wondering if y'all can help me pick out a keyboard?

[BigDeuce]

I have never had any problem of that nature with my Cherry keyboard either. Interestingly, I think this problem exist with real ALPS. My ABS M1 does not seem to suffer this kind of problem either.

I have never had any issues with off-center key presses with any of my Cherry brown 'boards.  Cherry MLs suck for off-center response, though.

New member, first time poster, newly addicted key-switch seeker.

I have noticed this very issue with my 2 newest keyboards: a Dell AT101W and a Cherry G84-4100. I guess that I wasn't paying attention to the format of the Cherry board before I purchased, tiny keys and my monster paws don't jive. I believe this board has the ML switches you mentioned, and they do in fact bind when not pressed on center. Disappointed all the way around with that board.

On the prowl for a Cherry brown flavored board now. Close to pulling the trigger on a Filco tenkeyless.

[itlnstln]

I have noticed this very issue with my 2 newest keyboards: a Dell AT101W and a Cherry G84-4100. I guess that I wasn't paying attention to the format of the Cherry board before I purchased, tiny keys and my monster paws don't jive. I believe this board has the ML switches you mentioned, and they do in fact bind when not pressed on center. Disappointed all the way around with that board.

I see you're 2 for 2; is that why your name is Big Deuce?

Anyway, welcome to Geekhack!  Grab that Filco, it's a nice 'board.


"Big Deuce."  That makes me chuckle.

[keyboardlover]

"Big Deuce."  That makes me chuckle.

Glad I wasn't the only one who LOLed at that

[Voixdelion]

New member, first time poster, newly addicted key-switch seeker.

Greetings, seeker! but be forewarned...
 
BEWARE!! BEWARE, I SAY!!!

Sure you come here, looking for good research info to make a good choice so you don't end up wasting money but it only gets worse the more info you get.  Each thing seems intriguing with the depth of detail about every single switch and its variants, and then you realize that the only way to KNOW is to try em out.   When I made the decision to buy a Model M I thought I was choosing between 3 potential keyboards tops only now I've been hemorrhaging cash for keyboards ever since I signed up only a few months ago.   Not that I consider that money wasted by any stretch of the imagination, but I just did a little inventory check here and it has GOT to stop or I'm going to have to apply a tourniquet on the Paypal account.

[patrickgeekhack]

Greetings, seeker! but be forewarned...
 
BEWARE!! BEWARE, I SAY!!!

Sure you come here, looking for good research info to make a good choice so you don't end up wasting money but it only gets worse the more info you get.  Each thing seems intriguing with the depth of detail about every single switch and its variants, and then you realize that the only way to KNOW is to try em out.   When I made the decision to buy a Model M I thought I was choosing between 3 potential keyboards tops only now I've been hemorrhaging cash for keyboards ever since I signed up only a few months ago.   Not that I consider that money wasted by any stretch of the imagination, but I just did a little inventory check here and it has GOT to stop or I'm going to have to apply a tourniquet on the Paypal account.

I was in the exact same situation as you. I stumbled on article on the Das. I wanted to have some reviews before I spent a big sum of money on a keyboard. Then I learned about buckling spring, that everyone should at least try one of them once. Then, this forum lifted the veil on a whole new world that I never knew existed: buckling spring, Cherry Blue, Cherry Brown, ALPS Black, ALPS white, Topre... And like you said, the only way to know is to try them out. In the process, I realised that I liked lighter switches more than heavier ones, but I do like heavier ones from time to time. Again, like you said, I don't consider the money I spent as money wasted, even if sometimes it's depressing to consider the total amount.

[keyboardlover]

I was in the exact same situation as you. I stumbled on article on the Das. I wanted to have some reviews before I spent a big sum of money on a keyboard. Then I learned about buckling spring, that everyone should at least try one of them once. Then, this forum lifted the veil on a whole new world that I never knew existed: buckling spring, Cherry Blue, Cherry Brown, ALPS Black, ALPS white, Topre... And like you said, the only way to know is to try them out. In the process, I realised that I liked lighter switches more than heavier ones, but I do like heavier ones from time to time. Again, like you said, I don't consider the money I spent as money wasted, even if sometimes it's depressing to consider the total amount.

I've decided that if I spend more than $100 on a keyboard, I'll only do it once. So in the meantime, I can decide if it's really worth it and which exact one I want. In the meantime, I'm happy with my cheap-o boards

[itlnstln]

I've decided that if I spend more than $100 on a keyboard, I'll only do it once.

Yeah, right.

[patrickgeekhack]

I've decided that if I spend more than $100 on a keyboard, I'll only do it once. So in the meantime, I can decide if it's really worth it and which exact one I want. In the meantime, I'm happy with my cheap-o boards

If you are torn between two keyboards, buy the one you really want even if it's more expensive. Trust me, if you don't, you'll end up buying both.

I don't want to scare you, but you seem to be in big troube. You've stayed here for too long :-)

[keyboardlover]

Hehe well I've limited myself to not buy any other boards for several months at least so we'll see. I tried typing again on the AT101W yesterday and it wasn't as bad as I remembered - only a few keys cause issues. I guess this is something you could get used to by training yourself to always hit certain keys at a direct angle. I must say though, the tenkeyless Filco is very intriguing...

[Voixdelion]

I've decided that if I spend more than $100 on a keyboard, I'll only do it once. So in the meantime, I can decide if it's really worth it and which exact one I want. In the meantime, I'm happy with my cheap-o boards

Yeah, right.

- I chuckled (ruefully) at that one, too.

Hehe well I've limited myself to not buy any other boards for several months at least so we'll see. I tried typing again on the AT101W yesterday and it wasn't as bad as I remembered - only a few keys cause issues. I guess this is something you could get used to by training yourself to always hit certain keys at a direct angle. I must say though, the tenkeyless Filco is very intriguing...

this:

 I don't want to scare you, but you seem to be in big troube. You've  stayed here for too long :-)

Oh yeah - classic symptoms of the virus.  All's I can say is... You have been warned
heh, heh, heh....
:laugh:  

Just thinking about 3 months from now how we'll all look back on this and laaaaauuuugh!

[keyboardlover]

Lolz...well I'm typing on my AT101W again and it's better than I remembered. It's true that hitting some of the keys indirectly doesn't result in a keypress but it's not too bad if you're already a touch-typist. Overall I like it but I'm still interested to try the MX11800 for a couple days. Not saying I won't end up getting a Filco or Topre one day but for now I think I'm happy with these two haha

[patrickgeekhack]

Lolz...well I'm typing on my AT101W again and it's better than I remembered. It's true that hitting some of the keys indirectly doesn't result in a keypress but it's not too bad if you're already a touch-typist. Overall I like it but I'm still interested to try the MX11800 for a couple days. Not saying I won't end up getting a Filco or Topre one day but for now I think I'm happy with these two haha

The AT101W can provide a wondeful typing experience if one can type right in the middle. I was able to do so only if I used the legs to raise the keyboard. But, unfortunately, when raising the keyboard was not very comfortable when I used a keyboard tray.

[Voixdelion]

Agreed the Dell is much nicer than I thought.  I am using mine now too, since the M is a little too much exercise for me right now.  I still get a little bind here and there, and seem to type "teh" alot instead of "the" though.  I was surprised to discover how much I like the black non-clicky Alps.  Though they still click because I tend to bottom out the keystroke after typing on the M.

And I just picked up the M$ wireless mushboard I was using previously to return it to my BF -PERMANENTLY if you please.  When handing it to him, I touched one of the keys by accident....Oh the Horror!  (*shudder*)

[keyboardlover]

Agreed the Dell is much nicer than I thought.  I am using mine now too, since the M is a little too much exercise for me right now.  I still get a little bind here and there, and seem to type "teh" alot instead of "the" though.  I was surprised to discover how much I like the black non-clicky Alps.  Though they still click because I tend to bottom out the keystroke after typing on the M.

I noticed the clicking the other day when I switched to my MX11800 for the better part of the day. Although I liked the cherry browns to some degree I found myself wishing for the feel of the Dell again. Which confuses me, because in the wiki Black Alps and Cherry Browns are both listed under 'Tactile and Non-clicky'. I don't think this is true - the Alps definitely have a 'click'.

Which brings me to another question - since I like the feel of the black alps a lot on my Dell but I don't like the issue so much with the stiffness of the keys, is there a different type of switch which has the feeling of black alps but is much smoother? The closest I can think of (atm) is my current Key Tronic! Lol...or maybe that's how a Topre feels? I'm a bit confused...

[keyboardlover]

From the "Mechanical Keyboards Sorted By Switch Wiki":
Your Unicomp Customizer for example clicks when you depress the switch slowly.
Any Cherry MX switch is smoother than an ALPS.  ALPS are pretty raggedy.

Ok that's more clear...so by that then it seems what I'm really looking for in a mechanical switch would be closer to Clear Cherry or Topre?

[Voixdelion]

I noticed the clicking the other day when I switched to my MX11800 for the better part of the day. Although I liked the cherry browns to some degree I found myself wishing for the feel of the Dell again. Which confuses me, because in the wiki Black Alps and Cherry Browns are both listed under 'Tactile and Non-clicky'. I don't think this is true - the Alps definitely have a 'click'.

Which brings me to another question - since I like the feel of the black alps a lot on my Dell but I don't like the issue so much with the stiffness of the keys, is there a different type of switch which has the feeling of black alps but is much smoother? The closest I can think of (atm) is my current Key Tronic! Lol...or maybe that's how a Topre feels? I'm a bit confused...

Any Cherry MX switch is smoother than an ALPS.  ALPS are pretty raggedy.

Ok that's more clear...so by that then it seems what I'm really looking for in a mechanical switch would be closer to Clear Cherry or Topre?

Ok - I got totally lost on that exchange, and if I'm to give any meaningful report of what I discover in my various experiments next week, I'll need to clarify terms.   If any Cherry switch is "smoother" than an Alps, but the "feel" of the Alps is preferred over said Cherries, then : Could you please clarify which part of the keypress that you are referring to when you say you like the "feel" of the Dell  - do you mean how hard you have to push the key to actuate, how far it travels in total distance or... ?  And by "smoother" do you mean in terms of friction as the key depresses or do you mean less tactile bump than even the Dell?  If the latter then you may want a LINEAR switch (which is what the Topre does have, yes?) without a bump at all?  If so then you may want Cherry BLACK switches (no bump, no click), but these require higher actuation force (I've read).  

Does ALPS have a linear switch?  (I've never even researched that.  For myself, I was only interested in clicky boards, hence my surprise about liking the Dell AT101W at all, but then again, I guess it hasn't gone up against the big guns yet either.  ANYTHING is an improvement over the plastic toys that are generally available...)

Does key "stiffness" mean the opposite of "smoothness"?  Could it (in theory) be addressed by some kind of lubricant to ease  friction increasing "smoothness" or is this in reference to how much force is required to initiate actuation or what?

Aside: Why is spell check underlining "clicky"?  How does "cl icky" make the dictionary and not that? or for that matter "cl-icky" and not "click-y"? Wtf? So before I hit "Add to dictionary," should it be "clicky" or "clickey" (or should it be "click-y" or "click-ey")?

[keyboardlover]

Ok - I got totally lost on that exchange, and if I'm to give any meaningful report of what I discover in my various experiments next week, I'll need to clarify terms.   If any Cherry switch is "smoother" than an Alps, but the "feel" of the Alps is preferred over said Cherries, then : Could you please clarify which part of the keypress that you are referring to when you say you like the "feel" of the Dell  - do you mean how hard you have to push the key to actuate, how far it travels in total distance or... ?  And by "smoother" do you mean in terms of friction as the key depresses or do you mean less tactile bump than even the Dell?  If the latter then you may want a LINEAR switch (which is what the Topre does have, yes?) without a bump at all?  If so then you may want Cherry BLACK switches (no bump, no click), but these require higher actuation force (I've read).  

I think I mean in terms of friction as the key depresses - the only thing I don't like is how if you don't hit the switch right in the middle, it won't depress completely. But I like the sound it makes - the 'thack' when it bottoms out and the (I dunno...'click'?) as it comes back up after being pressed.

Does ALPS have a linear switch?  (I've never even researched that.  For myself, I was only interested in clicky boards, hence my surprise about liking the Dell AT101W at all, but then again, I guess it hasn't gone up against the big guns yet either.  ANYTHING is an improvement over the plastic toys that are generally available...)

No clue...I'd like to know though.

Does key "stiffness" mean the opposite of "smoothness"?  Could it (in theory) be addressed by some kind of lubricant to ease  friction increasing "smoothness" or is this in reference to how much force is required to initiate actuation or what?

I dunno, that wasn't mentioned by anyone else in this post. I'm willing to try it if someone can recommend something.

Aside: Why is spell check underlining "clicky"?  How does "cl icky" make the dictionary and not that? or for that matter "cl-icky" and not "click-y"? Wtf? So before I hit "Add to dictionary," should it be "clicky" or "clickey" (or should it be "click-y" or "click-ey")?

Lol...I dunno but for future cases, you should right click on 'clicky' and click 'add word'. That way you can add it to the dictionary yourself

[ch_123]

I noticed the clicking the other day when I switched to my MX11800 for the better part of the day. Although I liked the cherry browns to some degree I found myself wishing for the feel of the Dell again. Which confuses me, because in the wiki Black Alps and Cherry Browns are both listed under 'Tactile and Non-clicky'. I don't think this is true - the Alps definitely have a 'click'.

They are not clicky. The noise is made by bottoming out.

Which brings me to another question - since I like the feel of the black alps a lot on my Dell but I don't like the issue so much with the stiffness of the keys, is there a different type of switch which has the feeling of black alps but is much smoother? The closest I can think of (atm) is my current Key Tronic! Lol...or maybe that's how a Topre feels? I'm a bit confused...

Maybe Brown/Clear Cherry switches.

If the latter then you may want a LINEAR switch (which is what the Topre does have, yes?)

No, Topres are tactile.

Does ALPS have a linear switch?  (I've never even researched that.  For myself, I was only interested in clicky boards, hence my surprise about liking the Dell AT101W at all, but then again, I guess it hasn't gone up against the big guns yet either.  ANYTHING is an improvement over the plastic toys that are generally available...)

Yes. Yellows and Greens. You can make a rough approximation them by removing the leaf from a click/tactile switch.

Does key "stiffness" mean the opposite of "smoothness"?  Could it (in theory) be addressed by some kind of lubricant to ease  friction increasing "smoothness" or is this in reference to how much force is required to initiate actuation or what?

No stiffness is the amount of force required to depress the key. Smoothness is... well, how smooth the action of the switch is. Alps and Cherrys are relatively un-smooth compared to Topres or Buckling Springs.

Aside: Why is spell check underlining "clicky"?  How does "cl icky" make the dictionary and not that? or for that matter "cl-icky" and not "click-y"? Wtf? So before I hit "Add to dictionary," should it be "clicky" or "clickey" (or should it be "click-y" or "click-ey")?

Manufacturers usually refer to them as snap action or click action =P

[Voixdelion]

Interesting how one can learn so much here, even from threads that don't seem to fit what you might be interested in directly...  Perhaps this is the reason for the need to try so many switches too as sometimes the direct  comparisons are only between switches of similar type.  Maybe if enough data is gathered one CAN actually get an idea of what we're looking for (without spending a fortune!) if we've tried the right combination of boards and have the right reference points for comparison.  

Maybe Brown/Clear Cherry switches.

 
Alps and Cherrys are relatively un-smooth compared to Topres or Buckling  Springs.

If the above is a correct example of what you mean in terms of smooth, then I think that perhaps the Topre would indeed be what you are seeking, since I would agree with this being true of the BS vs ALPS, and I'm guessing that lack of smoothness comes from the sliding nature of the mechanisms in the Cherry/Alps switch vs the open space and lack of friction in the BS. (Topre is a frictionless mechanism too, yes?)  Using that as a guide for the definition of "smooth", then my own impressions are that the Model Fs (both xt and at) are smoother than the model Ms which are slightly smoother than the white Alps which are slightly smoother than the black Alps.  REALLY curious now about how the Blue MX will stack up in that given what was said about the MX's being designed with the off-center issue in mind.

Given this info, plus the fact that you've tried the Browns and seem to  prefer the Dells black alps minus the bind from off-center keypresses,  I'm inclined to think that maybe a blue MX board is in order for you, too.   I'll have mine maybe today, so I can let you know how I would compare it  to the Dell at any rate.  But though I have noticed a slight friction, I  haven't had too much trouble with the off-center issue actually  impeding actuation of the keys.

[keyboardlover]

If the above is a correct example of what you mean in terms of smooth, then I think that perhaps the Topre would indeed be what you are seeking, since I would agree with this being true of the BS vs ALPS, and I'm guessing that lack of smoothness comes from the sliding nature of the mechanisms in the Cherry/Alps switch vs the open space and lack of friction in the BS.

That's what I'm thinking at this point too. I'm thinking it might be about time to change that big coffee can of quarters in my room into cash for a keyboard splurge. Never thought I'd say that, but if it's the last $100+ keyboard I buy then it's worth it.

Given this info, plus the fact that you've tried the Browns and seem to  prefer the Dells black alps minus the bind from off-center keypresses,  I'm inclined to think that maybe a blue MX board is in order for you, too.   I'll have mine maybe today, so I can let you know how I would compare it  to the Dell at any rate.

Cool, I'm interested to hear your feedback on the blue then since you seem to understand pretty well what I'm going for. This board rocks, very helpful =)

[Voixdelion]

That's what I'm thinking at this point too. I'm thinking it might be about time to change that big coffee can of quarters in my room into cash for a keyboard splurge. Never thought I'd say that, but if it's the last $100+ keyboard I buy then it's worth it.



Cool, I'm interested to hear your feedback on the blue then since you seem to understand pretty well what I'm going for. This board rocks, very helpful =)

LOL!  Yep - and that didn't even take the 3 months to look back and Laaaaauugh!  

I'll let you know how it compares as soon as it arrives - with any luck you'll find the sweet spot with a little less trial and error...

[patrickgeekhack]

 

I'll let you know how it compares as soon as it arrives - with any luck you'll find the sweet spot with a little less trial and error...

You cannot find your true sweet spot if you have tried them all, can you? Sorry, just a thought. I'm not trying to persuade keyboardlover to buy every keyboard out there :-)

[microsoft windows]

Including this?

[washuai]

Needs (health, accidents, natural disasters, prioritiesetc.) and desires change, as life changes, so there isn't a definite last keyboard.  Same goes for the whole perfection doesn't exist philosophy.  

In spite of that, good research (the keyboards and one's needs, wants) can result in a safe informed decision that will result in keyboard satisfaction, beyond previous experience.  Some Geekhackers do manage to not have shelves filled with keyboard boxes.
I don't need better than cherry browns and I am more than satisfied, with my first mechanical keyboards.  I screwed up my research in that I didn't realize I need a tenkeyless and I continue to risk injury, until I solve the problem.  However, I was dead on about switch choice.  I'd have bought Topre for work though, if I could justify/afford it.  Thanks to the breadth of information here mainly, I can say that with confidence.
I came to Geekhack, because I wanted to make an informed decision, which I did.  

Although, truly, I think if my priorities and/or means permitted it, I'd own 7 keyboards, be working on DIY keyboards which would bring the total to 9 or 11 and would have gifted quite a few keyboards.  That I suppose makes me just as bad as the rest of you.  Although, even with all those keyboards, it'd be one work 87U, one home Filco Brown Otaku Tactile, one back up Kinesis Advantage or 91U, one portable HHKBP2,  one gaming DIY backlit iced red cherries, one wireless ?, and then it just gets silly.  Curiosity boards (clears, datahand, etc.), more DIY backlight color mechs, the Tron razer, & extra gifts just support mech makers.  I'd probably not really get any of the "silly", because friends, fams, the ocean and giving back to the community would come first.

[keyboardlover]

Well there's a good chance I may get a Topre after all. Last night a friend asked me to create a website for his company so I would use the money from that to buy it. This makes sense for me, since it's additional income outside my current job. We'll see what happens, but in the meantime I'm still interested to hear what Voixdelion says about his blues.

[ch_123]

I'm still interested to hear what Voixdelion says about his blues.

Fatal gender assumptions are fatal.

[keyboardlover]

Fatal gender assumptions are fatal.

Haha right after I posted that I thought 'Now Voixdelion is going to be like "Hey I'm a girl!"'. Sorry bout that!

[Voixdelion]

Fatal gender assumptions are fatal.

And redundancy is ...redundant?  (heh heh - jk! couldn't resist...)  

Haha right after I posted that I thought  'Now Voixdelion is going to be like "Hey I'm a girl!"'. Sorry bout  that!

(*Ahem*) Well, truth be told, though I am female, I would have to say that Chad is actually the "girl" in this house. - I, on the other hand, am woman -hear me roar!  LOL

 S'okay, though... everyone else would be doing that too cept I blew my cover a few  weeks ago.  I find it interesting to see what people do so I provide no hints on the profile proper.  

YOU however, get to call me "Goddess of the Running Blues" because I nearly killed myself yesterday, all for the sake of being able to let you know how the blues weigh in...

I had taken the doorbell down to replace batteries and heard some commotion outside in the afternoon - FEDEX!! - and ran to the front door just in time to catch the solid "Thunk" sound of the door being shut and the driver preparing to pull away.  I hollered and set off after him waving my arms, since there was no package that I could see on the way out the door, and I certainly did NOT want to wait until tomorrow to (literally) get my hands on the adesso.  Now, even with two stop signs in a short space away, This guy was totally oblivious to me RUNNING (I do mean, despite the heat and the fact that I do smoke, flat out RUNNING) and waving and hollering as best I could whilst doing the other two.    Please note:  I HATE running.  Especially full tilt like that out of nowhere after sitting on my ass (which still remains perfectly sculpted, though) for 10 years.  It tends to make me feel asthmatic for a day or two when that happens...  

SO THEN at the second stop sign he did the unthinkable horrible thing: he turned right and went UPHILL ...  And on I went... RUNNING!  Up .. the.. . h-..h i ... l.. l .... (which got much steeper than I remembered)  and wasn't sure if...  he was even....  stop . .ped . anywhere near....  or not...  since I couldn't. . .  see . . .  over . . . the rise of .  the.  street.. . .  But I panted at another woman sitting in a car if she'd seen the guy, and she indicated she had (... good?... ) so I trudged on  ...

When I spotted him at the last house on the corner at the top I thought I was about to faint, but pushed on... saw the guy come round the truck and did what I oughta have done to start with... (I have a vocal secret weapon like that dog in the movie "Bolt").. Planted both feet, took a deep breath and ROARED "YO! FEDEX!!" so loudly it startled him.  At least he finally stopped!  (and fortunately the nice lady in the car pulled up and offered me a lift the rest of the way up the hill...)

So the guy digs around in the truck as I waited with my head hung down between my knees gasping for breath, asks the address, and then you know what he tells me?  

He left it at the house in the backyard - just inside the back gate where I had the dog tethered to his doggie run and left it open.   I guess he thought it was for that purpose, though I had forgotten about the gate being open.   SO ... even though I had the thing in my possession now, I hadn't the energy to open it for a good exam anymore...

And here we are!  Me, Goddess of the Running Blues now typing on the newest addition to the household...

More detailed look later, but first impressions are/were mild - now improving though as I adjust to how they feel.  For myself now, I am glad I didn't get the Filco, since the design of the MX switch plus the taller keycaps I think might make that wobble that was talked about a little too much for me.  

As to the specifics against the Dell that we both know, yes, they are smoother to me even right out of the box, though I have read that the Cherries have a "break in" period.  First impression is even that maybe  these blues are actually almost TOO light for me since I almost feel like I have to actively lift up my wrists to keep the weight of my hands from depressing the keys while hovering on the home row.  

More to follow, stay tuned,...

[keyboardlover]

And here we are!  Me, Goddess of the Running Blues now typing on the newest addition to the household...

More detailed look later, but first impressions are/were mild - now improving though as I adjust to how they feel.  For myself now, I am glad I didn't get the Filco, since the design of the MX switch plus the taller keycaps I think might make that wobble that was talked about a little too much for me.  

As to the specifics against the Dell that we both know, yes, they are smoother to me even right out of the box, though I have read that the Cherries have a "break in" period.  First impression is even that maybe  these blues are actually almost TOO light for me since I almost feel like I have to actively lift up my wrists to keep the weight of my hands from depressing the keys while hovering on the home row.  

Wow, I think the title "Goddess of the Running Blues" is well-deserved! However, I can't thank you for nearly killing yourself. I don't have a problem waiting an extra day to hear your response!

Still interested to hear a deeper review though, especially since I'm now thinking about getting a Topre.

So, maybe in the future, please try to refrain from chasing Fedex trucks for the sake of other geekhackers
(Since I think your safety is more important than a board review)

[Voixdelion]

(Since I think your safety is more important than a board review)

Blasphemer! Personal safety is NOTHING! The quest is all that matters....  

My job, as I see it, is to ensure that I don't leave this world with  all the things it took me soo long to figure out still locked up in my  mind and of little use to anyone else! By assisting others in the common cause, I pay my dues to the Geekhack  Guild... What of Arthur without Excalibur?  A new age is upon us and how we interface is going to determine whether and how we are among those shaping that age or among those shaped by it.  Ahead of us lie battles to be fought, and one is at a disadvantage without the proper weapon. It is imperative that one have the write tool for the job!

[keyboardlover]

The only times I've noticed that I find typing on the AT101W to be a bit cumbersome are when I'm tired i.e. in the morning right when I wake up and at night right before bed. It seems that during these times I tend to not hit the keys as directly as I normally do. I'm assuming this would probably be the same as when I'm inebriated as well, although I haven't tested this yet

EDIT: I wonder if the AT101W would be a good work keyboard for me in this case? And then I would just want something a little lighter for home. Also at home noise doesn't matter too much.

[Voixdelion]

In that case, I would think maybe you might really like these blue boards...

Update/additional observations:
 
I have tried to focus my attention on the feel of the switch itself as opposed to specifics about the Adesso in particular, but I must say the Led's are BLINDING on this thing.  Very bright blue and actually painful to gaze directly upon.  I think I saw something about clear nail polish being a remedy for that somewhere, though. I'll have to look for it again.

The "Click" is not so much a problem in terms of noise, I think.   It's a very high-pitched and light "airy" sort of sound.  Imagine the Buckling Springs to be Pop Rocks, vs White ALPS as Rice Krispies in milk.  By comparison, the Blues on the Adesso are definitely less "krispy" than the ALPS but maybe a bit fizzy - like Alka Seltzer tablets as they first start to dissolve.  

And I definitely think there is an improvement in the way they feel after just a short amount of typing on them.  This is becoming a much more enjoyable experience to type on than when first unboxed, even though I have split the time between it and the F AT to see how I feel about that one too.  i don't know if it is a common thing across all boards, but there was a particular odd spongy resistance in the larger double width keys that was not present on the letters/numbers.  That does seem to have become less noticeable but its still present, in the SHIFT keys in particular.

The switch itself is VERY light.  I did have quite a few typos at first from my long fingers brushing adjacent keys accidentally.  I notice that on this board (probably due to the off center keypress centering design of the switch) that that slight brush was often enough to actuate the key whereas on other boards it wouldn't have registered.  That just brought to mind that picture that got me so curious about these switches to begin with:
 
Makes me kinda feel like my fingers have to be as pointy and precise as the stiletto's which are appropriate as the click is slightly reminiscent of the way they would sound on a hard floor (if a small woman in them were a delicate walker).

It's too bad I don't have direct experience with the browns to give a contrast and compare against, but I can confirm the idea of the blue  lacking the same friction in terms of smoothness as we have defined it here.  It's not that the friction is absent entirely, but it seems to come in to play for only the instant of actuation as opposed to being felt along the entire travel of keypress.  It is maybe this that gives me the impression that the length of key travel is shorter than on the Dell, or perhaps it actually is.

Aha! (*illumination of lightbulb over head*) I 've just understood why the clickyness of the keys was a must have for me - it is what allows me to recognize that I can stop pressing!  The tactile bump of the keys in the Dell, though present and noticeable when I am looking for it pushing down one key very slowly, is not pronounced enough to signal me while typing at speed.  The audio feedback is much more quickly recognized by my brain (and possibly because I am generally aurally oriented in my perception of anything) than the tactile and so I would rely on the bottoming out of the keypress to tell me to move on to the next key.  Hence my speed is much faster on the blues and the light touch that required keeping my wrists hovering in the air also means that it's easier to not bottom out the keypress on this board.

Wow - I think I may have just eliminated the Dell from my collection...

     Quote:
                                                 Which brings me to another question - since I like the feel of the  black alps a lot on my Dell but I don't like the issue so much with the  stiffness of the keys, is there a different type of switch which has the  feeling of black alps but is much smoother? The closest I can think of  (atm) is my current Key Tronic! Lol...or maybe that's how a Topre feels?  I'm a bit confused...                      


I think you would like these blues also.  As I said before, the touch is much lighter, which caused me some typos at first until I adjusted to the weight.  This feels smoother and lighter than the Dell, lighter but less smooth than the M, and similar to the white ALPS but those don't seem to have the same "bounce" on the upstroke that the blues do. So far this is looking like a favorite for me.  And it even has a usb hub and media keys - Cool!  Me happy.

Any specific questions?  I'm gonna roll all this up into a single review with some more details on the Adesso specifically too.  What we really need is a "Keyswitch Deathmatch" sub-forum to do a one on one compare by people who have both things and then maybe we can extrapolate from those compares when making decisions between similar things, eh?   For example, now I am curious about how much of what I like about this board is specific to the brand/model as opposed to the mechanism in it.  Anybody that can do a cross examination of this board v the blues on a filco?  I think I made the right choice because I really do think that I'll use those bells and whistles media things, but curious if its possible for a board to cost so much less and still be of comparable quality.

EDIT>> After consideration, this was well worth running after the Fedex truck for if it HAD actually been in it...

[patrickgeekhack]

In that case, I would think maybe you might really like these blue boards...

Is the Adesso plate-mounted or PCB-mounted?

[patrickgeekhack]

So, keyboardlover, have you made your decision yet? Which keyboard are you getting after all?

[Voixdelion]

Is the Adesso plate-mounted or PCB-mounted?

I don't know actually - how can one tell?   There are pics of the innards on the review page.

[HaaTa]

Well, Cherry MX switches can be mounted two ways:



Dunno if you can tell by just looking at the pictures of the adesso.


Edit: Yeah it is plate mounted


Diagram for plate-mounted




For PCB mounted:

[Voixdelion]

So is plate mounted good or not? (Not that it matters to me overmuch, I like the board quite a lot.)

[HaaTa]

Well the PCB mounted cherry switches generally have a softer landing to them (all Cherry made boards that I know of are PCB mounted).

The plate mounted switches are more rigid, so the landing when you bottom out will usually be a bit harder (FILCO boards are plate mounted).

As for which is better, dunno. Depends on what your fingers like (and can handle).


Well, unless you are trying to swap out switch components (replace?). I'm pretty sure it was the PCB mounted ones that were easy/straight forward, and the plate mounted difficult/don't bother.

[keyboardlover]

So, keyboardlover, have you made your decision yet? Which keyboard are you getting after all?

Well...in a word...no

I bought a vintage Minitouch (w/ ALPs) on ebay the other day, because I heard very good things about that keyboard and I'm a sucker for a good deal. I guess we'll see how I feel about that one and go from there. I'm still interested in adding either a blue cherry or Topre to my collection at some point though (but I would prefer not to spend money on both). That's the thing - I would go for the blue cherry but if it's more worth it to spend more on the Topre then I would just do that.

Also I'm a bit concerned that the blue cherry might be too light for my fingers. One thing I like so much about the Key Tronic is that the keys are all weighted differently, for touch typing. I think that's one of the main things that makes this board so comfortable. So I was also thinking - well maybe I'd just forget both blue cherry and Topre and get another Key Tronic!

So...I still haven't made up my mind yet. Very thankful for all the input though!

EDIT: Actually I wouldn't mind owning both, eventually. But buying both at once would break the bank

What we really need is a "Keyswitch Deathmatch" sub-forum to do a one on one compare by people who have both things and then maybe we can extrapolate from those compares when making decisions between similar things, eh?

Agreed...that's a good idea.

[Voixdelion]

Well the PCB mounted cherry switches generally have a softer landing to them (all Cherry made boards that I know of are PCB mounted).

The plate mounted switches are more rigid, so the landing when you bottom out will usually be a bit harder (FILCO boards are plate mounted).

As for which is better, dunno. Depends on what your fingers like (and can handle).
.

So seeing that the blues actually make it possible for me to actually avoid the bottom-out issue its a moot point in this case.  Nifty.  Really liking the Adesso a lot more and more, btw.  If the Filco is actually superior to it, I would really have to get one, but I dunno, I think this ain't so bad.  (Already using that volume control quite a bit...)  Specially for the cost (@80 shipped):

 http://www.provantage.com/adesso-mkb-135b~7ADES09P.htm

[keyboardlover]

So seeing that the blues actually make it possible for me to actually avoid the bottom-out issue its a moot point in this case.  Nifty.  Really liking the Adesso a lot more and more, btw.  If the Filco is actually superior to it, I would really have to get one, but I dunno, I think this ain't so bad.  (Already using that volume control quite a bit...)  Specially for the cost (@80 shipped):

 http://www.provantage.com/adesso-mkb-135b~7ADES09P.htm

The price is definitely better than Filco...but I'm also leery after seeing a lot of talk questing both Adesso and Filco's quality, although you seem to be happy with the Adesso. You got the MKB-135B right?

[instantkamera]

get a das.

[keyboardlover]

get a das.

Why?

EDIT: Nevermind, I just read the Das thread. Seems that the quality of all Cherry blue boards (except those made by Cherry) is argued. Maybe I'll just wait until the G80-3000LSCRC-2 is back in stock (or get one used).

2nd EDIT: The G813000LRNUS2 is in stock and it says it has mechanical switches. Does that one have blues?

[wellington1869]

they all have problems (tho some less than others), which is why its all the more important to buy from a full service vendor where you have some recourse if its not up to your expectations. das is a full service vendor (30 days to return or exchange - no questions asked, no accusations, no hassles, no arguments).

provantage is a full service vendor too.
http://www.provantage.com/scripts/return.dll

[wellington1869]

You're just pissed that both Elitekeyboards (Majestouch) and Ebay seller (Brian O'Neill) have put you on "banned customer" lists.

As I like saying, the "The Customer is NOT always right! In fact you'd be SURPRISED at all the idiots out there".

speaking of idiots... ah, the white knight has arrived!  I was wondering where you were

Oh yea, 'banned' for pointing out (along with others here) the slow response on the filco  (Apparently its a "feature").
As for brian, after he sent me the wrong keyboard, I made the mistake of pointing out that I shouldnt have to pay return shipping for what was his mistake.

The vendors arent always right either rippy, and its clear who's side you're on.

Like i said, the lesson I learned was to stick with full service vendors. Its a lesson I gladly pass on.  The keyboard business is just a business, no one cares about quality and there are few ways to protect yourself when you're paying hundreds of dollars.

[microsoft windows]

I've heard a lot of both good and bad stuff about Brian's customer support. Some people like him and some hate him. But I know that if he put me on a "banned customer list" for objecting to paying return shipping I'd just ship him a nice 1-star review.

[keyboardlover]

You're just pissed that both Elitekeyboards (Majestouch) and Ebay seller Rarekeyboardstore 99.5% Approval (Brian O'Neill) have put you on "banned customer" lists.

As I like saying, the "The Customer is NOT always right! In fact you'd be SURPRISED at all the idiots out there".

Personally, I don't think I would want ever to buy something from someone who has a "banned customer list"

[wellington1869]

I've heard a lot of both good and bad stuff about Brian's customer support. Some people like him and some hate him. But I know that if he put me on a "banned customer list" for objecting to paying return shipping I'd just ship him a nice 1-star review.

I tend to just not leave a review rather than leave a 1-star one; two reasons:
1) I dont care that much (ripster seems to care about that far more than I do)
2) vindictive sellers will often in turn leave you a 1-star review even when it wasnt your fault, ruining  your 100% feedback (on nearly 700 transactions) as I currently have on ebay.  (Of course, ripster would have you believe i'm a bad businessman or something). That doesnt include my 100% rating on amazon selling, too  I'm actually quite proud of those

A lot of people will simply not leave a review for that reason. Fighting unjust feedback is a long drawn out process that is a pain in the butt.

[wellington1869]

Personally, I don't think I would want ever to buy something from someone who has a "banned customer list"

my sentiments exactly. Or vendors who take the time to come on these forums and accuse their customers of making things up.  Seriously, this isnt the ****ing 19th century.

Ripster of course is all for that kind of  behaviour. Its always the customers fault.

Like I said, its not worth fighting over cuz there's no clean resolution to such arguments. The lesson I've learned for myself is to just stick with full service vendors who have publically published 30-day policies for return/exchange. Thats the safe thing to do. These keyboards are not inexpensive especially when it becomes a hobby.

The other lesson I learned was that while we may care about keyboards, the business itself does not. Its just a business. If they can get away with making cheap or problematic keyboards, they will.

This is the (theoretical) value of a site like GH, its value for customers, a place to input all experiences, both good and bad and everything in between.

[ch_123]

Wellington, you'd make a great Catholic with a suffering and persecution complex like that...