suggestions for Blue Cherry MX? (Last but not Least)

[Voixdelion]

In the ultimate quest to find the typing nirvana I used to experience in the days before rubber-dome took over completely, I have been trying the various "clicky" feedback switches that are the most likely for me to get along with.

I love my Model M of course, but sometimes it feels like a lot of work to type on.  I've got an F/AT on the way soon, so I should be able to let my F-XT go since I can't use it, but I will still have the BS capacitive covered.  I like the feel of the White ALPS more than the black - at least I think I do, but I can't be sure since the one I have is kinda twitchy - but one that is in better shape is on the way that I suspect is going to be the frontrunner favorite once I get my hands on it (literally).  I was quite surprised, though, to find how much I enjoy my Dell AT101w with the black ALPS being that they are "tactile" only and not officially "clicky."

Now the quest is almost complete with one final switch type to measure in the running, and I need some info on the Cherry MX Blues.  I thought I was okay without trying these, but the "if keyswitches were shoes" picture posted somewhere around here made me reconsider the decision to leave that stone unturned.  (Call me crazy but if that picture is a decent analogy I think I could fall in love with those shoes!  They really suit me in concept and, believe it or not, comfort - even moreso than the slippers!)  What is the range  of price for one of these boards  (new or used) and how hard are they to find?   Anyone have a favorite board with this switch they'd recommend?

[audioave10]

I was lucky enough to get one of these recently but they are mostly out of stock.
$66.25 includes fast shipping. You might watch for these again...

http://www.geminicomputersinc.com/g80-3000lscrc-2.html

[elbowglue]

New full sized standard layout cherry blue options:
Adesso MKB-135b (reviewed in reviews section, not NKRO) --Edit Actually this is probably NKRO $77 shipped to me from B&H Photo

Scorpius M10 (Not NKRO, may be unreliable)
About $60 shipped
These have been felt to be somewhat unreliable.

Filco 87 tenkeyless NKRO (great size esp. if you never use the tenkey section)
$131 + tax to me from elitekeyboards.com

Filco 104 key standard layout non NKRO
$120 + tax to me from elitekeyboards.com

Cherry g80-3000 LSCRC-2 (not available anywhere) - this is plate mounted and has a bigger bezel.  This is a sweet keyboard when it is avail
Gemini Computer is out of stock, $66

Rosewill RK-9000 (Delisted at this time)$100 - chiefvalue or from newegg

Das Keyboard
$129 free shipping from Das
$116 shipped to me from sidewinder computers
You need to be careful about what version of the das keyboard you get, I can't keep track of all the different models with similar names but the first ones had transposition errors.

Compact sized cherry blues:
Adesso MKB 125 (compact layout, big enter, small backspace)
$60 free shipping from B&H


For a cheap alternative to these consider the used Laser Keyboard, switches feel almost exactly like cherry blues, double shot keys, big enter but big backspace:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vtg-Laser-clicky-keyboard-PS2-5pin-/370410565917?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item563e30b11d#ht_500wt_947
http://cgi.ebay.com/Clicky-Keyboard-LASER-SX-25-Mechanical-Switches-/120517351156?cmd=ViewItem&pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item1c0f64d6f4#ht_2596wt_930

[didjamatic]

Dolch Pac60 keyboard.

Cherry Blue MX switches
PCB Mounted
Better case than G80-1800
Detachable PS/2 cable
Thick vintage double shot key caps

[audioave10]

That Dolch is super nice but hard to find.

[Findecanor]

There is a Dolch PAC-61 computer in the classifieds section. Perhaps you could ask for just the keyboard. I think that one is in ANSI layout.

Otherwise, I have a spare Dolch PAC-62 keyboard in ISO/UK layout and in quite good condition but it takes a 4P4C cable, like a telephone handset. Making a converter is easy if you have a RJ crimping tool. I posted the wiring diagram in another thread..

[ecru]

I would suggest avoiding the Adesso MKB-125B due to false advertising of n-key if nothing else.

[ch_123]

There is a Dolch PAC-61 computer in the classifieds section. Perhaps you could ask for just the keyboard. I think that one is in ANSI layout.

Otherwise, I have a spare Dolch PAC-62 keyboard in ISO/UK layout and in quite good condition but it takes a 4P4C cable, like a telephone handset. Making a converter is easy if you have a RJ crimping tool. I posted the wiring diagram in another thread..

I'm trying to sell them together. I don't want to sell the keyboard and be left with a computer that is kinda useless without it.

[Viett]

Adesso MKB-135b (reviewed in reviews section, not NKRO)
$77 shipped to me from B&H Photo

I'm surprised that the 135b is not NKRO. I recall ripster saying it had NKRO.

I assume, since you actually own one, you know better.

I would suggest avoiding the Adesso MKB-125B due to false advertising of n-key if nothing else.

Guess that means the 135b's out too.

[didjamatic]

CH_123 is only selling his Dolch in Europe, so if you want one in the USA let me know.

Also, NCBound10 has a Dolch keyboard on ebay right now.

[elbowglue]

I'm surprised that the 135b is not NKRO. I recall ripster saying it had NKRO.

I assume, since you actually own one, you know better.

Guess that means the 135b's out too.

Hmmm.  I don't have the adesso 135b.  I'm sorry about misinfiromation I may have spread I think this 135b is actually truly NKRO according to the article in the review section.

Key test from http://www.microsoft.com/appliedscie...Explained.mspx
I can do:
QWASDF
QWESD and one of: shift, control, alt
WASDX and one of: shift, control, alt
And all 36 combinations of any 6 digits on the numpad all work (I use the numpad for gaming because it's less crooked than "WASD")

From: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10120&&do=comments&highlight=nkro#post187413

[Voixdelion]

EGAD!!  I WAS hoping these would be a little easier to come by than what  I am finding thus far.  Since I've no idea whether I'll love em or hate  em I'd kinda like to keep it under the $100 mark, so that lets out the  most available at the time unless I can find one to test first to decide  if I wanna take that plunge.  I do know that I'll get eminently  frustrated without the num-pad though, which eliminates even more  options!  

And the Cherry model numbering system (if you can call it a system) is  giving me a headache . Thanks for the jumping off points though guys.   I'd certainly be lost without you all.  

What about the scorpius ione with the large letters for the myopically inclined - Blue?  build quality?

And what?  Not a single sarcastic comment about "the last one" ?  C'mon! I'm starting to think Welly may be right about you guys taking it easy on me...

[microsoft windows]

Here's a blue Cherry keyboard for $60.

[Voixdelion]

Here's a blue Cherry keyboard for $60.

Suuuure its $60 NOW... but the auction don't end til tomarra...  
(That one's been on my watch list for a while , but I've been thinking I  oughta have a plan B since I can't afford a bidding 'skirmish', much  less a 'war' )


Oh for heaven's sake.  This is stupid.  Is there any brick n mortar place  in Los Angeles that might carry a board with  the blues that might have one I can TOUCH?  I'll probably be able to decide if I wanna spend another c note on it pretty quick, and it kinda makes no sense to spend more than half of what I could on something that just makes me wanna buy the more expensive one anyway...  Maybe I should just buy on the high end - If I don't like it I can sell it at a bit of loss and think of it like a rental fee.  This much time thinking about it is like an illness!

[didjamatic]

Good board, but will require mod to work with AT/PS2/USB adapters.  Auction not over, so it could get expensive.  Shipping is high since it's the entire unit.

The PAC60 boards are getting nearly impossible to find.  NC has one but he definitely knows what he has.

This auction claims it's a Pac60, but it is not.  It's a later one because it has the RJ style connector cord.  Still a good board but $250 for a board you have to adapt isn't worth it.

The only one on ebay is $375

[Voixdelion]

Otherwise, I have a spare Dolch PAC-62 keyboard in ISO/UK layout and in quite good condition but it takes a 4P4C cable, like a telephone handset. Making a converter is easy if you have a RJ crimping tool. I posted the wiring diagram in another thread..

I have a regular phone jack crimping tool... but the rest of that was like Greek, unfortunately.  I've no idea what you're talking about  

[elbowglue]

Elitekeyboards is located in Diamond bar, ca.  But I don't think they have a storefront.  I'm pretty sure most retail stores will not have any blue cherry boards available to try out.  Fry's closest thing is the siig white alps keyboard.  You might be able to PM majestouch to see if there is some way to try one of the boards out in person.

If Imav is selling any of his pink filco keyboards, you should think about it seriously - my wife loves her pink filco with cherry blues, the keycaps seem mysteriously more substantial compared to stock filco key-caps.  Unfortunatly I'm not a plastic expert and I can't figure out why, probaby different material.

[Voixdelion]

Stupid question, but...
Why does the mkb-135b have audio hookups?  for attaching headphones to the board?

And after considering the Laser boards, I think the one puts me close enough to the actual Blues to not merit the detour since I'd still be wondering about them anyway, but the other might be interesting if it stays under 20 as a whole other experiment in itself, but not relevant to this problem as such.

And so I've been comparing possible MX blue candidates (starting with the list provided by elbowglue, thanks)-  

Of that list, after eliminating the ones that are not to be found anywhere and the ones over $100 as a separate consideration, I am left with mkb-135b and 125b, M10, and one of the two ncbound10 ebays ( That blue Dolch is very pretty, BUT it clashes with my design scheme and is, I think, out of my budget for an unknown switch type I may hate or just be "meh" about) The magitronic is conceivable, however there is its age to consider also (as one seeking the optimal mx blue typing experience, and having read that there is some wear factor involved moreso than with BS boards), and the price may escalate yet.  Still too, I know nothing of the build robustness of that era which may offset its age against flimsier builds of newer boards with QC issues.  I'm inclined to choose the 135 over its little brother, but of the two, am I correct in my impression that the adesso is better put together than the M10?  If so then, which is a better choice between the 135b and the magictronic all things considered?   If not then I may just go with the M10 as the least expensive and available solution.  

AND in a new (annoying) development - the payment that I finally got sorted out last weekend for the aforementioned f-at on the way, has just been reversed without warning, so I may actually have a larger budget for the blues than originally thought.  SO  What advantages if any would be worth the extra cash to go with a filco or das instead?  Or perhaps even the Dolch from ncbound10?

[Dirty Bint]

SO  What advantages if any would be worth the extra cash to go with a filco or das instead?  Or perhaps even the Dolch from ncbound10?

Go for the DAS, their keycaps are better quality, Filco are rumoured to be using recycled plastic for theirs that is inferior.


Rgds
Dirty Bint

[Findecanor]

I have a regular phone jack crimping tool... but the rest of that was like Greek, unfortunately.  I've no idea what you're talking about  

There are different phone jack plugs: some wider, some smaller. The one used for the Dolch PAC-61 to PAC-65 keyboards has four wires and has the designation 4P4C - four positions, 4 connections. This type is common on telephone handsets, and can be found practically anywhere for very little money.  It is not as wide as a RJ45 connector. Many crimping tools can crimp 4P4C, but I don't know if all can do so.

What you need to do is to strip the keyboard-end of a PS/2 cable, insert the individual cables into a fresh 4P4C connector in the right order and crimp it with the crimping tool. That is enough to make the cable.
The plug, however, is on the inside of the keyboard case for some strange reason ... But that is easy. Just unscrew the five screws on the case, open the case, unplug the old cable, plug the new cable in, screw the case back together again, and you are ready to go!

[majestouch]

Go for the DAS, their keycaps are better quality, Filco are rumoured to be using recycled plastic for theirs that is inferior.


Rgds
Dirty Bint

Yea, ok, I'll bite. (I love rationalizations based on horses#*t)

Recycled plastic? Where'd this rumor come from?

Whatever the source, if it IS recycled then how is the inferiority of recycled plastic (w/respect to new plastic) qualified for the utility of keycaps? Has someone done tests or does anyone (rumor-maker or not) even know the type of plastic used in FILCO keycaps? Recycled material, while not having the exact properties of new material, may very well be x% harder than new material and therefore resist shininess longer than new material. Where does your rumor stand then?

Both Das and FILCO are made in Taiwan with materials no one outside of Taiwan has any clue about the source of. There are hundreds of rational ways to argue the merits of each keyboard, but this isn't one of them.

[ch_123]

Why did you even bother replying to that?

[microsoft windows]

They're both made in the same place (probably in the same sweat shops). I bet they don't feel much different.

[Dirty Bint]

Why did you even bother replying to that?

No flies on ch_123 even though this is a fishy subject... :flypig:


Rgds
Dirty Bint

[elbowglue]

I appreciate your dry sense of humor if that is what this post is about.  But people may see your post as reality, not sarcasm.

According to ripster the das keycaps appear to be exactly the same as filco.

Regarding the das, from the Key Reference Wiki by Ripster

Material Appears identical to Filcos in every way including molding patterns. Probably polystyrene.
Font 1980's Science Fiction
Labeling Technology Lasered with standard infill (not as nice as Cherry Corps process but durable)
Weight Weighs same as Filcos (I compared with front row keys)
Front Edge Thickness Same as Filcos (I compared with front row Filco keys)
Other Notes Note lower contrast "dirty" color from charred plastic mixing with paint/epoxy infill.

Go for the DAS, their keycaps are better quality, Filco are rumoured to be using recycled plastic for theirs that is inferior.


Rgds
Dirty Bint

[stickemup]

Here's a blue Cherry keyboard for $60.

And the question is do i wanna buy this for the keycaps to replace my cheapie filco ones? Maybe I can convince the seller to pop that caps lock key for me, to see the back!

They look like the high-quality cherry keycaps to me.

EDIT: Keyboard layout is too different. Won't work.

[stickemup]

Whoops read that post a few up: questions of materials be damned, filco's keys are just made poorly. Too thin, shafts too long, and registration keys sloppy.

[majestouch]

Why did you even bother replying to that?

I asked myself the same thing before I submitted;) Usually the good people of geekhack come to the rescue with good ol'fashioned common sense, but I think I'm on edge from some similar BS user lmnop spouted the other day. It's a conspiracy man!!

[majestouch]

...and registration keys sloppy.

Do you mean the "mounts"? (The place the switch keystems are inserted)

I know I'm supposed to be biased, but I've compared a lot of keycaps, and the mounts of Majestouch keycaps are, on the average, of better consistency in terms of keycap hold and stability. The less-mechanically inclined among us might not notice, but Cherry MX switch stems have a bit of play designed into them, orthogonol to the axis of spring depression, in order to transfer some of the torques created by off-angle key attacks into axial motion; it really makes for a much more comfortable typing experience. However, a taller keycap is going to amplify this orthogonal play (wobble); and the amount of play that is comfortable for one person may not be for another; as different people have different angles of attack.

[didjamatic]

Recycled plastic is not inferior, inferior plastic is inferior.  Please don't spread rumors if you don't have the facts.  

Personally I think Filcos are incredibly well made, I just don't care for the key caps so I swap doubleshots onto them.  But as for the keyboard, i love them.  

Cherry switches behave as they do by design.  They've been proven for 25 years.

[stickemup]

The less-mechanically inclined among us might not notice, but Cherry MX switch stems have a bit of play designed into them, orthogonol to the axis of spring depression, in order to transfer some of the torques created by off-angle key attacks into axial motion; it really makes for a much more comfortable typing experience. However, a taller keycap is going to amplify this orthogonal play (wobble); and the amount of play that is comfortable for one person may not be for another; as different people have different angles of attack.

Thanks for responding!

Unfortunately the difference between theory and execution is often much greater in execution than in theory. Try it for yourself. You could model some of this with Solidworks FEA (Finite Element Analysis), as a good step between design modification on paper and spending money on actual prototyping, but simply replacing the keycaps available with cherry keycaps leaves questions regarding these design decisions.  Analysis of your results could've included testing against known quality examples that currently exist.

As for the precision of the registration being loosely cut to address lateral torque transfer, I would question that from an engineering perspective. The registration should be as precise as practical, to transfer as much energy as available (though the curvature of the key surface could address the issue of finger angle as was the case again with the cherry originals). The materials should be strong enough to not expend said energy in material compression and deflection, measured against the actual required force for switch contact.

But sloppy is as sloppy does!

-> I hope none of this is taken personally, it is not intended to be offensive at all. If you read the boards, I think you will find that among those who care about such things (the reason to purchase such an otherwise perfect instrument as yours is) there is considerable concern about the key caps.

Thanks again!

[stickemup]

I just wanted to add that maybe Filco could consider a keycaps upgrade package, if the cost difference is that substantial that it would impact your marketing strategies?

When people are investigating options like using key caps off of old cherry boards, or going so far as to make aluminum castings, I think an option like that would be very well met!

(edit typo)

[Voixdelion]

Now were getting into some useful info around here!  THAT's  what I"M  TALKING about!

Gimme some of that kinda info mojo on the scorpius and adesso if ya'll got it...  
 gonna buy me a new blue mx board and thats the kinda stuff I wanna KNOW!  

The last few posts have brought a thought about how that little bit of information can significantly influence my decision here.

So then from a physics perspective, given what you say about the keystem lengths how would the following affect my typing experience:  My mom once said I have "simian" hands - like the apes.  Even though I am somewhat small in stature, I have inordinately long hands for someone even of average height, both palms and digits  with significant differences in length of the digits such that the middle finger is the longest and  @ 3/8" (give or take) longer than the ring which is in turn that much longer than the index finger with the pinky being a fair inch or so shorter than the ring finger.  This is one of the things that contributes to my discomfort when typing for long sessions because the palms of my hands are often having to be at odd angles in order to reach all the keys. (This was also why I was uncomfortable playing piano for long periods as well, I think, especially after breaking my forearm in two doing gymnastics - when it healed the calcium deposits on the bones prevented full 180 degree rotation from elbow to wrist because they would collide and only got about 150 degrees without having to cock my elbow out to the side.)  I have tried those split boards and could never get used to them, but do you think that I might appreciate some benefit of the "wobble" described above or would it be more cumbersome to have more play in the keys like that?  

My first knee jerk reaction to the concept is that it might offset some of the discomfort which comes from the adjustments I might make to hit the keys squarely since one of my biggest complaints about crappy boards is typing and finding that key presses don't actuate leaving me with missing letters and such.  A greater range of motion translated into actuation might decrease the typo factor for me, maybe?  Or just the opposite?  

Which do you think?

[majestouch]

Thanks for responding!

Unfortunately the difference between theory and execution is often much greater in execution than in theory. Try it for yourself. You could model some of this with Solidworks FEA (Finite Element Analysis), as a good step between design modification on paper and spending money on actual prototyping, but simply replacing the keycaps available with cherry keycaps leaves questions regarding these design decisions.  Analysis of your results could've included testing against known quality examples that currently exist.

As for the precision of the registration being loosely cut to address lateral torque transfer, I would question that from an engineering perspective. The registration should be as precise as practical, to transfer as much energy as available (though the curvature of the key surface could address the issue of finger angle as was the case again with the cherry originals). The materials should be strong enough to not expend said energy in material compression and deflection, measured against the actual required force for switch contact.

But sloppy is as sloppy does!

-> I hope none of this is taken personally, it is not intended to be offensive at all. If you read the boards, I think you will find that among those who care about such things (the reason to purchase such an otherwise perfect instrument as yours is) there is considerable concern about the key caps.

Thanks again!

The "mounts" (let's refer to things as they are by keycap manufacturers) are not loosely "cut" in FILCO keycaps, the "play" I am referring to is in the keystem of the Cherry MX switch. In fact, FILCO keycap mounts have a tighter grip on the switch keystems than many Cherry keycap mounts. This can verified by attaching a keycap to a loose Cherry MX switch. Try it for yourself.

Young grasshopper, before you start trying to re-invent the wheel and flexing your mechanical-engineering prowess, I'd recommend you slow down and learn the lingo and the legacy.

No need to apologize for any personal offense, none was taken. Your mention of such offense strikes me as an emotional reflex to the guilt you feel for indulging your ego. I don't mean to embarrass you by pointing this out, it's rather nice to converse with people who have a conscience, as we have some sociopaths around here from time to time.

BTW, I read the boards more than regularly (it's my business).

[Oqsy]

Majestouch nailed it...  the "wobble" helps prevent key binding on off-center key-presses, and is inherent in the cherry switch design.  Lower profile key caps (cherry mx11X00), will minimize the sensation of wobble.  Taller keycaps (Filco), will amplify the sensation of the wobble.  

Imagine two buildings side by side in the major city of your choice (I'm picturing Toronto for this exercise).  Both buildings have exactly the same foundation, and the same width and breadth.  The only difference is that one building is 25 stories tall, and the other is 45 stories tall.  On a gusty day, if you were to stand on the roof of the 25 story building and measure sway due to the wind, and then do the same on the roof of the 45 story building, you'd find that the roof of the taller building was moving around quite a bit more due to gusts of wind than the shorter building.  

It's physics, and common sense, but not necessarily fun keyboard talk.  The bottom line is that ALL cherry mx switches have play in them from the factory.  Take off your key caps and try to wiggle the stems.  Feel that?  That's the issue here, and it was a design choice made by cherry to make the mx switches much less prone to binding (I've never ever felt a single cherry switch bind under normal operating conditions).  Compare that to an NMB switch, or a complicated white alps switch...  off center presses = jammed key.  

An illustration of this effect can even be made with buckling spring boards.  Those of you with cherry mx, complicated white alps, buckling springs, and even NMB boards, try the following:
Take your right index finger and press down on the edge of the bottom right corner of your "Enter" keycap.  While pressing down, using the friction of your finger against the keycap, also try to slide the bottom right corner of the keycap directly toward the "Backspace" key.  This should cause a counter clockwise rotation in the stem of the switch.  You'll notice that cherry mx boards don't hesitate at all.  Zero binding.  My Model M 42H1292 "Enter" key locks dead in place, no downward motion whatsoever.  The same with my Northgate Alps. Forget the NMB, those things bind even with a dead center keystroke!  The same can be found to a degree with any switch on any key on the board, but the enter key makes a good example because the size of the key makes the forces at play easier to demonstrate.

[Voixdelion]

That is how I understood it, so my question was would the taller buildings (ie longer stems of the filco) possibly create with the greater range of motion perhaps a more forgiving surface area in terms of the positions of the fingers being not precisely squared due to more extreme variance in length - thereby translating into a more relaxed typing experience than one on shorter stems with less range of motion and by consequence smaller encounterable surface area?

[majestouch]

That is how I understood it, so my question was would the taller buildings (ie longer stems of the filco) possibly create with the greater range of motion perhaps a more forgiving surface area in terms of the positions of the fingers being not precisely squared due to more extreme variance in length - thereby translating into a more relaxed typing experience than one on shorter stems with less range of motion and by consequence smaller encounterable surface area?

Sounds like you've got the idea. It's not marketed as a selling point, but the lateral motion the taller keycaps allow along with the lazy low angled space bar of the FILCO Majestouchs (and similar boards using the same keycaps) do provide a forgiving/relaxed typing experience. To each their own, of course, as some people like a tighter key feel, and should then opt for lower profile keycaps or a different switch technology.

[Voixdelion]

Sounds like you've got the idea. It's not marketed as a selling point,.

Aha- but why not?  That eensy tidbit of distracted discussion might very well have proved the  decision maker for me in my current Which Blues? Muse.  I didn't know that about the cherries in general and were it not for the offhand comment about recycled plastics leading where it did I certainly never would have considered the Filco to have any notable advantage over the Das or even over the alternatives at half the cost.  It was the "simian" hands thing that came to mind in subsequent aftermath of that comment.  Now I am leaning towards the Filco as my frontrunner for just that reason of the slightly longer stem- that had not ever occurred to me as a significant factor before.  

What is that old saying about monkeys typing and turning out the works of Shakespeare?  You could run a campaign suggesting the likelihood of increasing those odds, due to the increased comfort provided to simian hands -
if the monkeys were typing on Filcos!

Hah!. . . I am SUCH a nerd! But I do crack myself up sometimes...

[Oqsy]

Yes, Voix, you are, but you're in very good company here
Just a small technical point before someone jumps in and corrects you with attitude... Yes, technically you are correct that the stems will be longer if you mean the distance from the bottom of the key switch stem to the surface of the key cap, or the "functional stem".  However some will probably nitpick the wording of "longer stem" as implying that the stem of the switch itself is longer, which of course is false.  Myself and 99% of those here know exactly which way you mean it, but sometimes it's the little stuff that can start misunderstandings and/or flame wars

[stickemup]

Young grasshopper, before you start trying to re-invent the wheel and flexing your mechanical-engineering prowess, I'd recommend you slow down and learn the lingo and the legacy.

No need to apologize for any personal offense, none was taken. Your mention of such offense strikes me as an emotional reflex to the guilt you feel for indulging your ego. I don't mean to embarrass you by pointing this out, it's rather nice to converse with people who have a conscience, as we have some sociopaths around here from time to time.

BTW, I read the boards more than regularly (it's my business).

Okay, now you've made what appears to be a thinly veiled ad-hominem attack. I wasn't sure if that's what you were up to before, with the condescending remark about people lacking the engineering knowledge to appreciate your design, which is why I tried to point out this is not a personal attack, but that I merely find your key caps to be of inferior quality to original Cherrys.

However, since you've chosen this path... I have to ask, since a number of people consider your keycaps to be cheap in comparsion to Cherry keys, what you would consider a reasonable course of action:

A) do something about it (tell us how it is being addressed in future products)
B) explain why they are cheap (cost of goods manufactured, etc) and offer us some advice of what may be a solution we can work ourselves, or
B) publicly insult the critics to discredit them.

Which strategy will win in the long run, Karl Rove style politics, or Thomas Edison type solutions?

Lastly, as a manufacturer myself, though not in this vertical market, I'd like to say your presence in this topic is probably not a good idea, if this is your idea of customer service. Whereas you can insult me and deride my experience and knowledge to your contentment, I am just some Joe on the internet, with nothing to lose, who is merely voicing a common sentiment regarding your keycaps, which diminish an otherwise excellent product.

How you deal with this, and what you have to say in response, will leave a very lasting impression on those to follow.

Good day, Sir.

[spolia optima]

+1 for the G80-3000LSCRC-2 from Gemini. It's a fantastic keyboard for DIRT cheap, if you can get it. I picked a few up when they were "out of stock", just called Gemini and they had 'em drop shipped to my front door in a week.

I like the LSCRC so much that I gave a bunch out as Christmas gifts back in 09.

If you have some extra cash, get a Filco.

If you REALLY want a wicked keyboard, get both and swap out the Filco's cheapass ABS keycaps for the premium PBT Cherry caps. It's an easy way to fix the achilles heel of that Filco.

[spolia optima]

Oh, and I am totally behind Majestouch. He sells a quality product that unfortunately gets flak from idiots... largely upset that their parents bought them a tenkeyless and the clicks didn't help them pwn lamers in TF2 or burn new***s on 4chan like they imagined.

[elbowglue]

I'm not sure why you consider Filco Keycaps to be cheap.   I agree with ch123's comparison, in the filco keycaps are "taller" in height than cherry keycaps.  They both bind to the stem (the blue plus) equally tightly, although the filco's bind just slightly tighter to the plus compared with cherry's which bind slightly looser.  But in either way there is no "play" between the keycap and the keystem.

The swtich itself when you compare filco board and a cherry board are the same, except for the fact the filco's are plate mounted, which results in less switch flex away when you lean on the board really firmly.  (that is, the PCB on a cherry board can flex away, the plate mounted boards cannot flex away)

Therefore the sensation that filco keycaps are not on right is because of the added height and the inherent lateral wobble found in cherry switches.

Filco keycaps are made from different plastic compared with cherry keycaps, and they are indeed slightly thinner.

Does this make them "cheaper"? Nope, it makes them "different".  In fact how do you know that the manufacturer of Filco keyboards (not elitekeyboards.com) is saving money on these keycaps?  There is no evidence of this whatsoever.  

Now if we took a vote and we found 90% of people to like the cherry keycaps better than filco keycaps, then it might make sense for the manufacturer of filco keyboards to change the material and thickness and profile of the keycaps to match cherry, regardless of cost savings or cost increase.

[stickemup]

Using a recently calibrated Fowler micrometer, coupled with my lack of key cap lingo and legacy, I made some comparisons of the examples I have at my disposal. I did average of 5 keys each for the numbers below.

The keycap wall thickness of the Cherry is 0.056" versus on the Filco 0.033". The Filco is thinner.

The registration key on the Cherry key cap is .056" wide versus .070" on the Filco key. The filco slots are wider.

The keyhole diameter is .0.162" on the cherry, and 0.176" on the Filco. The Filco diameter is greater.

The Stem length is 0.191" on the Cherry versus .0204" on the Filco. The Filco is longer.

The registration key on the Cherry switch actuator is 0.041" thick, and it stands 0.144" tall, with a diameter of 0.157".

Cherry corp made the switches, and keycaps to be used with them, and there is little question from examining the samples I have here that the Cherry caps are a better fit for the cherry stems.

I have no idea who manufactures the Filco ones. Perhaps the injection molding contractor is having quality issues? Or perhaps the material being used is contracting when cooling, in an unexpected fashion due to an issue with mixing the plastics properly?

If those numbers are not expected, somebody at Filco might want to check their specifications against their contractor's recent items.

[spolia optima]

If that's directed at me, I mean, PBT vs ABS... there's no comparison. With Filco you're paying for plate-mounted switches, NKRO, and a reliable controller.

I love filco 'boards but hell, the caps DO get shiny after about 6 months of heavy use (just like 99% of keyboards out there). There's nothing WRONG with them, they're just made with a softer plastic or w/e.

[spolia optima]

Using a recently calibrated Fowler micrometer, coupled with my lack of key cap lingo and legacy, I made some comparisons of the examples I have at my disposal. I did average of 5 keys each for the numbers below.

The keycap wall thickness of the Cherry is 0.056" versus on the Filco 0.033". The Filco is thinner.

The registration key on the Cherry key cap is .056" wide versus .070" on the Filco key. The filco slots are wider.

The keyhole diameter is .0.162" on the cherry, and 0.176" on the Filco. The Filco diameter is greater.

The Stem length is 0.191" on the Cherry versus .0204" on the Filco. The Filco is longer.

The registration key on the Cherry switch actuator is 0.041" thick, and it stands 0.144" tall, with a diameter of 0.157".

Cherry corp made the switches, and keycaps to be used with them, and there is little question from examining the samples I have here that the Cherry caps are a better fit for the cherry stems.

I have no idea who manufactures the Filco ones. Perhaps the injection molding contractor is having quality issues? Or perhaps the material being used is contracting when cooling, in an unexpected fashion due to an issue with mixing the plastics properly?

If those numbers are not expected, somebody at Filco might want to check their specifications against their contractor's recent items.

I think you've looked just a tad bit too much into this... There is also variation between cherry caps from different years, different materials, etc. Some cherry boards have lubricated stems... some don't.

I say play around with caps combos until you find what suits you best, what's most comfortable for you... It's not all about the raw data. It's flippin' subjective brah.

[elbowglue]

Sorry my comment previously was directed at stickemup.

@stickemup, thanks for taking those measurements.  Ripster has made a lot of observations already about keycaps in general, if you haven't already noted these threads they are quite useful:
All About Keys

Key Manufacturer Reference

I am pretty sure that the Filco keycap manufacturer was not trying to copy cherry keycaps, in fact they were going for a different shape all-together.  

To quote ripster again:
From Top To Bottom. IBM Model F/AT/Unicomp. Topre. Cherry Corp. Filco.


To state filco keycaps having quality issues, well, I think it's by design, not by accident.  Athough who knows for sure except for the manufacturer.

[stickemup]

Oh, and I am totally behind Majestouch. He sells a quality product that unfortunately gets flak from idiots... largely upset that their parents bought them a tenkeyless and the clicks didn't help them pwn lamers in TF2 or burn new***s on 4chan like they imagined.

LOL.

I wasn't giving anybody flak. I was dissatisfied with the key caps on an otherwise perfect keyboard. My dissatisfaction was not expressed to the manufacturer, but on a keyboard forum where I hoped to get some advice. It was shortly thereafter dismissed as a lack of knowledge by the manufacturer who reads the forums, and his response seemed non-sequitur to me.

My dad died before the invention of the home computer, but I'd like to think he would've bought us something like this when we were kids, and under those circumstances I wouldn't have said anything other than, "Thanks, Dad". When I was a kid, the latest greatest things were pellet guns and Czechoslovakian dirt bikes; we'd hot-rod cars from the forties and fifties, not computers!

Ah, sweet progress!

[stickemup]

Oh, and I am totally behind Majestouch. He sells a quality product that unfortunately gets flak from idiots... largely upset that their parents bought them a tenkeyless and the clicks didn't help them pwn lamers in TF2 or burn new***s on 4chan like they imagined.

LOL.

I wasn't giving anybody flak. I was dissatisfied with the key caps on an otherwise perfect keyboard. My dissatisfaction was not expressed to the manufacturer, but on a keyboard forum where I hoped to get some advice and a workable solution. It was shortly thereafter dismissed as a lack of knowledge by the manufacturer who reads the forums, and his response seemed non-sequitur to me.

My dad died before the invention of the home computer, but I'd like to think he would've bought us something like this when we were kids, and under those circumstances I wouldn't have said anything other than, "Thanks, Dad".

When I was a kid, the latest greatest things were pellet guns and Czechoslovakian dirt bikes; we'd hot-rod cars from the forties and fifties, not computers! Ah, sweet progress!

[stickemup]

Sorry my comment previously was directed at stickemup.

@stickemup, thanks for taking those measurements.  Ripster has made a lot of observations already about keycaps in general, if you haven't already noted these threads they are quite useful:
All About Keys

Key Manufacturer Reference

I am pretty sure that the Filco keycap manufacturer was not trying to copy cherry keycaps, in fact they were going for a different shape all-together.  

To quote ripster again:
From Top To Bottom. IBM Model F/AT/Unicomp. Topre. Cherry Corp. Filco.

Show Image

To state filco keycaps having quality issues, well, I think it's by design, not by accident.  Athough who knows for sure except for the manufacturer.

I read that thread.

Profile of the key notwithstanding, the critical measurements effecting key stability would be the fit of the registration key of the actuator in the stem's keyhole. As shown above by measurement they are looser than the cherry keycaps, either by design or accident.

Discussion of the switch itself having wobble in it, by design, has nothing to do with wobble introduced by the keycap itself. As for the profile of the key, there seems to be some indication by others that Filco purposefully made the stem taller, material thinner, and keyhole looser, in order to reintroduce the flex of the PCB mounting method that was lost when adding the metal base plate.

All I know is I love the board with the cherry keycaps, can barely tolerate the Filco ones, and I guess that's why there's room for so many other keyboards. After all this, I'd really like to just return it or sell it and get something that doesn't feel unstable when I type. The wobble, by intention or flaw, introduces a learning curve that is obviated by the cherry key caps. So I will get something else, where I don't have to train my fingers to use it.

Call it a personal preference, and let's just move on.