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Author Topic: Need Help to choose small KB (Model M mod "closed")  (Read 4805 times)

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Offline Konkistadori

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Need Help to choose small KB (Model M mod "closed")
« on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 09:44:02 »
Hi!

Im new member here so this will be my first post :)..

Reason why i joined because i got this keyboard and need some help with this mod which i might do to this...

I need to cut pcb because i make it smaller if its even possible..

Here are few fast photoshopped HDR pics.. with hdr, dust just pops out in these pics :S..

PNG versions of pictures .. And another one





So that is what im thinking to do.

help is appreciated :)..

Sorry if i posted this into wrong place :/
« Last Edit: Sat, 10 July 2010, 14:58:36 by Konkistadori »
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Offline Morning Song

  • Posts: 90
Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 11:51:20 »
Model Ms don't actually have a PCB for the keyboard... it's a membrane sandwiched between the metal plate and the key tubes.

http://tlb.org/keyboardchop.html is by a guy who modded a keyboard membrane to cut off the numpad, and might help for some of that.
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Clicky keyboards and big trackballs forever!

Keyboards:
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1391401, Unicomp Customizer 104, PS/2 modded IBM Model F Terminal 6110668 (current favorite)
Cherry: Filco Majestouch 105 Blue NKRO w/ doubleshots
ALPS: Dell AT101W Black SNAFU (Silent No-longer; All Fukka\'d Up), Siig Minitouch KB1948 Geek Hack Spacesaver edition, Focus FK-2001 w/ WinKeys+XM Alps
Rubber Dome: Belkin F8E887-BLK, Silitek SK-6000, Logitech Internet Navigator Keyboard

Works in Progress:
Prism ATX N9 Keyboard w/ Fukkas (Clickleaf Donor), Cherry G80-8113HRBUS-2/02 Brown NKRO, Cherry G81-7000HPCUS-2/02 (Doubleshot donors), Unicomp Customizer 101 (Springs donor, needs boltmod)

Pointing Devices:
Kensington Expert Mouse 7, Wacom Intuos3 6x8 w/ classic pen

Looking to buy/trade for:Dolch Cherry keycaps, Northgate Omnikey (With Fkeys on top, or both top & left), IBM Model F AT

Offline ch_123

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:04:02 »
Assuming that you managed to mash around the internal construction of the Model M to fit your proposed layout, which is going to require some serious skills and equipment, there's a more serious problem - you have a later revision Model M. In the later ones, the controller slots into the membrane above the numpad (the controller is basically right under where those status LEDs are) This of course means that there's not really anywhere where you can fit that controller, and even if there was, you'd need to do all sorts of membrane hacks to re-route the traces to the controller.

The point I'm basically making is - it's going probably going to be so ridiculously hard to do that it wont be worth your time.
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Offline kishy

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #3 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:13:51 »
Quote from: ch_123;201287
Assuming that you managed to mash around the internal construction of the Model M to fit your proposed layout, which is going to require some serious skills and equipment, there's a more serious problem - you have a later revision Model M. In the later ones, the controller slots into the membrane above the numpad (the controller is basically right under where those status LEDs are) This of course means that there's not really anywhere where you can fit that controller, and even if there was, you'd need to do all sorts of membrane hacks to re-route the traces to the controller.

The point I'm basically making is - it's going probably going to be so ridiculously hard to do that it wont be worth your time.


With that specific keyboard, yeah, definitely.

The necessary changes to the membrane sheets are quite doable, but the controller positioning is a problem.
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Offline ch_123

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:15:44 »
But also, what about chopping down the backplate and the top part of the assembly? I'd assume that isn't particularly straightforward...

Also, what about the internal supports in the case that keep the internal assembly in place? Wouldn't those be problematic to redo?
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Offline kishy

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:18:44 »
Quote from: ch_123;201291
But also, what about chopping down the backplate and the top part of the assembly? I'd assume that isn't particularly straightforward...

Also, what about the internal supports in the case that keep the internal assembly in place? Wouldn't those be problematic to redo?


It wouldn't be pretty, I can tell you that.

You'd have to break all the rivets and cut the metal backplate, top plastic bit, and use scissors on the membrane (but go a bit longer than the backplate with that).

As for the supports, don't even wanna think about that. That'd be a total mess, but it's doable (basically, "move over" the end of the keyboard so it matches up, and drill a corresponding hole in the metal backplate.
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Offline ch_123

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:19:42 »
I think I'd sooner just fork out for an 84-key...
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Offline dmw

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:23:24 »
Just thinking out loud here:  I wonder if you couldn't just fold the membrane at the keypad, bringing the controller board back to the main part of the keyboard.  Then, insert a piece of paper between the layers of the membrane just for the keypad part.  Of course, you'd have to get creative with wiring to keep the controller board upright.  

I haven't seen a model M membrane. If there is only one connection from the membrane to the controller, you night be able to cut out only the keypad part with no connection, and just fold over the part with the connection, provided the cut-out section has no critical traces running through it.

Of course, none of this has any chance if the connector spans the gap between the keypad and the rest.

Makes me wonder how hard it would be to make a membrane.
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Offline kishy

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  • Location: Windsor, ON Canada
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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:24:05 »
Quote from: ch_123;201293
I think I'd sooner just fork out for an 84-key...


Yeah, well, now you've got one coming to you lol.

The shopped one in this thread is basically what ClickClack discovered. Note the lack of f-keys as well.
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Offline ch_123

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:27:59 »
Bare in mind that the controller slots into the membrane and not the other way around - the membrane at a point folds back on itself, and the controller slides between the two parts, held in place by the upper part of the assembly.

It's hard to explain without a picture, but basically it's not going to be very straightforward to do. It would probably be easier if you have an older type Model M, where the membrane comes out to form ribbon cables at several points, and these slot into connectors on the controller which is located underneath the keyboard.
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Offline dmw

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:32:52 »
As far as getting a controller to fit, just replace it with something small, like the teensy++, and use an alternative firmware.  Mnemonix's firmware could probably be easily ported to the teensy - it's all set for the model M.
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Offline dmw

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:35:35 »
Quote from: ch_123;201296
Bare in mind that the controller slots into the membrane and not the other way around - the membrane at a point folds back on itself, and the controller slides between the two parts, held in place by the upper part of the assembly..


Interesting.  I'd really like to see a picture of this.  Anyone have one?
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Offline ch_123

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #12 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 12:46:39 »




It slides in between the part of the membrane sticking out, and the part that is being displaced by the micrometer.
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Offline dmw

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 13:40:03 »
Wow, that's messed up, or ingenious - I can't decide.  So, the only connection between the top and bottom sheets is right there at the ribbon?  Should still be doable.  Just cut straight across the ribbon, and get two mylar connectors to attach to it.

I agree this would be a pain, but still a fun challenge in the "I wonder if I can make this work" kind of way.
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Offline Konkistadori

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Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #14 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 15:02:29 »
Thanks a ton for your fast answers!

That would been kinda cool to have micro model m..

Oh well this size aint matter really but i need smaller keyboard for my laptop.

But are there any good or almost same "feel" like model m keyboard but really small?

I think HHKB would be only answer.. Too bad that mini guru got canceled :/..
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Offline Morning Song

  • Posts: 90
Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #15 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 18:11:17 »
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10142

Some people here have been doing work with IBM Wheelwriters' keyboards. This is about as small as an M gets. (main block of keys, with single column of function keys on either side)
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Clicky keyboards and big trackballs forever!

Keyboards:
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1391401, Unicomp Customizer 104, PS/2 modded IBM Model F Terminal 6110668 (current favorite)
Cherry: Filco Majestouch 105 Blue NKRO w/ doubleshots
ALPS: Dell AT101W Black SNAFU (Silent No-longer; All Fukka\'d Up), Siig Minitouch KB1948 Geek Hack Spacesaver edition, Focus FK-2001 w/ WinKeys+XM Alps
Rubber Dome: Belkin F8E887-BLK, Silitek SK-6000, Logitech Internet Navigator Keyboard

Works in Progress:
Prism ATX N9 Keyboard w/ Fukkas (Clickleaf Donor), Cherry G80-8113HRBUS-2/02 Brown NKRO, Cherry G81-7000HPCUS-2/02 (Doubleshot donors), Unicomp Customizer 101 (Springs donor, needs boltmod)

Pointing Devices:
Kensington Expert Mouse 7, Wacom Intuos3 6x8 w/ classic pen

Looking to buy/trade for:Dolch Cherry keycaps, Northgate Omnikey (With Fkeys on top, or both top & left), IBM Model F AT

Offline Morning Song

  • Posts: 90
Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #16 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 18:13:39 »
There's also the Geek Hack Spacesaver. It's white ALPS, but it's nice and clicky, and quite small.
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Clicky keyboards and big trackballs forever!

Keyboards:
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1391401, Unicomp Customizer 104, PS/2 modded IBM Model F Terminal 6110668 (current favorite)
Cherry: Filco Majestouch 105 Blue NKRO w/ doubleshots
ALPS: Dell AT101W Black SNAFU (Silent No-longer; All Fukka\'d Up), Siig Minitouch KB1948 Geek Hack Spacesaver edition, Focus FK-2001 w/ WinKeys+XM Alps
Rubber Dome: Belkin F8E887-BLK, Silitek SK-6000, Logitech Internet Navigator Keyboard

Works in Progress:
Prism ATX N9 Keyboard w/ Fukkas (Clickleaf Donor), Cherry G80-8113HRBUS-2/02 Brown NKRO, Cherry G81-7000HPCUS-2/02 (Doubleshot donors), Unicomp Customizer 101 (Springs donor, needs boltmod)

Pointing Devices:
Kensington Expert Mouse 7, Wacom Intuos3 6x8 w/ classic pen

Looking to buy/trade for:Dolch Cherry keycaps, Northgate Omnikey (With Fkeys on top, or both top & left), IBM Model F AT

Offline Konkistadori

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 5
Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #17 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 19:00:45 »
How that GHSS compares to IBM Model M? Too bad im from eu.. Shipping costs are quite high :/
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Offline Morning Song

  • Posts: 90
Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #18 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 20:14:53 »
It has a crisper feel.. rather than being 1/2 to 3/4 of the way down, the click is right at the top, and it's a higher pitched sound with less resonance to it. It uses a little less force to activate, and over all feels a little more modern to me. (though i admit, i sitll prefer the M's feel)

If shipping is prohibitive, you can always look for the actual keyboard Didjamatic is selling: SIIG Minitouch (Not plus)-- mine has the model numbers KB1948 and JB-APS011. They're not in production as far as i know, but you might be able to find one closer to you. You just won't get the nifty green doubleshot keys or the canvas bag
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Clicky keyboards and big trackballs forever!

Keyboards:
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1391401, Unicomp Customizer 104, PS/2 modded IBM Model F Terminal 6110668 (current favorite)
Cherry: Filco Majestouch 105 Blue NKRO w/ doubleshots
ALPS: Dell AT101W Black SNAFU (Silent No-longer; All Fukka\'d Up), Siig Minitouch KB1948 Geek Hack Spacesaver edition, Focus FK-2001 w/ WinKeys+XM Alps
Rubber Dome: Belkin F8E887-BLK, Silitek SK-6000, Logitech Internet Navigator Keyboard

Works in Progress:
Prism ATX N9 Keyboard w/ Fukkas (Clickleaf Donor), Cherry G80-8113HRBUS-2/02 Brown NKRO, Cherry G81-7000HPCUS-2/02 (Doubleshot donors), Unicomp Customizer 101 (Springs donor, needs boltmod)

Pointing Devices:
Kensington Expert Mouse 7, Wacom Intuos3 6x8 w/ classic pen

Looking to buy/trade for:Dolch Cherry keycaps, Northgate Omnikey (With Fkeys on top, or both top & left), IBM Model F AT

Offline EverythingIBM

  • Posts: 1269
Need Help with Model M mod
« Reply #19 on: Sat, 10 July 2010, 20:30:12 »
Quote from: kishy;201290
With that specific keyboard, yeah, definitely.

The necessary changes to the membrane sheets are quite doable, but the controller positioning is a problem.


Not to mention, you wouldn't be able to switch into numpad mode unless you did some crazy programming?
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Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT
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