Filco Majestouch... keys wobble much?

[stickemup]

I received a new filco majestouch FKBN87MC/EBEK keyboard today... i like the feel so far and it's fun to type on, though I am still getting used to it over the apple chicklets board or the G15 (which is admittedly garbage, though that particular garbage is packed up hoping for a cash-back return). I don't consider this an overly loud keyboard. It's not silent but it's reminiscent of typing on my old apple keyboards.

One small thing I  have noticed, even in comparison to the compaq 11800  board, is that the keys wobble a lot. With not very much fingertip pressure at all you can rest your finger on the keys and deflect them in all directions. Is that normal? I realize that this is a light touch board, but it seems that they wobble more than they should, being the finger pressure to wobble them is so minimal.

It's a small beef, but the keys just seem a bit cheap for a nice keyboard.

I'll follow up after a couple days.

[stickemup]

Wow!

The keys from the Compaq board (15.00 on ebay) fit this! High quality with durable printing... less wobble, thicker plastic, and 100% compatible. Pictures will follow.

[washuai]

I'm glad you found your solution.  Pix are generally appreciated.  All the cherry MX (black, clear, blue, brown, & red) key caps attach via the same cross, so you can swap.  The keys that have problems transplanting are ones the ones that are larger than the single keys.
The other issue is not all cherry switch keyboards have the same key profile.  
While the Filco key caps aren't my favorite, the wobble is the least of the reasons I want to swap them for better plastic.

[stickemup]

WOWSA!

Okay, the keys make a difference. They are now vastly improved. They are stable, feel better on my fingertips, with those gninormous home position nubs. I'm liking this a lot.

As washuai said, I wasn't able to swap all the control keys. But you know what? I kinda like that sitting here using it, as I can definitely tell what keys I am on. The remaining control keys are just slightly higher, and it works well.

These compaq keys must have been made in the golden age of keycaps. They look bombproof in comparison, side by side.

Finished product:

[stickemup]

Here's the board zoom showing the keycap height difference. Not much at all, and it works for me.



Here's the keys side by side. Take note of the incredible precision of the compaq keycap. Who made the compaq keycap, Cherry? Those appear to be original works of art, whereas the Filcos look like a copy in comparison. The registration hole is perfectly cut, so it is very stable on the key, as are the stabilizer bars. Whoever made that keycap, knew their business very well.

[gr1m]

Looks great. I'd be annoyed with having a mix of keycaps myself. I'd like it to be uniform.

[stickemup]

Looks great. I'd be annoyed with having a mix of keycaps myself. I'd like it to be uniform.

On old telex and twix machines, the control keys were all slightly different than the alpha/numerics, and the caps lock was bi-level; this particular mix is really not very different, and it feels quite natural. The benefit of key stabilization cannot be overstated, as it lifts the keyboard up a notch in quality. IMHO Filco needs to fix their keycaps, if not on all their boards, definitely on their tactile touch board, where the difference is more pronounced.

I replaced the ez ones I did for a test, but once I stop playing with it, I am going to be swapping as many as possible.

[Findecanor]

Did you notice how thicker the walls of the MX-11800 key caps with stabilizers are compared to the alphanumeric keys? All the double-shot key caps from older Cherry keyboards were that thick.

[Dirty Bint]

I heard a rumour that Filco were using recycled plastic for their keycaps that came from the Moombai slum dog scavengers. This recycled plastic cannot be moulded and manipulated as thick as the fresh stuff hence the poor quality keycap.


Rgds
Dirty Bint

[aegrotatio]

For this kind of money, I would never get a Filco with wobbly and inconsistently-centered keys.

[audioave10]

I love the layout of that Filco...but this concerns me.

[stickemup]

I heard a rumour that Filco were using recycled plastic for their keycaps that came from the Moombai slum dog scavengers. This recycled plastic cannot be moulded and manipulated as thick as the fresh stuff hence the poor quality keycap.


Rgds
Dirty Bint

Well, that makes a bad situation worse.

Ultimately, this key issue kills the board for me. The keys I was able to replace with the compaq keys are good - however, I don't have the right height keys for the function keys, as they are in a different configuration with appropriate key levels for the compaq. Additionally the other keys don't fit, due to differences in keyboard with window's keys, and the differences in the caps lock center post.

Part of the wobble issue would be corrected by lowering the height. It's obvious, and sad that they didn't catch that (the reason cherry made the keys that way).

I am kicking myself for being cheap. I should've bought the happy hacker or realforce.

[elbowglue]

HHKB / realforce has a totally different switch (rubber dome)
Consider this mod:
Make your filco doubleshot

Call me crazy I actually like the filco profile keycaps more than the MX 11800, after having owned both.

I think bint was being sarcastic heh.

By the way if you want to unload your Filco PM me I might wanna buy thanks.

There is no other cherry blue keyboard with this form factor that can be purchased.  If you like the lack of tenkeyless, the standard layout, presence of NKRO, the plate mounting, the cherry blue switch, you have the "one keyboard".  There is pretty much nothing that comes close to it.  For this reason I would not advise having buyers remorse about this keyboard, although of course I cannot determine your happiness with the purchase!

My 2 cents anyhow.

[stickemup]

HHKB / realforce has a totally different switch (rubber dome)
Consider this mod:
Make your filco doubleshot

Call me crazy I actually like the filco profile keycaps more than the MX 11800, after having owned both.

I think bint was being sarcastic heh.

By the way if you want to unload your Filco PM me I might wanna buy thanks.

There is no other cherry blue keyboard with this form factor that can be purchased.  If you like the lack of tenkeyless, the standard layout, presence of NKRO, the plate mounting, the cherry blue switch, you have the "one keyboard".  There is pretty much nothing that comes close to it.  For this reason I would not advise having buyers remorse about this keyboard, although of course I cannot determine your happiness with the purchase!

My 2 cents anyhow.

And so began the quest for the One True Cherry Keycap!

[majestouch]

IMHO Filco needs to fix their keycaps, if not on all their boards, definitely on their tactile touch board, where the difference is more pronounced.

I address your wobble concerns in another thread here.

Whatever the case, most of the players in the mechanical-consumer market are rarely in a financial position to order up entirely new tooling for keycaps:( but we can always hope;)

[washuai]

HHKB / realforce has a totally different switch (rubber dome)
Consider this mod:
Make your filco doubleshot

There is no other cherry blue keyboard with this form factor that can be purchased.  If you like the lack of tenkeyless, the standard layout, presence of NKRO, the plate mounting, the cherry blue switch, you have the "one keyboard".  There is pretty much nothing that comes close to it.  For this reason I would not advise having buyers remorse about this keyboard, although of course I cannot determine your happiness with the purchase!
.

I actually like the feel of my Cherry board better than my Filco, I don't know if it is the PCB mounting or just the key caps.  However, I need a tenkeyless layout at work, more than I need that feel.  I don't own a hacksaw, so the compaq isn't a cheaper solution than the tenkeyless Filco with browns.  Ok, the irocks board, would be cheaper, but the layout is crap and it is lower quality than the Filco.  There really isn't anything beating tenkeyless Filco with browns cost/size/layout/availability wise.

[stickemup]

I address your wobble concerns in another thread here.

And I address your wobbling over my keycap waffling here.

[whininggit]

How about the Cherry G80-1800? It's not a tenkeyless, but is only 1 key wider. I think they all have Cherry blacks though, so you would need to buy a G80-1800 plus a Compaq board to harvest the brown stems and springs from.

[stickemup]

How about the Cherry G80-1800? It's not a tenkeyless, but is only 1 key wider. I think they all have Cherry blacks though, so you would need to buy a G80-1800 plus a Compaq board to harvest the brown stems and springs from.

Hmmmm... Like this one here on ebay, for $29.95?

Is it normally that cheap for this model?

[whininggit]

The G81 is the cheap membrane model. You need the G80, which has the mechanical switches.

[stickemup]

Hmmmm... Like this one here on ebay, for $29.95?

Is it normally that cheap for this model?

That is a dishonest seller. His advertisement is all about the keyboard being the G80-1800, with mechanical switches.

"Tech. Specs.

The Cherry G80-1800/G81-1800 keyboard is an industry standard when you need a reliable keyboard option for your "intense" users. Although you might think a keyboard is just another accessory to your systems, the G80-1800/G81-1800 gives you the peace of mind that comes with the reliability, durability and functionality of Cherry products.
With key switch ratings of over 50 million per key, making an investment in Cherry G80-1800/G81-1800 keyboards for your user means more carefree service, less sticking keys, less swap-out problems and fewer calls to your help desk...conserving precious man-hours for both your staff and your users.

The Cherry G80-1800/G81-1800 comes with either 104 or 105 key configurations, and you can choose from 3 different key actions: Linear, Soft Contact or Keyclick. Eliminate silly service calls today by choosing the G80-1800/G81-1800 for your deployment.

Features and Benefits:

Very High Quality - for demanding users and applciations
Wear resistant keycap symbols are easily cleaned
Linear, soft contact and keyclick key actions
104 and 105 keys
Uses Cherry MX Key switches on Gold Crosspoint technology
Precision switching"

Then, lower in the details he mentions that it's not the G80-1800 he is actually selling, but a G81-1854lamus-0 with sealed membrane.

What a jerk.

[elbowglue]

I think the seller did a bad copy and paste job.  I was also unhappy that it won't be delivered by that hot chick on the bottom of the page

These cherry boards are a ilttle tricky to figure it out, the majority of those on sale on ebay are "g81" which is not a good board at all

[stickemup]

I'm tellin' ya, your sawed off compaq is looking better and better!

[stickemup]

Apparently the G80-8200 has the proper centered capslock key, and the correct spacing for the bottom row!

I was looking at this article, and noticed the left row line up on the back of the PCB.

That would pretty much solve it for me.

-- Elitekeyboards pointed out the hardball terms on the bottom of the page - no returns, no returns, no returns! So I'll just live with it, though I will be unloading the palm rest.

[microsoft windows]

Did you notice how thicker the walls of the MX-11800 key caps with stabilizers are compared to the alphanumeric keys? All the double-shot key caps from older Cherry keyboards were that thick.

They must have been good keys then. The double-shots on my ALPS keyboard are pretty thin.

[whininggit]

Even the current Cherry-made keyboards have thick-walled keycaps, but they are laser etched rather than double-shot.

Some aspects of the G80 boards seem to be an exercise in economy (although I'm fine with it), but the keycaps are one area where Cherry do not cut corners.

[typo]

as everyone knows i wore off the legends on the filco. that could be from abuse though. coating them with a laquer. they do wobble, some are crooked. my enter originally stiuck. the board flexes if you jam on it. it is far from perfect. it is however seemingly as good as the non cherry corp boards get.

i thought topre was higher quality but plenty of people have had issues with that as well.
i prefer cherry mx blue to anything though so no topre for me.

i actually think the adesso which i also own is comparable to the filco. it has it's issues as well. the frame is much heavier though. plus it can be had for $70.

there just does not seem to be a superquality cherry blue board as of now.

i really want that compaq board for the keys! that at least will make me a lot happier with the filco. i am going to go look for one right now! it is perfect for me since it covers all the keys i wear out. intrestingly i have never worn out an enter on any board.

[penpoints]

One small thing I  have noticed, even in comparison to the compaq 11800  board, is that the keys wobble a lot. With not very much fingertip pressure at all you can rest your finger on the keys and deflect them in all directions. Is that normal?

Yes, it is perfectly normal for there to be some play in the keys. They were designed this way, as Majestouch has explained so clearly. This is not a design flaw. Other wonderful keyboards - the HHKB Pro and the Topre Realforce 87U, to take two examples - have some play in the keys. It's silly to call this a defect.

These Filco keyboards were designed in Japan and manufactured in Taiwan. EliteKeyboards is the American distributor/seller. I have nothing but praise for EliteKeyboards: great products, fair prices, and good support (email questions answered promptly, etc.). I hope Majestouch will continue to share his expertise with the Geekhack community.

[ch_123]

Even Beam Springs have quite a noticeable degree of wobble in them (well, it's more the slider as opposed to the keycap, but same difference). If the pinnacle of over-engineered keyboards does it, there's either a good reason, or it's too hard to prevent it... and I somehow doubt that it's the latter.

[stickemup]

Yep, all true, and I certainly don't blame the importer for making such options available to us, for the quality of the keys, or cherry's refusal to supply keycaps to go with their switches. It can hardly be construed as his fault.

I'm just trying to find suitable keycap replacements, an old familiar story.

.....

I think the G80-8200 boards have the correct 1st row; I'd really like to see somebody's capslock mount!

[itlnstln]

There really isn't a switch of almost any variety that does not wobble.  Maybe scissor switches, but really, even they wobble a little.

[stickemup]

There really isn't a switch of almost any variety that does not wobble.  Maybe scissor switches, but really, even they wobble a little.

The switch wobble is minimized with the lower profile snug fitting cherry keycaps. You can try this yourself, in a side by side test, if you have one of the keyboards using these keycaps, and a cherry keycap laying around. I used the keys of a compaq board - I wish they all fit, because it types like a dream. Or it puts me into a dream typing.

I can't tell you how much I love this board with those keys; the filco tenkeyless is sublime.

[Mental Hobbit]

Even the current Cherry-made keyboards have thick-walled keycaps

Nope. Current Cherry-made (white) keys have very thin walls, giving new boards a terribly hollow sound and cheap feel. Allegedly black keys are better, but I don't know these from my own experience.

[ch_123]

The keyboards themselves are also nowhere near as well built as Costar ones. At least the more modern ones anyway.

[itlnstln]

Nope. Current Cherry-made (white) keys have very thin walls, giving new boards a terribly hollow sound and cheap feel. Allegedly black keys are better, but I don't know these from my own experience.

The new black ones are still thick.

[itlnstln]

The keyboards themselves are also nowhere near as well built as Costar ones. At least the more modern ones anyway.

I think this depends on model, too.  I have heard that the G80-3000 with reds is better built than the average 3000 as it is supposed to have some kind of steel plate and NKRO.  The G80-1863 HUMUS I have is certainly better built than the SPOS and 3000 I have.  Only if Filcos had better caps...

[Mental Hobbit]

Only if Filcos had better caps...

... and original Cherry MX stabilzers, then they'd be pretty much perfect.

[itlnstln]

... and original Cherry MX stabilzers, then they'd be pretty much perfect.

True that.  The Cherry stabilizers are nicer, too.

[elbowglue]

Material wise, my fav cherr keycaps are
1) Ricercar SPOS (cherry, POM black)
2) Pink Filco keycaps (dunno what this is made out of)
3) Compaq MX11800 (PBT)
4) Filco's (not ABS not PBT)

Profile wise, I prefer the Filco profile over the Cherry profile.

I am intrigued by ducky keycaps (lasered ABS) though, I wonder how those would feel.

Oh yeah and I still maintain that Filco keycaps sit on cherry stems well without any movement at that contact point.

[ch_123]

Dolch keycaps <3

I guess they fall under the category of doubleshot Cherry keys, probably POM too.

[itlnstln]

The double-shots on my G80-1863 are my favorite followed closely by Topre then Cherry's lasered caps (in black).

[ch_123]

Beam Spring keycaps, almost a solid block of plastic -



They're better than the older Selectric keycaps - which had no support around the notch, and therefore would break a lot.

[typo]

in case this has not already been answered here: do the keys on cherry mx boards wobble because there is play in the mx switch assembly? or is it because the keycaps do not fit firmly on the stem? all my cherry mx boards wobble to different degrees.

thanks

[clickclack]

The key wobble is basically 100% switch wobble. NOT the keycap itself.

There are many dynamics to the switch stem and keycap stem but they have very, very little to do with the ultimate wobble. It's the sliding stem on the switch that has "play". Taller caps make this more obvious just because they are further from the point of "play" and thus travel a longer arc. However some keycaps (like some double shots and some of my keycaps) wobble just a little bit less because they are so thick they either hit the swich housing before they reach full play or they hit the top of the swich housing, minimizing rocking.

So as a recap (get it...heehee)-
It does  not matter how tightly the keycap holds onto the keystem it has to to with the "play" in the switch. Cherry and WYSE boards have some of the most loose fitting keys compared to other keycaps and boards. Filco has some of the tightest fitting keycaps. Neither of these particular properties have anything to do with wobble.

=)

[nanu]

key wobble is basically 100% switch wobble. NOT the keycap itself.

Nice summary.

Yep. Forgive me for glazing over much of the heated debating ITT but keycap tilts can exist. Tilts keep keycaps from being square with the switch plunger and actually induce the plunger wobble to one end during a keypress, assuming you do not ever truly "become one with" a given keyboard. However, I generally doubt most people (myself included) obsess over this overlooked minutia, because yes, existing key switch designs are far from being perfect.

I mean, in a perfect world where the keyboard still reigns as an input method, each key should include sensors and autostabilizers that also detect force vectors applied, thusly making typing feel like sex for your fingers through realtime, interactively infinitely-variable multi-force curve adjustments.

[typo]

thanks for the answers. i figured that was what it was. i just checked a well used topre and they wobble as well. not as much as cherrys though. i thought cherry was "state of the art". i guess either it is the nature of the design or they are not built to very close tolerences.

so then i wonder why the op is complaining about filco. as i figured, all my cherry boards have wobbly keys. they don't woble when they are pressed as in typing. just if you sit there and wobble them. of course when the boards are just sitting none of the keys line up but i don't really mind that.

[stickemup]

It does  not matter how tightly the keycap holds onto the keystem it has to to with the "play" in the switch. Cherry and WYSE boards have some of the most loose fitting keys compared to other keycaps and boards. Filco has some of the tightest fitting keycaps. Neither of these particular properties have anything to do with wobble.

=)

The key wobble SHOULD ONLY BE THE SWITCH, but that's not always the case.

I can tell the differrence, my Filco keys are perhaps a mold defect, if what you are saying should be the case. As I've said again and again, both here and in other threads, these keys are loose. Doesn't matter, the sales rep says they are perfect as is, doesn't even want to inspect them for himself, so I am stuck with it. If you're such a believer, I invite you to just buy my board, as it's unusable for me.

I took measurements of the registration keying in the keycap mount, and it's got a lot more slop than a cherry or compaq I compared to.. the cherry is a newer cherry G80-8200.. and it still has thicker keycaps too. So saying they are tighter is surprising to me. Mine are definitely not - I have one key (the T in particular) that feels like it is about to fly off when I am hammering on it. And I also have a Deck legend ice, which is cherry blacks. So I know keyswitch wobble from keycap wobble. It has no sloppy wobbling issues, neither does the cherry or compaq (newer cherry, older cherry).

I wish we could get past the part of the conversation where I am being told about keyswitch wobble; that's not what I am talking about. Unless the statement you are making is that CHERRY BLUE SWITCHES have MORE keyswitch wobble than Cherry Blacks, Whites, or Browns (I have all three types).

I am talking about keycap wobble, from loose fitting mountings and flimsier materials.

Defects? Absolutely not - just ask anybody on this forum.

LOL.

[hyperlinked]

The key wobble SHOULD ONLY BE THE SWITCH, but that's not always the case.

How can you tell the difference? If the keycaps actually wobble significantly then at least a few should fall off if you turn your keyboard upside down and give it a good shake.

All of my keycaps wobble on my Filco including my double-shot Geekhack keys. It hasn't been a problem for me that they do.

[stickemup]

Shaking it nothing happens, so I went further and gave it a slap on the back and the T, Del, B and [ key fell off. I am surprised the K didn't too.

EDIT: I've deleted the rest of what I posted, quite simply because it's no longer a public dispute. I'm taking this up with CC company, and moving on.

Peace.

[majestouch]

Doesn't matter, the sales rep says they are perfect as is, doesn't even want to inspect them for himself, so I am stuck with it.

I assume you're referring to me. When and where did I say these things?

LOL.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your candor and intent (happens), but I don't find people putting words into my mouth very funny.

As for your contention, I find it physically impossible for a Cherry MX mounting to wobble and yet still have have enough grip and friction between the mount and switch keystem for the keycap to not fall off (as mentioned by hyperlinked). This is due to the physical properties the orthogonality of the two rectangles which make up the cross shape keystem provide. These rectangles work together, elegantly so, to counteract twisting and torques made parallel to one leg/rectangle of this cross. A simple thought/physical experiment is to imagine or construct a Cherry MX switch that has a single rectangle mounting (exactly like the beamspring mounting ch_123 posted a pic of); such a shape *would* allow wobble orthogonal to the length of the rectangle, particularly if the mounting was too big for the keystem. This scenario can be extended to a cross shape mount having one of the rectangles wider and out of tolerance while the other has nice tight fit, but because of good tolerance along the length of one rectangle, the friction present would prevent quick shifting movements, making it very hard to detect keycap wobble in tandem with the wobble present in the keyswitch itself.

Therefore, if your keycaps are detectably wobbling atop the keystems, as you've stated, this would mean that BOTH rectangular cuts which make up the cross mount are so out of tolerance with the keystem that the keycap would be resting there frictionless. Such a keycap would hardly stay put, if at all. They'd pop right off. Heck, the recoil of the spring of a depressed switch would probably be enough to pop such an ill-toleranced keycap several centimeters into the air.

Since I have never seen flying FILCO keycaps before, that would indicate to me a very low probability that you have an entire board of flying keycaps, since as far as I'm aware, keycaps are molded in dies made independently for each size and not as an entire keyboard sets; so the possibility of a defective moldings happening independently and then serendipitously being assembled onto one keyboard among thousands of boards made every month, is highly unlikely. However, if you have a few switches that are flying off, then I wouldn't even pause to argue and would send replacements with my apologies.