliver on their promises).

Lenovo has definitely dumbed the Thinkpad down (still the best laptop on the market though)

agreed. i just ordered one for my boss, after he suffered endlessly with a craptastic sony vaio. He's thrilled with the thinkpad -- even the run of the mill laptop is built to military grade survival specs (shock protection, temperature range, humidity, etc).  This one will last him a decade if he wants it.

but I don't think most sane people miss the overpriced, underfeatured desktops.

you're right, but its funny because it was the ibm desktop pc that launched the consumer pc market in the first place. (all those M keyboards we all grew up on). But they lost that desktop market very quickly somehow.

[wellington1869]

I think their biggest problem was not letting the marketplace know about how their products were different.  They had a huge lead in that -- on the question of perception -- and they blew it somehow.  I had friends at Anderson Consulting back in the 90s who used to say, you know, whenever a client needs hardware, we always only buy ibm hardware. Why?  Because if something goes wrong, we can always say, look, we bought an IBM -- so the problem lies elsewhere. It was a way to cover their ass because everyone knew ibm was the best and so no one would blame them.  

Its that kind of automatic perception of excellence that ibm had, going into the 90s. Yet by the end of the 90s they were on their knees. I know the market changed rapidly in the 90s, but it seems to me more a mistake of not marketing their best qualities aggressively.

[ch_123]

IBM's problem in the PC market was that it was a high end brand in a low end market. Build quality? Sure, that just makes it expensive. Customer service? That doesn't make it faster. IBM approached the market with the mainframe mentality, where build quality and attention to detail were essential for machines running businesses 24/7. However, given what PCs were designed for, and the low end of the market they were targeted at, quality was irrelevant - if it breaks, replace it. In this regard, selling PCs has more in common with selling microwaves than selling mainframes.

It pays to know your market - Apple found this out the hard way in the days where Jobs was at NeXT and they tried to make low-end Macs - Apple works off snob value, remove that, and they removed a key part of their selling model. In a somewhat similar way, IBM worked off offering quality and service at a high price. Such a tactic can't really be adapted to a market that does not really want quality, but wants low cost.

Yes, I compared IBM and Apple. I probably have only 5 minutes to live now =P

There was also bad management - earlier PCs were deliberately castrated to prevent competition with the System/3 minicomputer line. The PS/2, which could have advanced PCs by quite a bit was a failure because IBM used it as opportunity to give the finger to it's competitors, except it kinda exploded in their face. Like most of its contemporaries, they had no idea what the microchip and decentralized computing would do the market.

Really it just ended up with them selling standard computers and using their name/image to shift units. Some of the later IBM desktops were little different to what the competition had in terms of build quality. Perhaps it was better for their dignity that they didn't sell out like HP did. (and the likes of DEC did rather unsuccessfully.

[Rusty Rat]

I think their biggest problem was not letting the marketplace know about how their products were different.  They had a huge lead in that -- on the question of perception -- and they blew it somehow.  I had friends at Anderson Consulting back in the 90s who used to say, you know, whenever a client needs hardware, we always only buy ibm hardware. Why?  Because if something goes wrong, we can always say, look, we bought an IBM -- so the problem lies elsewhere. It was a way to cover their ass because everyone knew ibm was the best and so no one would blame them.

+100%

The old standard saying was that nobody got fired for buying IBM. Sure everything was over priced to buggery but you got a solution with a company that backed it up. At least nowadays Global Services still offers a turnkey solution.

Did you Dad wear his ‘years’ badge at work. I used to see the IBMers proudly wearing their 10, 15, 20 and 25 years badges in the workshops.

[TexasFlood]

+100%

The old standard saying was that nobody got fired for buying IBM. Sure everything was over priced to buggery but you got a solution with a company that backed it up. At least nowadays Global Services still offers a turnkey solution.

Did you Dad wear his ‘years’ badge at work. I used to see the IBMers proudly wearing their 10, 15, 20 and 25 years badges in the workshops.

The old timers are proud of the decent retirement plans they still have, and that they can retire before having their job moved outside the U.S..  Am I cynical?  Maybe.

[wellington1869]

+100%

The old standard saying was that nobody got fired for buying IBM.

Ya that was the exact phrasing my friends used

Did you Dad wear his ‘years’ badge at work. I used to see the IBMers proudly wearing their 10, 15, 20 and 25 years badges in the workshops.

I've seen those badges around Also even the engineers wore white shirts with ties.  Sounds frumpy today, but i think it really contributed to a sense of professionalism even as they slaved away in some windowless basement.

I also have a lovely collection of the old "THINK" memopads somewhere

The old timers are proud of the decent retirement plans they still have, and that they can retire before having their job moved outside the U.S..  Am I cynical?  Maybe.

seriously, it was like one of the last places where you could make a professional engineering career for a whole lifetime at one company.  They really took care of you in terms of advanced degrees and career advancement internally. They paid for my dad's ph.d and etc, gave him time off to go full time. Very rare to see that today. And it really resulted in very high employee loyalty and pride in their work. That was definitely the case with my dad and his work friends.

[TexasFlood]

I've seen those badges around Also even the engineers wore white shirts with ties.  Sounds frumpy today, but i think it really contributed to a sense of professionalism even as they slaved away in some windowless basement.

I knew a guy who used to work for IBM pulling big old mainframe bus & tag cables under the raised floor and had to wear a suit to do it!  Times have changed for sure.

I also have a lovely collection of the old "THINK" memopads somewhere

I'm jealous, I want one! (or two, or three...)

seriously, it was like one of the last places where you could make a professional engineering career for a whole lifetime at one company.  They really took care of you in terms of advanced degrees and career advancement internally. They paid for my dad's ph.d and etc, gave him time off to go full time. Very rare to see that today. And it really resulted in very high employee loyalty and pride in their work. That was definitely the case with my dad and his work friends.

Oh man have the times changed, pretty much all those benefits are gone, along with a heck of a lot of the jobs.

[InSanCen]

The only "fullsize" rubberdome I have ever liked would be the IBM Rapid Access boards. Not a patch on a Cherry black even, but very cheap and easy to pick up for a few £/$'s on fleabay. Scissor Switch boards are okay, but I bottom out hard on them, but bear in mind I have 15+ years on an M, and type like the boards attacking me, and I must kill it.

[EverythingIBM]

IBM's problem in the PC market was that it was a high end brand in a low end market. Build quality? Sure, that just makes it expensive. Customer service? That doesn't make it faster. IBM approached the market with the mainframe mentality, where build quality and attention to detail were essential for machines running businesses 24/7. However, given what PCs were designed for, and the low end of the market they were targeted at, quality was irrelevant - if it breaks, replace it. In this regard, selling PCs has more in common with selling microwaves than selling mainframes.

It pays to know your market - Apple found this out the hard way in the days where Jobs was at NeXT and they tried to make low-end Macs - Apple works off snob value, remove that, and they removed a key part of their selling model. In a somewhat similar way, IBM worked off offering quality and service at a high price. Such a tactic can't really be adapted to a market that does not really want quality, but wants low cost.

Yes, I compared IBM and Apple. I probably have only 5 minutes to live now =P

There was also bad management - earlier PCs were deliberately castrated to prevent competition with the System/3 minicomputer line. The PS/2, which could have advanced PCs by quite a bit was a failure because IBM used it as opportunity to give the finger to it's competitors, except it kinda exploded in their face. Like most of its contemporaries, they had no idea what the microchip and decentralized computing would do the market.

Really it just ended up with them selling standard computers and using their name/image to shift units. Some of the later IBM desktops were little different to what the competition had in terms of build quality. Perhaps it was better for their dignity that they didn't sell out like HP did. (and the likes of DEC did rather unsuccessfully.

For once I think I agree with the statement above. You can't win in a market where the competitors and customers all want the cheapest prices and don't care about quality. Lenovo made a mistake by buying the IBM PC division cause their profits will gradually decline into bankruptcy, and IBM made a mistake by selling it (according to Lou Gerstner's philosophy).
It may SEEM like IBM computers are standard things with an IBM logo pasted on, but the IBM design is there, and IBM still has drivers, diagrams, and all the support you'd ever need compared to cheap brands. Plus they seem very reliable, I haven't had any fail.

[ch_123]

The business computers of the likes of HP, and even Dell, are well built with screw-less design, and have good documentation and support. I used to have a Dell workstation when I was younger and it was a great machine. With the exception of motherboard size it didn't use any non standard parts.

[wellington1869]

IBM approached the market with the mainframe mentality

ya, qft

However, given what PCs were designed for, and the low end of the market they were targeted at, quality was irrelevant - if it breaks, replace it.

...In a somewhat similar way, IBM worked off offering quality and service at a high price. Such a tactic can't really be adapted to a market that does not really want quality, but wants low cost.

ya but see, we have to marvel at how apple has, in this very same market, managed to continue charging thousands of dollars and 60% profit margins. Sure, there are no other Apple hardware manufacturers (unlike the open pc market), but apple still competes in the pc industry as a whole. The fact that they continue to take market share shows to me that IBM should have marketed themselves better. The marketing angle is so crucial in this insanely  competitive industry.

It pays to know your market - Apple found this out the hard way in the days where Jobs was at NeXT and they tried to make low-end Macs - Apple works off snob value, remove that, and they removed a key part of their selling model.

ya i'm thinking ibm should have gone and appealed aggressively to snob value. They did truly have a superior product.

Yes, I compared IBM and Apple. I probably have only 5 minutes to live now =P

lol, no i think its an apt comparison, because it was in the 90's that ibm died and apple was reborn, both facing the same competitive pc market.  While its true apple innovated in order to remain viable (entering the music distribution industry for instance), it was their marketing strategy that ensured that survival. (the music industry was just as crowded at the time).

they had no idea what the microchip and decentralized computing would do the market.

true

Really it just ended up with them selling standard computers and using their name/image to shift units.

ya that was the beginning of the end of their desktop arm

[wellington1869]

The business computers of the likes of HP, and even Dell, are well built with screw-less design, and have good documentation and support. I used to have a Dell workstation when I was younger and it was a great machine. With the exception of motherboard size it didn't use any non standard parts.

ya i have to say dell's screwless design rocks. You dont need a single tool to do anything, can just open it up and muck around with just your fingers. Its great. And i like that they (like HP too) put all their technical manuals online. Unlike sony

Incidentally I'd be up for a prolonged sony vaio bashing thread, if we want to give the mac folks a break

[InSanCen]

I suppose I could have put it better. I meant that my fingers are used to full travel keys, and hit the bottom in a huge way on short travel keys like Scissors. Although I bottom out on pretty much any board, my fingers really take a pounding on using a Scissor based board.

Well, you have to bottom out on ANY rubber dome but at least it's not a hard bottoming Model F AT type bottoming out.

Just RipOmetered my HP Netbook.  65g.   Not bad - I thought it was lighter than my Fujitsu and most other scissor switches.  The keys are OK but a little more curve to them would have been nice.