Isopropyl alcohol and FKBN104M/EB

[Mur]

Hey there. There was a small mishap with my Filco FKBN104M/EB on the way home from a trip. It was in a bag with a little squirt bottle of rubbing alcohol and a bit of it leaked onto the top right hand corner of the keyboard. The end result is some discoloration around that area and a very discolored forward-slash numpad key. It seems that a coating has been removed or the finish has been striped.

From your experiences with Filco and similar plastics is there anyway to reverse this?

Thank you.

[lmnop]

no.

[lmnop]

no. isopropyl is a solvent and Costar doesn't use the highest quality plastics.

[majestouch]

Mur, the coating used on some Majestouch FILCOs is sensitive to isopropyl and Diatec has been alerted to this. This is not a plastic problem and Costar doesn't make keycaps (obvioustrollisobvious...).

Where did you purchase this board from? I may be able to source individual keys for you if you send an e-mail to support@elitekeyboards.com.

[itlnstln]

This is not a plastic problem and Costar doesn't make keycaps (obvioustrollisobvious...).

Costar outsources keycap production. Interesting.

[majestouch]

Costar outsources keycap production. Interesting.

This shouldn't come as a surprise; keycaps are a specialty, you'd advertise such an ability if you had it.

[lmnop]

Mur, the coating used on some Majestouch FILCOs is sensitive to isopropyl and Diatec has been alerted to this. This is not a plastic problem and Costar doesn't make keycaps (obvioustrollisobvious...).

Where did you purchase this board from? I may be able to source individual keys for you if you send an e-mail to support@elitekeyboards.com.

if you really want to save face why don't you send him a face plate from a dead Filco.

it's well documented what happens to Polystyrene, PVC and other inexpensive plastics when exposed to solvents.

I am well aware Costar didn't manufacture the keycaps. the finish on the Filco Majestouch keycaps is vulnerable to everything including ph levels, acids and oils remember?

[lmnop]

Mur, the coating used on some Majestouch FILCOs is sensitive to isopropyl and Diatec has been alerted to this. This is not a plastic problem and Costar doesn't make keycaps (obvioustrollisobvious...).

Where did you purchase this board from? I may be able to source individual keys for you if you send an e-mail to support@elitekeyboards.com.

if you really want to save face why don't you send him a face plate from a dead Filco.

it's well documented what happens to Polystyrene, PVC and other inexpensive plastics when exposed to solvents.

I am well aware Costar didn't manufacture the keycaps. the finish on the Filco Majestouch keycaps is vulnerable to everything including ph levels, acids and oils remember?

[majestouch]

if you really want to save face why don't you send him a face plate from a dead Filco.

it's well documented what happens to Polystyrene, PVC and other inexpensive plastics when exposed to solvents.

I have already argued with you about the Keycaps you obviously don't remember.

What are your qualifications and references; specifically with Isopropyl?

[lmnop]

What are your qualifications and references; specifically with Isopropyl?

Google is a good qualification.

are you serious? that is your rebuttal?

[majestouch]

Google is a good qualification.

are you serious? that is your rebuttal?

This isn't 4chan; your blatant disrespect to me here will not evanesce into anonymity.

You pronounced your belief. The burden of proof is your's. References please.

[hyperlinked]

Google is a good qualification.

Ugh. There have been too many times that I've seen someone use the Google defense in an argument on this site. There's so much wrong information out there and Google makes is very easy to find it.  

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you can't just say "Google it" and leave it at that.

[ch_123]

The thing about Google is that you need to know what you are looking for

[msiegel]

a little squirt bottle of rubbing alcohol and a bit of it leaked onto the top right hand corner of the keyboard.

how long was it in there?

i've had an uncoated alt key from a Zero sitting in a mm of 91% isopropyl for the last 10 minutes and nothing has happened so far...

[didjamatic]

You forgot to light it with a match, that's step 2.

[msiegel]

ripster's not here, man

[Findecanor]

The word "isopropyl" means that it is supposed to contain propanol-alcohol "on average". It is usually a blend of both heavier and lighter alcohols that on average behave like propanol. This means that one brand of "isopropyl alcohol" could have different ingredients than another brand.

I know that industrial etanol (a lighter alcohol) is made in a process which also pollutes the result with small amounts of acetone -- which we know is a solvent that damages Filco keys. This is why you should never use etanol to clean plastic or painted surfaces.
Alcohol made through fermentation and distillation does not contain acetone, but it is such a slow and expensive process in comparison so that it is never used for anything that is not meant for human consumption.

Edit: I am writing out of experience, not citing anything that I read on Google.. :-P

[ch_123]

So that's why Isopropanol smells like nail varnish remover?

[msiegel]

one brand of "isopropyl alcohol" could have different ingredients than another brand.

yes, the bottle gives no indication of the exact ingredients.

looks like we have a big variable

also, i guess i got lucky when i used alcohol to clean my old model m mini. O_O

[Ulysses31]

I use Servisol branded isopropyl alcohol and it's never damaged any plastics i've used it on, including those "soft feel" ones you find on computer mice and other gadgets.

[Mur]

Wow! Thanks for everyone's help. I am surprised with the amount of replies I relieved so far. It is very appreciated.

Mur, the coating used on some Majestouch FILCOs is sensitive to isopropyl and Diatec has been alerted to this. This is not a plastic problem and Costar doesn't make keycaps (obvioustrollisobvious...).

Where did you purchase this board from? I may be able to source individual keys for you if you send an e-mail to support@elitekeyboards.com.

Thanks for your reply. I purchased my Filco from Elitekeyboards about a year ago I will be sure to keep in touch with you.

how long was it in there?

i've had an uncoated alt key from a Zero sitting in a mm of 91% isopropyl for the last 10 minutes and nothing has happened so far...

The ride home was around 25 minutes but we stopped to get something to eat. I would say around 45 minutes.

yes, the bottle gives no indication of the exact ingredients.

looks like we have a big variable

also, i guess i got lucky when i used alcohol to clean my old model m mini. O_O

This is good to know. I thought the alcohol percentage was the only concern. Thank you.

[Mur]

Here is a picture of the damage so everyone may see the dangers of over exposure to isopropyl alcohol

[ch_123]

Oh dear, if Welly sees this, we will never hear the end of it...

[wellington1869]

Oh dear, if Welly sees this, we will never hear the end of it...

too late.

muh ah ah ha ha. more, more acid on the filco!

[JBert]

What, you can now complain about problems due to improper handling?

Wait, I'll go and see if my MX 11800 is fireproof.

[gr1m]

That's gotta suck (accidentally messing up a nice new keyboard).

[Mur]

What, you can now complain about problems due to improper handling?

Wait, I'll go and see if my MX 11800 is fireproof.

Thanks for your reply, however I do not believe I was complaining in anyway. I am absolutely aware it was my fault lol. I was asking for advice from the community.

[Mur]

That's gotta suck (accidentally messing up a nice new keyboard).

Totally but you live and you learn I am usually overly fastidious when it comes to these things but for some reason I didn't think about the solvent leaking. I made sure the bag was tilted upwards and supported by another box. I drove carefully since I had my computer in the back seat as well. There was just a slight shifting of cargo in the trunk lol.

[Oqsy]

Sorry to hear about that Mur.  

I don't own a filco, and I don't claim filcos to be perfect, flawed, or anywhere in between.  The following is just as a matter of continuation on a thought process brought up before.  

Mishandling is NOT the fault of the company.  However, I have cleaned my model m, northgate, and cherry boards  with 90% isopropyl numerous times with no ill effects.  Concentration, dwell time, and contents of the solution are all variables at play here, and that should be considered.  

Would a filco cleaned with my solution of isopropyl cleaned the way I've used it in the past suffer any damage?  The only way to know for sure would be to replicate the my process with a filco, it could go either way.  

This thread only goes to show that there is a sensitivity to the specific solution of ispropyl for the long duration it was exposed.  This particular incident does not prove or disprove a quality issue.

lmnop, jumping in and suggesting that elitekeyboards needs to "save face" implies there is something wrong with the product.  I'm sure that soaking in solvents is not "intended use" for any filco models, nor any other keyboards on the market, whether they can tolerate it well or not.  Suggesting that majestouch owes something is different than sending him a PM and saying something along the lines of, "hey, this situation this guy is in is a real bummer... do you happen to have a couple key caps and a face plate you could spare out of kindness?"  Grandstanding is grandstanding, and it's pretty transparent.

[microsoft windows]

My Model M can take 90% alcohol. The only thing it did was make the keyboard not look as filthy.

[Mur]

Sorry to hear about that Mur.  

I don't own a filco, and I don't claim filcos to be perfect, flawed, or anywhere in between.  The following is just as a matter of continuation on a thought process brought up before.  

Mishandling is NOT the fault of the company.  However, I have cleaned my model m, northgate, and cherry boards  with 90% isopropyl numerous times with no ill effects.  Concentration, dwell time, and contents of the solution are all variables at play here, and that should be considered.  

Would a filco cleaned with my solution of isopropyl cleaned the way I've used it in the past suffer any damage?  The only way to know for sure would be to replicate the my process with a filco, it could go either way.  

This thread only goes to show that there is a sensitivity to the specific solution of ispropyl for the long duration it was exposed.  This particular incident does not prove or disprove a quality issue.

lmnop, jumping in and suggesting that elitekeyboards needs to "save face" implies there is something wrong with the product.  I'm sure that soaking in solvents is not "intended use" for any filco models, nor any other keyboards on the market, whether they can tolerate it well or not.  Suggesting that majestouch owes something is different than sending him a PM and saying something along the lines of, "hey, this situation this guy is in is a real bummer... do you happen to have a couple key caps and a face plate you could spare out of kindness?"  Grandstanding is grandstanding, and it's pretty transparent.

Thanks for your reply Yes, it is a bummer but I have learned to not dwell on such things. It was an accident and thankfully the damage is only superficial. The lot of us here are particular about these things so it stings us where it counts lol. I showed my girlfriend and she didn't understand what I was talking about until she got it into direct light and was able to angle it.

I agree 110% that mishandling is something the consumer should always be responsible for. I was very impressed that elitekeyboards offered sourcing information for single keycaps. That quick offer of help really says a lot and it is extremely thoughtful.

Again I must concur that this thread should serve as an example of what the solvent could possibly do to materials if long accidental exposure occurs. I included the picture so this thread can purely be used as a reference. I have cleaned said Filco many times with a 1:1 solution of water and isopropyl without problems. The solution in the bottle that leaked was 99% isopropyl alcohol.

Majestouch FILCO keyboards are wonderful and they continue to impress me everyday when I sit down and begin typing.

[JBert]

What, you can now complain about problems due to improper handling?

Wait, I'll go and see if my MX 11800 is fireproof.

Thanks for your reply, however I do not believe I was complaining in anyway. I am absolutely aware it was my fault lol. I was asking for advice from the community.

Oops, I was actually replying to Welly. Sorry to interfere, this thread is surely legit as isopropyl alcohol tends to come up every so often.

[Voixdelion]

I wonder if 91% is less damaging than 70% though, just ooc- maybe due faster dry time?  Sometimes using 91% to clean something is tough just because it evaporates so quickly and I can't even wipe it before its dry again... I haven't melted anything yet, but maybe its just lucky I haven't come across anything sensitive.

As to repairing the cosmetics, maybe a shoe polish or dye (like the rit mods?)

[Mur]

Update: Brian from Elitekeyboards was very kind and sourced some info on getting a new faceplate for my Filco. Within a days time I had the info I needed and was able to purchase a new faceplate. As an added bonus he included a new numpad forward-slash key. Awesome.

The faceplate replacement procedure was very easy and a great success. My FKBN104MEB looks brand new and is no longer a shameful reminder of my mistake

Many thanks to the community and especially Brian for helping me out.

[gr1m]

Good customer service.

[wellington1869]

Welly and lmnop are NOT going to like the direction this thread is going.

lol, dude, the great thing about gh is ALL experiences are documented.  I know you're against that.

[Oqsy]

Way to go, glad this was resolved to everyone's satisfaction (minus the haters )

[Mi9V]

Is 70% ethyl alcohol (ethanol) safer than isopropyl alcohol?

I frequently use it on various surfaces for cleaning and as a mild antiseptic, but I wouldn't want to ruin an expensive keyboard with it!
(My cheap Logitech doesn't seem bothered by it.)

[Oqsy]

I've never had any trouble with denatured alcohol for cleaning, but honestly, soap and water works just as well most of the time.  Why take chances with solvents when soap and water *won't* melt your keyboard and is sufficient?  

And another thing dude, lysol wipes or clorox wipes are damn effective at cleaning up a keyboard, and have never damaged any of my stuff.  The fact that you can't really *spill* a wipe into a keyboard prevents mishaps like the one from the OP, and if you're really worried, you can wipe over them again with a damp clean cloth to remove any residual chemicals and then dry however you prefer...

[Mi9V]

[...] and then dry however you prefer...

Is the microwave oven OK? It probably wouldn't damage the plastics... I'm kidding, of course! :bounce:

[Oqsy]

I'm not sure which breed of troll I'm dealing with, but I'm pretty sure it prefers American made PCs and/or MS operating systems...

[Mi9V]

I'm not sure which breed of troll I'm dealing with, but I'm pretty sure it prefers American made PCs and/or MS operating systems...

Oh come on, calling a newcomer a "troll" isn't exactly nice, you know!

I'm willing to admit that my humorous attempt was a bit, hm, "unlucky", but I do not understand the motivation behind your offensive (or perhaps "defensive"?) attitude.

Okay, it was a bad joke. Perhaps the fact that english is not my mother-tongue doesn't help, either. You could have let it pass, but, no!, you had to call me a troll.

After all, I clearly stated that I was kidding (please re-read my previous post, I'm used to clearly stating the jokes –although I believe it to be bad form– in order to prevent the humor deficient from feeling offended). Also, the thread had already severely derailed. It seems that only senior members are allowed to get off-topic. Too bad, I should have known.

I'll be happy to inform you, though, that you are completely wrong.
Your score is 0 out of 3 :

• I am not a troll.
• I prefer building my computers myself, using hand-picked components. My laptop, which is a chinese-made Lenovo, is the only exception.
• I am a Linux user (I used to run Gentoo, but I'm slowly converting to Debian thanks to the easier maintenance).

EDIT:
For those who didn't "get" my (admittedly bad) joke, what I meant was that putting (for a few seconds) a slightly damp keyboard in a microwave oven would probably dry it completely and at the same time leave the plastic undamaged (which is the subject matter of the thread).
However it would totally fry the electronics!

[Oqsy]

Troll is a term often used affectionately around here... it's thrown around like "buddy" or "dude", and the IBM / MS Windows references are directed toward two specific members of this board who teased and/or berated for "trolling", but most of us here do it and/or comment on it in jest in almost every thread.  Strictly dry and uninterrupted conversations about computer hardware without any teasing, non-sequiturs, and name-calling would be maddening, even to the engineering and comp-sci majors among us  Take it easy, and enjoy the ride.

Being called a troll around here often means you're fitting in just fine  

Also, it is quite possible that you just pulled the ultimate troll move and convinced me you're not a troll and made me feel bad enough to type out this explanation for no real reason.  If so, the part about not speaking English as your first language was a genius touch, because it automatically adds a bit of doubt and guilt to the person calling you a troll.

In any case, it is what it is.  I meant no harm, and I got your joke about the microwave.  Thanks for explaining it though, some of the members here operate on a 2nd-5th grade level and need things spelled out for them.

[Oqsy]

ripster:  for the sake of the thread, would you mind telling us the offending chemical for the keys in your image?

[clickclack]

I figured I would do a little test yesterday to see the longer term effects of different types of alcohol on keys. I do tons of chemical and plastic tests but they are usually not for prolonged periods of time.

From what I know, and I am by no means a chemist but I do believed I am experienced enough to throw some info out there.

Typical isopropyl (rubbin alcohol) in its different concentrations 70-99%  I believe vary only in the amount of water added. I don't think they have other chemicals added. 99% is a stronger solvent but evaporates quickly so it can cause less damage just because its not around that long. Lower concentrations stick around longer so the alcohol can have more effect. Another reason why its decent for disinfecting.

However "Denatured" alcohol is a different story as well as a different alcohol altogether. It's denatured alcohol that has different (and often undefined/specified) chemical additives like MEK. It's so you don't drink it or can't (because its ethanol the only drinkable type). I would worry about this alcohol because of these other possible corrosive properties. But this is not always the case since ethanol is not as potent as isopropyl (being a different alcohol altogether).

So to keep the post clean (heehee) I will post my findings in this next post-
EDIT:hmmm... gimmme a second here I seem to have misplaced my swatches...
hold on...

[audioave10]

I agree, as Methyl Ethyl Keytone is downright dangerous.

[Mi9V]

@Oqsy:

I meant no harm, and I got your joke about the microwave.

I'll interpret that as an apology. In that case, apology accepted.
...

kidding! No need to be apologetic (or feel "doubt" or "guilt" ), and I don't intend to apologize, either, because I consider my [strike]over[/strike]reaction to be normal.

I believe though that I didn't approach your post with the right mentality. I mean, when I clicked the "I-accept-the-terms-of-service" button, I already knew about the lighthearted atmosphere of the forum.

Still, I was unprepared for this:

Troll is a term often used affectionately around here... it's thrown around like "buddy" or "dude"

That left me totally speechless. From various online communities, I've always known the term "troll" as a derogatory one. I'm still unable to utter a single word, but thankfully I can type my response:

It's OK, no hard feelings. :hug:
[My god, isn't that smiley cheesy!]
I feel I now understand you all a bit better.

Also, it is quite possible that you just pulled the ultimate troll move and convinced me you're not a troll and made me feel bad enough to type out this explanation for no real reason.  If so, the part about not speaking English as your first language was a genius touch, because it automatically adds a bit of doubt and guilt to the person calling you a troll.

That certainly wasn't my intention. I'd be a liar though, if I didn't admit finding that thought extremely amusing!


@everyone else:
Sorry the continued off-topic, I just had to respond.
Awaiting clickclack's test results.

[clickclack]

They were right behind me, but I got tired of looking and had lunch! =P
haahaaaaaha

I only had a tiny amount of 99% isopropyl so I did all tests with 70% and Denatured (clean burning with mystery ingredients)

To minimize evaporation and decrease possible enhanced hygroscopic proterties they were left to sit undisturbed partially submerged in the chemicals, with equal volumes of air.
I used a few black keycaps from three different sets for 4 different time periods.
-5min and less normal cleaning exposure
-1hr exposure soak
-6hr exposure soak
-12hr exposure soak

here are my odd and interesting findings... =)

1)keycaps with legends and coating from my stock Filco board-
Isopropyl
-5min, no change/effect
-1hr, slight chalky residue with whitening/clouding on "some" keys and mostly to the tops. The effect is semipermanent.
-6hr, chalky residue on "most" keys which can be wiped off but "most" left a semipermanent slighty cloudy whitening to the key.
-12hr, heavier chalky residue on "most" but otherwise the same as the 6hr test
Denatured
-5min, no change/effect
-1hr, no change/effect
-6hr, slightly chalky residue that can be wiped off, slight clouding/whitening left over that can "mostly" be wiped off too!
-12hr, very chalky residue that can be wiped off but the slight clouding of the plasic is most semi-permanent this time.

2)Filco coated legends replacement set-
Isopropyl
-5min, no change/effect
-1hr, some had a slight chalky residue or whitening, but I was essentially able to wipe/rub it all off
-6hr, some had a chalky residue but some had a whitening/cloudy effect that is mostly permanent, some with very tiny blisters.
-12hr, medium to heavy chalky residue which can be wiped off but leaves a mostly permanent cloudy/whitening on the key.
Denatured
No change/effect at any soak duration

3) Blank Filco keys uncoated-
IsopropylNo change/effect at any soak duration
Denatured
No change/effect at any soak duration

Special notes:
1) no embrittlement noted for any of the keys
2) The formula for the coatings has changed a number of times
3) the keys are not made of a "lesser" plastic.
4) you are good if you just clean them normally, no extended soaking (as with some keys)
5) higher percentage of Isopropyl can damage the coating quicker.

I hope this was of some interest or help
(I have some other info but I need to get back to work)

thanks for reading =)

[Mental Hobbit]

Too many trolls around Geekhack.  

I wouldn't say too many. Putting just one troll on ignore improved the situation for me a lot.
Let me know when he eventually makes his first useful contribution, as you once predicted.

[Findecanor]

I agree, as Methyl Ethyl Keytone is downright dangerous.

MEK is the active ingredient in many plastic adhesives. A very strong solvent of plastics.

Btw, alcohol + chlorine can react to create chloroform, which is also a strong solvent. That is not a very good combination either.