Kailh Box Brown Alternative

[adsimilisjesu]

i recently purchased a igk68 with kailh box browns and they are starting to get a little clicky. i love the feel of them, but I use the keyboard in an enclosed office setting. i honestly don't want to have to open them up and lube them every few weeks, as this seems to be the common time-frame within which the lube dries out. i was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for similar switches. i am thinking zealios 78g purple, matias quiet click or kailh pro purple. any information would be appreciated

[powwu]

any MX-style tactile should fit you well. Zealios will feel a bit more tactile than you're used to, though. if I were you, I'd buy a big switch tester and see what feels best to you.

[adsimilisjesu]

that's fair. does anyone have any suggestions as to what other switches to put on the switch tester? from what i have read online, the aforementioned switches seems to have similar actuation forces and actuation points to the box browns.

[Maledicted]

that's fair. does anyone have any suggestions as to what other switches to put on the switch tester? from what i have read online, the aforementioned switches seems to have similar actuation forces and actuation points to the box browns.

I can try a pro purple in my tester when I get home, and compare those and "quiet clicks" against box browns. I haven't tried anything made by Zeal, unfortunately, since I normally don't care too much for tactiles. One thing I will say is that, for whatever reason, I have noticed that the combination of dampened sliders and the tactile leaves in "quiet clicks" always seem at least a bit rougher than even the same leaves with undampened sliders or their quiet linears, which seem to me to be wonderfully smooth and pleasant to bottom out.

They're certainly very quiet though (more quiet than my unmodified 55g Realforce 87u) and have a relatively satisfying bump (in my opinion) and overall feeling otherwise. I noticed a second used board I purchased seemed much smoother, so maybe they just take some wearing in or something, as I have brand new loose switches that all feel a bit scratchy to me.

[adsimilisjesu]

awesome, thank you. yeah, i do have reservations about the quiet clicks because of the dampening. the more feedback i get on them, the more confused i become. they seem to be a bit polarizing, whereas the other two seem to have a common consensus in the community

[Maledicted]

I would say that the tactile event on the pro purples is more rounded/less sharp than the box browns, it is also a little less noticeable, and even closer to MX browns in both that regard and their scratchiness (at least in the one I have in my tester). Interestingly, it seems like the tactile bump is more noticeable on the upstroke than that of the downstroke with my pro purple. The tactile event itself of the Matias "quiet click" switch feels, to me, closer in sharpness to box brown, but it is also a little more tactile than box brown.

As far as other close alternatives go that I have immediately in front of me, the Gateron browns are the smoothest of the bunch followed by ... Matias "quiet clicks" (the ones on the clean but used board come pretty close to the Gaterons in smoothness). I guess I have gotten pretty picky. Both are followed closely by the box browns. The Gaterons come with the potential caveat of being slightly less tactile and having a slightly more rounded tactile event than the box browns. Kailh's standard browns seem relatively close in the feeling of the tactile event, but are considerably more scratchy.

These are all factory switches, of course. I don't bother with that lubrication stuff, so I couldn't say which ways all of this may swing in that regard.

[adsimilisjesu]

thank you so much. i earnestly appreciate it deeply, especially considering the cost of shipping on this stuff. hope i can repay the favor

[HungerMechanic]

1. The closest switch to BOX Brown might actually be Kailh's new BOX Silent Brown. It uses an entirely new stem. It hasn't been established yet that it turns clicky like the original BOX Brown switch. So if it does remain silent, it might be the ideal choice for you.

2. Kailh Pro Purples are similar to BOX Browns but not identical. The post about them in this thread is accurate. They are pretty loud, though.

3. Something similar in tactility would be Ergo Clears, around 63.5-65 G in weight. I mention these because they are of medium tactility, kind of like BOX Brown [a little more tactile than BOX Brown] and they don't sound bad once lubed and put in a decent setup. They can give a nice deep clack which sounds very professional.

The Ergo Clears will be like MX Brown in that the tactility takes place in the middle of the switch rather than at the top like BOX Brown / Pro Purple.

4. You might be well-served by the silent tactiles. Here's a rundown:

-Zilents V2: These are the most expensive, but maybe the most refined. The switches are smooth in stock form, though benefit from lube. The tactility is very high in intensity. The tactile event is at the top of the switch, like BOX Brown, but the 'bump' is larger, and takes up a great deal of the switch. Then it basically slams down to the bottom.

It's sharper and steeper than BOX Brown IMHO, and doesn't 'buckle' like BOX Brown seems to.

The 62 G weight would be close to BOX Brown.


-Aliaz: This is basically a Silent Brown, as in Gateron Brown. Bump in the middle of the switch. Also very faint 'bump' much like Cherry/Gateron Brown. Not as distinct and sharp as BOX Brown, that's for sure. It's a pretty quiet switch, but the stock spring sucks. Get 60G weight, although 70G is preferred by many for typing.

-OUTEMU Silent Sky: This is something you should seriously consider. It's more scratchy than BOX Brown, but it has kind of a similar tactility. Like the bump is a capital "P" where the tactility is right there at the top. When lubed [and spring-swapped] it becomes a pretty quiet switch. Should be good for the workplace and transitioning from BOX Brown. You have to talk to a person on Reddit to get it.

Instead of the "Silent Tactile" stem they come with, you can also order a "U4" stem, which is a big rounded bump kind of like Zilents or the less-common "Tacit" [Silent T1] switch.

-Topre. Any kind of Silenced 45G Topre should be good for you, although it will be a bit heavier than BOX Browns. If you want something lighter/closer to the BOX Brown weight and tactility, you could go for 35G, but it's not as commonly silenced. The Niz/Plum EC switches come in 35G weight, and are often quiet/pleasant-sounding.

[adsimilisjesu]

wow, that is awesome. thank you for taking the time to organize all this information. i'm actually looking into whether the silent box browns have the same issues. if not, you're spot on insofar as using them to replace my current set up. if they do, i'll look into the ergo clears, as they sounded really nice in your post.

[HungerMechanic]

Sure. Hopefully the BOX Silent Browns don't turn clicky. Then, they might be perfect for you.

If not, I would say the best choices for you in the MX world are the Zilents V2 or OUTEMU Silent Sky. The Zilent V2 is kind of like a quiet BOX Brown on steroids. In terms of the tactility being at the top.

The OUTEMU Silent Sky also has a top-mounted bump, and is probably closer to BOX Brown in the tactile intensity. If you're going to end up lubing switches, this is a good one for you. The reason is that it's affordably-priced and actually very quiet [so are the U4 variants]. If you can type on BOX Brown, you can type on these, and it should work well at the office.

Here's a couple of good OUTEMU Silent Sky / U4 setups:

The Ergo Clears are different from BOX Browns because the Ergo Clears have a Cherry tactile profile, with the 'bump' in the middle. It's fine, but different from BOX Brown. It can be a very good typing experience if you find the right spring weight, but it means lubing and spring-swapping MX Clears, and it's not a silent switch. Sure, it sounds good, but it is as loud as MX Brown.

Here are some decent Ergo Clear setups:

and a comparison:

If you want to go even quieter, you can use Silent Alpacas [linears]. Like this guy:

[Maledicted]

thank you so much. i earnestly appreciate it deeply, especially considering the cost of shipping on this stuff. hope i can repay the favor

You're very welcome, for whatever my impressions as a clicky guy are worth. I did have a feeling, and hope, that a tactile expert like HungerMechanic would chime in.

1. The closest switch to BOX Brown might actually be Kailh's new BOX Silent Brown. It uses an entirely new stem. It hasn't been established yet that it turns clicky like the original BOX Brown switch. So if it does remain silent, it might be the ideal choice for you.

You keep making me jealous that some people have actually received some box silent switches. My reds/pinks are still missing, somewhere out in the ether ... even though I initially ordered them the very day Kailh informed us they were available on Aliexpress.

[adsimilisjesu]

i had not idea outemu switches were that good. i just need to get a tester and try this stuff out instead of going off of group think

[HungerMechanic]

You're very welcome, for whatever my impressions as a clicky guy are worth. I did have a feeling, and hope, that a tactile expert like HungerMechanic would chime in.

I have to admit, it amused me to read this. I am touched being called a 'tactile expert,' but there are many people light-years ahead of me in testing tactiles.

I think it would be more accurate to call me what I imagine a certain deep-voiced keyboard reviewer would say about me, namely that I am a "masochist who has sampled the gamut of subpar MX tactiles and come out with nothing save for the knowledge that MX tactility is a lie."

Seriously, though, I'm just looking for a better tactile than what comes stock with Cherry, and I knew it would be a long journey. 

[HungerMechanic]

i had not idea outemu switches were that good. i just need to get a tester and try this stuff out instead of going off of group think

Yeah, things move fast in the keyboard world. Like, very fast. Kailh was a sh*tty clone brand, then it started making its own enthusiast switches. Their BOX switches revolutionized MX-compatible clickies.

Gateron, too, was seen as a clone manufacturer, until it came out with its own premium lines, and cheap switches that beat out Cherry standards.

And that was then. When it took years for reputations to change. JWK/Durock was associated with a certain scandal (and still is), but nevertheless has rocketed into popularity for offering cheap heavy tactiles and incredibly-smooth linears. And that turnaround happened in mere months.

In OUTEMU's case, it still largely makes clone switches that aren't that great (although OUTEMU Blues are liked more than Cherry Blues by many). But it does have an 'enthusiast' line, which is the Ice/Sky/Silent Sky/Forest series of tactiles and linears. Those switches still suffer from the way they are constructed, such as with scratchiness and wobble. But they are meant for modding, and can be modded into something that meets requirements, as you saw in the videos.

Even when I got into things, I had a feeling that information I was reading in 2018 was out-of-date...and it was. Websites were still writing about Cherry switches like they still mattered. People were still recommending Das Keyboard and Filco Majestouch. Dinosaurs even then. You'd be reading about hysteresis, as if it was still a big deal despite the new BOX clickies. Fast-forward a bit and KAT and MT3 are displacing SA-profile keycaps, and we may be witnessing the peak and decline of GMK and ePBT. Who knows? Lots of new entrants into the market at all times, and yesterday's stalwart standard is tomorrow's overpriced has-been.

So no, you can't rely on hearsay. Fortunately, Youtube videos can't lie too much about sound [unless they use 5+ deskmats], there are many reviewers, people post about new items all the time all over the place, and isn't touching all the other outlets people talk about this stuff. So take a look at the frequently-updated places, and you'll see what's good. Not everybody will agree on what's good, and people have different needs, so you have to take that into consideration.

[Maledicted]

You're very welcome, for whatever my impressions as a clicky guy are worth. I did have a feeling, and hope, that a tactile expert like HungerMechanic would chime in.

I have to admit, it amused me to read this. I am touched being called a 'tactile expert,' but there are many people light-years ahead of me in testing tactiles.

I think it would be more accurate to call me what I imagine a certain deep-voiced keyboard reviewer would say about me, namely that I am a "masochist who has sampled the gamut of subpar MX tactiles and come out with nothing save for the knowledge that MX tactility is a lie."

Seriously, though, I'm just looking for a better tactile than what comes stock with Cherry, and I knew it would be a long journey. 

Well, what else would make you an expert? Most tactile switches suck. I think I can say that pretty objectively, even as someone who doesn't much like  them in general. Finding something modern that even approaches Topre or vintage Alps tactiles, etc, on the average off-the-shelf board must be near impossible. Sometimes I feel like clickies kind of take a back seat in terms of development/variation in the modern market, but then it just takes playing with a switch tester to realize why. I can't stand MX blues anymore, but I wouldn't choose anything (stock) MX over them. They've been just good enough for people for decades, and it shows in that Kaihua is basically the only modern switch company to attempt to reinvent the wheel.

Has he actually said that, specifically? The quote does sound characteristic of him.

In OUTEMU's case, it still largely makes clone switches that aren't that great (although OUTEMU Blues are liked more than Cherry Blues by many). But it does have an 'enthusiast' line, which is the Ice/Sky/Silent Sky/Forest series of tactiles and linears. Those switches still suffer from the way they are constructed, such as with scratchiness and wobble. But they are meant for modding, and can be modded into something that meets requirements, as you saw in the videos.

From what I have tried, I agree. Every run-of-the-mill Outemu switch on my tester, which you would commonly find in cheap Amazon boards, etc, majorly sucks. I think just about every one other than blues that I tried felt scratchier and less consistent than Cherry MX equivalents (what a feat). I imagine that doesn't help their overall reputation. I could see somebody trying their reds or browns and just writing the whole company off as garbage. Their blues, however, are almost indistinguishable from Gateron blues to me. The Gaterons are only every so slightly more consistent and maybe almost imperceptibly more smooth. They both have about the same heavy and crisp click and tactile event.

Then there's also the fact that Outemu makes Matias' switches, which are quickly becoming some of my favorites in all 3 branches of the holy trinity of switch types ... reliability concerns aside.

They basically have a monopoly on the lowest of the low end keyboard market at this point, which I imagine results in tremendous sales numbers. I imagine they may well be a dark horse just waiting to break out, hopefully investing in some R&D for improved iterations of their direct MX clone switches.

[adsimilisjesu]

quick update, I have been looking around some more and came across mod switches. my understanding is that they are a bit wobbly, but the mod-l seem to have some similarities to the box browns, while the mod-m switches are a bit heavier. they don't seem to be that popular, so idk if anyone has any experience with these.

[jamster]

1. The closest switch to BOX Brown might actually be Kailh's new BOX Silent Brown. It uses an entirely new stem. It hasn't been established yet that it turns clicky like the original BOX Brown switch. So if it does remain silent, it might be the ideal choice for you.
 
3. Something similar in tactility would be Ergo Clears, around 63.5-65 G in weight. I mention these because they are of medium tactility, kind of like BOX Brown [a little more tactile than BOX Brown] and they don't sound bad once lubed and put in a decent setup. They can give a nice deep clack which sounds very professional.

The Ergo Clears will be like MX Brown in that the tactility takes place in the middle of the switch rather than at the top like BOX Brown / Pro Purple.

-Aliaz: This is basically a Silent Brown, as in Gateron Brown. Bump in the middle of the switch. Also very faint 'bump' much like Cherry/Gateron Brown. Not as distinct and sharp as BOX Brown, that's for sure. It's a pretty quiet switch, but the stock spring sucks. Get 60G weight, although 70G is preferred by many for typing.

-OUTEMU Silent Sky: This is something you should seriously consider. It's more scratchy than BOX Brown, but it has kind of a similar tactility. Like the bump is a capital "P" where the tactility is right there at the top. When lubed [and spring-swapped] it becomes a pretty quiet switch. Should be good for the workplace and transitioning from BOX Brown. You have to talk to a person on Reddit to get it.

Instead of the "Silent Tactile" stem they come with, you can also order a "U4" stem, which is a big rounded bump kind of like Zilents or the less-common "Tacit" [Silent T1] switch.

A comment on some of these switches, as I got a smattering in the other day for testing.

I have the Kailh Box Silent Browns, Aliaz in 60 and 70g, Outemu Silent Forest in 62 and 68 (which looks the same as the Sky, I am wondering if they are the same and Forest was an artefact of Google Translate when I ordered them). One of my primary use keyboards is Ergo Clear 65, but I haven't touched it for months (work from home).

All of the silenced switches sound about the same in terms of noise level and characteristics. Turns out that where they are positioned on my switch tester has more of an impact on noise than anything to do with the mechanisms themselves.

The Kailh Box Silent Browns have the bump at the top of travel and seem smooth enough.

The Aliaz have the bump midway down. When typing normally, this isn't noticeable to me, but if I rest my finger on a key as a precursor to depressing, this feels like more wobble. I am not going to continue with these switches.

The Outemu switches have the bump at the top. They mush out a little more at the end, but at normal typing speeds this isn't noticeable to me (I run thick o-rings on my Ergo Clear anyway).

None of these switches feel as tactile as Ergo Clears, but they all feel more tactile than my old Cherry MX Browns. They all feel about as smooth as each other, and don't have the scratchy feeling of my Browns.

They're all pretty good, I'm pleasantly surprised at how reasonable they are. I still prefer Topre, but the MX designs seem to have come a long way with the newer offerings. These switches are all reasonably acceptable out of the box to me, whereas five years ago no stock MX switch would have been bearable for a daily use keyboard.

And all of these are good options for use in an open plan office.

[HungerMechanic]

Well, what else would make you an expert? Most tactile switches suck. I think I can say that pretty objectively, even as someone who doesn't much like  them in general.

In my opinion, what makes people an expert in MX tactiles is that they understand exactly how they work, such as how the curves and bumps on the slider legs produce tactility, and in what way, and can intrinsically contrast them to other methods, such as the tactility produced by clickbars. They understand how minor variations in leafs and housings can produce different tactile results, and it leads them to doing things like putting MX Clear stems in MX Blue housings for added tactility.

I only received the equipment to dismantle and create new switches recently, so I am not anywhere near that level. Just making my first frankenswitches now. So I consider the people who create new tactile switches to be the experts. I'm just someone who is experienced in trying a variety of MX tactiles, and has some comparative knowledge.

But I'm being pedantic. Someone who has knowledge of an issue could be considered an expert, it's a relative term here.

Has he actually said that, specifically? The quote does sound characteristic of him.

Haha, no. He hasn't said anything to that effect, I just put together the way he talks to simulate what he might say.

Then there's also the fact that Outemu makes Matias' switches, which are quickly becoming some of my favorites in all 3 branches of the holy trinity of switch types ... reliability concerns aside.

They basically have a monopoly on the lowest of the low end keyboard market at this point, which I imagine results in tremendous sales numbers. I imagine they may well be a dark horse just waiting to break out, hopefully investing in some R&D for improved iterations of their direct MX clone switches.

OUTEMU makes Matias' switches? That's very interesting. Maybe if they do a generation 2 and sort out their production process, they could produce a reliable Matias' switch. I'm Canadian but I won't buy them because of their reliability issues.

I agree about the dark horse aspect. They can use their existing revenues from their strength in the lowest end in order to research and innovate new switches that can compete in the enthusiast market. That kind of seems to be what the Sky and related series are. They are still kind of crude in some respects compared to other enthusiast switches, but they are steadily improving. If they can achieve Durock-level smoothness in their housings, for example, it could help propel them forwards. They need to keep working at it.

[HungerMechanic]

quick update, I have been looking around some more and came across mod switches. my understanding is that they are a bit wobbly, but the mod-l seem to have some similarities to the box browns, while the mod-m switches are a bit heavier. they don't seem to be that popular, so idk if anyone has any experience with these.

I tried some MOD switches at meetups... I wasn't impressed.

They felt scratchy, and most of them felt unduly heavy. It just felt like there was a lot of 'grain' and 'noise' in the switch that didn't have to be there. But lubing could be a factor here.

I think the MOD-L is the best bet for you among the MOD switches. It's closest in weight to the BOX Browns. In my experience, you WILL notice the heavier weight of the other switches.

[HungerMechanic]

A comment on some of these switches, as I got a smattering in the other day for testing. [...]

I agree with what you wrote.

It's my understanding that Silent Forest is exactly the same as a particular version of Silent Sky. It's just a renaming. You predominantly find Silent Forest on AliExpress, and Silent Sky in the U.S.

I agree that the Aliaz 'bump' leaves a lot to be desired. I just can't get an ideal typing experience with these switches. They're fine at 60-70 WPM, which is a normal speed for a lot of people, but people going for higher speeds and needing faster, more definite feedback might have trouble with these.

I agree that Ergo Clears are more tactile than most of those switches. They may even be more tactile than what people are looking for. And I'm not sure they're the best design for use with less than 65G springs. OUTEMU seems to work better around 62G than MX Clears.

[adsimilisjesu]

yeah, that seems to be inline with some of the other stuff I heard. novelkeys' DIY keyswitch tester is out of stock right now, I think I may have to just wait until it comes in and get some first hand experience. cause I am not trying to leave the house until early 2021 for any meetups. my dad's diabetic, so I am trying my best to avoid exposure. anyway, thanks again

[Maledicted]

OUTEMU makes Matias' switches? That's very interesting. Maybe if they do a generation 2 and sort out their production process, they could produce a reliable Matias' switch. I'm Canadian but I won't buy them because of their reliability issues.

I agree about the dark horse aspect. They can use their existing revenues from their strength in the lowest end in order to research and innovate new switches that can compete in the enthusiast market. That kind of seems to be what the Sky and related series are. They are still kind of crude in some respects compared to other enthusiast switches, but they are steadily improving. If they can achieve Durock-level smoothness in their housings, for example, it could help propel them forwards. They need to keep working at it.

They do. I'm starting to wonder if the concerns with quality have been overblown. I now own something like 5 to 7 of their mini boards (most are used) and, in limited testing of at least half but daily use of 2-3 of them, I haven't found a single switch that has exhibited chatter.

The Matias switches, except for the "quiet click" dampened tactiles, are actually already really smooth. I'm not sure why that's the case when most of the others aren't, other than Matias maybe being a little more exacting about specifications.

yeah, that seems to be inline with some of the other stuff I heard. novelkeys' DIY keyswitch tester is out of stock right now, I think I may have to just wait until it comes in and get some first hand experience. cause I am not trying to leave the house until early 2021 for any meetups. my dad's diabetic, so I am trying my best to avoid exposure. anyway, thanks again

Good luck on your journey. I know I haven't been to a meetup at all myself, but it is a lot easier/cheaper to hunt down and try most of the best clicky options than linears and tactiles.