Thanks Guys

[pirateofthenet]

Hello everyone here at Geek Hack! I just wanted to thank all of you. It was from reading many, many threads here that I decided on my first mechanical keyboard. I just placed an order for the Majestouch Tactile Click "Otaku" NKRO. I'll post again after I get it. I'm so excited now!

[EverythingIBM]

You'll be so surprised how radically different quality keyboards are from standard rubber domes.

[pirateofthenet]

That's what got me into looking at mechanical keyboards. My roommate has an older das Keyboard and one day my computer was broken so I was using his and stole his keyboard swapping his for my Logitech G15. It was promptly stolen back from me. I have had this G15 for years and it's been great but typing on a mechanical keyboard is so much better. I do a lot of typing as I am a programmer. For any grammar nazies out there I'm a programmer not an English guy so I apologize in advance for any misspellings or other grammatical errors that will inevitably be posted by me. My  mother and sister are both English teachers and are very disappointed...

[EverythingIBM]

That's what got me into looking at mechanical keyboards. My roommate has an older das Keyboard and one day my computer was broken so I was using his and stole his keyboard swapping his for my Logitech G15. It was promptly stolen back from me. I have had this G15 for years and it's been great but typing on a mechanical keyboard is so much better. I do a lot of typing as I am a programmer. For any grammar nazies out there I'm a programmer not an English guy so I apologize in advance for any misspellings or other grammatical errors that will inevitably be posted by me. My  mother and sister are both English teachers and are very disappointed...

People who are good at English tend to be bad at math and vice versa. However, I've never found programming to be terribly related to math (unless the program you're making REQUIRES math, like calendars or something). But if you're math marks are excellent, then it would make sense for you to be not as good at English.

Game programming has some math elements involved oddly enough, and a lot of degree stuff with circles done in math 20 (used to determine what direction a sprite is to change the corresponding sprite for a direction)... I found that kind of humorous seeing as I hated it and then ended up using it.

A good keyboard just feels better no matter what situation you're in. I told a couple of my friends about a few of my keyboards -- they didn't understand why I was excited over a mere keyboard, but they can really enhance one's experience at the computer. Now they want some mechanical ones too lol. So much for not being interested...

[pirateofthenet]

lol. Ya it's like a virus spreading through anyone who touches a high quality keyboard. My math skills are ok to slightly above average but I've had to work hard at it. It seems my family tends towards being right brained. I got all A's in English as an undergrad. I just cannot spell worth a darn. luckily there are wonderful programmers all over the world working had to add good spell checking software to almost every application that requires text input. Also a quick question. I have never actually taken a typing class. This is the main reason why i'm getting a blank keyboard. I can type but still catch myself looking at the keyboard for no reason. back to my question that has nothing to do with that: is the wrist rest from elitekeyboards.com worth the extra ~$40?

[EverythingIBM]

lol. Ya it's like a virus spreading through anyone who touches a high quality keyboard. My math skills are ok to slightly above average but I've had to work hard at it. It seems my family tends towards being right brained. I got all A's in English as an undergrad. I just cannot spell worth a darn. luckily there are wonderful programmers all over the world working had to add good spell checking software to almost every application that requires text input. Also a quick question. I have never actually taken a typing class. This is the main reason why i'm getting a blank keyboard. I can type but still catch myself looking at the keyboard for no reason. back to my question that has nothing to do with that: is the wrist rest from elitekeyboards.com worth the extra ~$40?

I never personally ordered one, but, eh, I wouldn't say it is. You can get one for a cheaper price if need be (got one from staples for $20, which is still kind of a rip off, but it's a huge gel one) -- but I find wrist rests raise my hands too far above the keyboard, which actually strains my wrists... the exact opposite of what it's meant to alleviate lol.
Unless the keyboard is big, bulky, and tall.

I'd save the $40. You'll probably find something cool on the "ebay" section and be not able to restrain yourself from buying it.

Looking down at the keyboard is perfectly fine. I do it to orientate my hands rather than look at the labels.

[glo]

I can type but still catch myself looking at the keyboard for no reason.

Learn proper touch typing! It may take a month or so of practice (can get quite fun actually) but once you do get used to it, you will thank me : )

[muchadoaboutnothing]

Learn proper touch typing! It may take a month or so of practice (can get quite fun actually) but once you do get used to it, you will thank me : )

Oh, and there is a PC version.

[itlnstln]

Blank keys fixed it for me.  I used them for a couple of months, or so, and now I don't look at the keyboard at all.

[gr1m]

People who are good at English tend to be bad at math and vice versa.

Dumbest thing I've ever heard.

[audioave10]

Actually very true and especially with women. I work with many of them and they easily admit that as being a fact.

[pfink]

However, I've never found programming to be terribly related to math (unless the program you're making REQUIRES math, like calendars or something).

Computer programming is inextricably related to mathematics, since at its core it's the manipulation of binary numbers using arithmetic operators and boolean logic.

However, because of the high level of abstraction in today's programming environments a lot of "programming" these days consists of using an IDE to drag and drop pre-coded widgets onto a template, so it's easy to miss the connection.

[Phaedrus2129]

Computer programming is inextricably related to mathematics, since at its core it's the manipulation of binary numbers using arithmetic operators and boolean logic.

However, because of the high level of abstraction in today's programming environments a lot of "programming" these days consists of using an IDE to drag and drop pre-coded widgets onto a template, so it's easy to miss the connection.

Any programming language more abstract than APL has more in common with pure logic than it does with binary manipulation. If we were still programming everything in assembly then we'd never ****ing get anything done.

[pfink]

Any programming language more abstract than APL has more in common with pure logic than it does with binary manipulation. If we were still programming everything in assembly then we'd never ****ing get anything done.

I'm not saying abstraction is necessarily a bad thing, I'm saying that it obscures the relationship between programming and mathematics.

That said, learning to program in assembler should be part of any computer programmer's education even if they never use it again, for much the same reason that everyone should learn basic arithmetic even though it's easier to use a calculator.

[wellington1869]

People who are good at English tend to be bad at math and vice versa.

i think this is more a function of the education system. science/math majors are seldom encouraged to take humanities courses except for the bare minimum. And on the other side humanities students are seldom encouraged to learn about science/math except for the bare minimum. These are two highly segregated worlds on campus.

There's no inherent reason why this should be so. But ya the net result is that it produces two classes of students, the ones that come out with intensive math training and the other that comes out with intensive language training.

The latter tend to be clueless about science and the former clueless about how to express themselves.

Btw from what i understand it wasnt always that way in academe. I remember one of my managers saying how in the 50's education was more holistic and integrated, where you actually had engineering majors coming out of college and being fully cognizant of literary works and poetic language and fully capable of one day becoming well-rounded corporate executives.

Since then we've felt a need to specialize rather than become well rounded, in our educational systems, for some reason.

[Phaedrus2129]

Yes, but my point is that programming isn't really related to math. Programming is based on math at its core, but it's like the relationship between math and a car. Yes, a huge deal of math and engineering went into its manufacture, but you don't need differential calculus to drive a BMW.


ASM is useful to learn, but anyone who prefers it over higher-level language is bat**** loco.

ASM:

Code: [Select]

stack SEGMENT PARA STACK 'STACK'
DB 64 DUP('STACK ')
stack ENDS
;
dseg SEGMENT PARA PUBLIC 'DATA'
greet DB 'Hello, world!$'
dseg ENDS
;
cseg SEGMENT PARA PUBLIC 'CODE'
start PROC FAR
ASSUME CS:CSEG,DS:DSEG,SS:STACK,ES:NOTHING
mov ax,dseg
mov ds,ax
mov dx,OFFSET greet
mov ah,09H
int 21H
mov ah,4CH
int 21H
start ENDP
cseg ENDS
END start
Python:

Code: [Select]

print("Hello, world!")


[wellington1869]

Yes, but my point is that programming isn't really related to math.

but what connects programming and math is Logic. Thats the connecting sinew between them. (it also used to connect math to philosophy departments, before the damn postmodernists took over).

[gr1m]

If people aren't stupid, nothing prevents them from being good at both English and Math.

[pirateofthenet]

This is why I love this place! People who are able to have a nice intelligible debate. Math is the core of programming and seeing as I have been in the scientific track at my school the relationship has been drilled into my head. It is sad though how many of the business track people do not understand this relationship. To me the connection between math and programming is the difference between knowing how to make a hamburger and going to McDonalds. In our program we are required to take a semester of assembly for the IA-32 processor and an Architecture class that requires a fundamental understanding of mathematics.  Also as of late I have been doing a lot of robotics related programming and as it is true you do not need to understand math it make things a lot easier.

[gr1m]

My sister majors in CS, and especially at the higher levels (she's doing her Masters right now), it becomes basically identical to a pure math major. If you want to be a code monkey, maybe software engineering is for you.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

*sigh* what would we do without ripster...

[pfink]

Yes, but my point is that programming isn't really related to math. Programming is based on math at its core, but it's like the relationship between math and a car. Yes, a huge deal of math and engineering went into its manufacture, but you don't need differential calculus to drive a BMW.

If we were talking about running Microsoft Office on a computer rather than programming a computer then the analogy "you don't need differential calculus to drive a BMW" might hold. However, even at the highest level of abstraction you still need to understand boolean algebra, hence mathematics, to program effectively.

Python:
Code:
print("Hello, world!")

Someone had to write the low-level code for the "print" function in order for you to be able to use it. Python wasn't written in Python.

ASM is useful to learn, but anyone who prefers it over higher-level language is bat**** loco.

Most people would prefer to slap together a piece of furniture from Ikea instead of designing and building one themselves from scratch, however that doesn't mean that a master carpenter is bat**** loco.

[ch_123]

Any programming language more abstract than APL has more in common with pure logic than it does with binary manipulation. If we were still programming everything in assembly then we'd never ****ing get anything done.

You've never written in C have you? You know, that language everything is written in?

People survived for decades with assembly language... I don't want to think about what would happen if we only had Python.

i think this is more a function of the education system. science/math majors are seldom encouraged to take humanities courses except for the bare minimum. And on the other side humanities students are seldom encouraged to learn about science/math except for the bare minimum. These are two highly segregated worlds on campus.

There's no inherent reason why this should be so. But ya the net result is that it produces two classes of students, the ones that come out with intensive math training and the other that comes out with intensive language training.

The latter tend to be clueless about science and the former clueless about how to express themselves.

Btw from what i understand it wasnt always that way in academe. I remember one of my managers saying how in the 50's education was more holistic and integrated, where you actually had engineering majors coming out of college and being fully cognizant of literary works and poetic language and fully capable of one day becoming well-rounded corporate executives.

Since then we've felt a need to specialize rather than become well rounded, in our educational systems, for some reason.

I think it goes back to the 'factory model' of education used in schools that caters to the lowest common denominator. I sucked hard at maths in school, and now in college I get high marks in maths exams with very little work required.

Unusually for a CS student, my favorite subjects in school were things like history and classics.

[wellington1869]

Unusually for a CS student, my favorite subjects in school were things like history and classics.

as an engineering major my favorite courses were history and politics. I felt a little schizophrenic as a result, all my best friends were humanities students but my colleagues were all comp sci and engineering folks. I felt like 'medium' going between them.

[wellington1869]

assembly programmers are like analog engineers; highly paid and crucial to the industry but every year there seems to be fewer of them around.*

*just ask apple who is currently scrambling to hire antenna engineers

[ch_123]

Hah, I know that feeling, most of my close friends are humanities students. The true nerd act is something that I have a limited tolerance quota for.

And there isn't an awful lot of use left for assembly language. But the rationale that applies to writing assembly code also applies to languages like C, and writing any sort of meaningful software requires a proper appreciation of how computers and the underlying language operates. Showing how "Hello World" requires less code in Python than Assembly code demonstrates nothing but ignorance of the bigger picture.

[microsoft windows]

Most people would prefer to slap together a piece of furniture from Ikea instead of designing and building one themselves from scratch, however that doesn't mean that a master carpenter is bat**** loco.

You could also buy the furniture from a store instead of gettin some piece of particleboard junk from Ikea.

[pfink]

You could also buy the furniture from a store instead of gettin some piece of particleboard junk from Ikea.

I should know better than to feed the troll, but...

I mentioned Ikea furniture because it requires *some* skill to assemble, so it fits better with the high-level vs. assembly programming analogy. Buying a piece of ready-made furniture would be more like using Microsoft Office (or driving a BMW), using the previous analogies.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict MS Windows' next post will be "You should buy a used American car instead of a stinky overpriced BMW."

[pirateofthenet]

dude Mopar or no car

[Zalusithix]

Someone had to write the low-level code for the "print" function in order for you to be able to use it. Python wasn't written in Python.

I know what you mean, but I can't help but to quibble on this point. A lot of Python is written in Python. Just take a look at the library. There's C code for certain chunks that need to be sped up, but by and large what makes Python what it is, is written in Python. Python is more than just the interpreter.

Quibble aside, CS is probably 75% logic, 25% math most of the time. The math part of this ratio, however, increases the further you get into the "science" part of CS. At its very core, it's pure math. I mean hell, programming as a whole pretty much arose out of lambda calculus. It's really pointless trying to argue exactly how much you need math in CS though, as it totally depends what you'll end up doing. Likewise, what area of math you'll need the most also varies.

[pfink]

I know what you mean, but I can't help but to quibble on this point. A lot of Python is written in Python. Just take a look at the library. There's C code for certain chunks that need to be sped up, but by and large what makes Python what it is, is written in Python. Python is more than just the interpreter.

Yeah, not being that familiar with the history of Python I probably should have said "Python wasn't originally written in Python", since you can't bootstrap a compiler/interpreter for a particular language until after the first iteration has been written in some other language.