Please help me find my ultimate gamer keyboard with ÆØÅ

[moby]

Hello dear fellow geeks.

I'm about to purchase a keyboard, dedicated solely to playing StarCraft 2.. and well perhaps get a little bit of work done aswell :-)

Everything is ready, hotkeys have all been customized through an MPQ editor, Ctrl and Shift keys have been remapped to B and Q respectively with KeyTweak, etc. etc. All I'm missing now is the actual keyboard.

One thing is for sure, I had enough of the ****ty membrane keyboards, they're horrible for typing aswell as gaming.

I want to try my hand with a mechanical keyboard, only heard good things about them so far.

I'm a bit picky though. The keyboard should be a tenkeyless style, or whatever it's called. No numpad whatsoever, which means I can have room for a rather large mousepad.

Secondly I'm blessed with living in Denmark, where we also have ÆØÅ for a total of 29 letters in the alfabet (whoever came up with that idea ...I swear to god...), it would be nice to have those characters on the keyboard aswell.

Finally as the keyboard is primarily used for gaming, I would prefer red, black or brown cherry keys.

Anybody has any idea where to find a keyboard that has all of the above? The Steelseries G7 actually has ÆØÅ and black cherry keys, but it's way too bulky as it also has a numpad. The Majestouch Tenkeyless Linear Force on the other hand literally gave me a hard on the first time I saw it!, I can't go with it though as it is lacking the ÆØÅ keys, sadly hehe

Someone help me find my beloved mechanical keyboard please.

PS: funny story, the moment I hit "create new topic" button my mouse went dead, at first I thought this site was so extreme that when writing a new post the mouse somehow got disabled on purpose. Of course that wasn't the case... the batteries were dead haha (nono I'm not using this mouse for SCII).

[itlnstln]

You might want to talk to Bruce from The Keyboard Co.; you can find him in the Vendor forum.  He might be able to help.

[gr1m]

Well, if the Steelseries 7G is too bulky, you might want to look at the Steelseries 6Gv2. It still has a numpad though. I have the US layout, I don't know if they have a "ÆØÅ" 6Gv2, but this is what mine looks like (if you want an idea on the shape and size):

[moby]

It doesn't look bad, and there is definetly a version with ÆØÅ as the founders of steelseries are Danish.

It's lacking features that I never use compared to the G7 so that's fine aswell... but it's .. it's huuuuuuuuge!! :-)

Do cherry make keyboards anymore? haven't really been able to find any by them. They're big enough that they might do keyboards with Danish letters.

BTW do you know if steelseries keyboards (G7 and G6V2) are made by http://www.diatec.co.jp/en ?? they sure look like those keyboards.

[itlnstln]

Cherry does still make keyboards, but finding what you want is challenging at best.  Finding something like a G80-1800 in a Danish layout may be pretty much impossible.

[ch_123]

It doesn't look bad, and there is definetly a version with ÆØÅ as the founders of steelseries are Danish.

It's lacking features that I never use compared to the G7 so that's fine aswell... but it's .. it's huuuuuuuuge!! :-)

Do cherry make keyboards anymore? haven't really been able to find any by them. They're big enough that they might do keyboards with Danish letters.

BTW do you know if steelseries keyboards (G7 and G6V2) are made by http://www.diatec.co.jp/en ?? they sure look like those keyboards.

Unicomp might do them, or be able to do them. Even if it isn't listed as an option on their site, they may be able to help.

Wait - didn't see your tenkeyless requirement... How similar is the Swedish layout?

[Ekaros]

While searching cheaper alternative for upcoming Filcos Swedish/Finnish layout at keyboard co. I started to think about DK layout g80s, they should exist, but in reality doesn't or atleast I have been unable to find...

DK is about the same for special charaters exept a few changes like ½ and § switched and locations of \ and | and ofc Ö Ä...

[ch_123]

Well, for a compact keyboard, you don't have a huge amount of alternatives.

[itlnstln]

Well, for a compact keyboard, you don't have a huge amount of alternatives.

And that's in any language.

[Necroleachate]

Maybe buy a tenkeyless filco and try to get danish caps from steelseries? Or if possible buy both.

[Infinite north]

The picture for the 7G on steelseries website has the keys you are wanting, so I am sure you could find it somewhere.




I recently bought an access is matrix board similar to this image of hoggy's. I wanted this board specifically as a gaming board since it has the small form factor, programmability, nkro, sturdy build and matrix layout. I personally think someone who plays SC would benefit from a matrix layout as it can allow one hand to reach more keys with less movement if set up right.

[zmurf]

Wait - didn't see your tenkeyless requirement... How similar is the Swedish layout?

The Swedish layout is almost identical with the Danish. The only difference it that the Swedish keyboard have "Ö Ä" instead of "Æ Ø" and that "|" and "\" is placed on different locations.
Swedish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Sweden.svg
Danish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Danish.svg


@Moby:
Why is it so important that the keyboard actually have ÆØÅ keys? I just bought a new Cherry G80-3000 keyboard, but since I wasn't able to get a Swedish I bought one from Germany instead. At least all the keys is the right shape and size. And is it really a problem that it says Y where it should say Z, and that there are no Å key but a Ü instead?

For me one of the most important aspects is that the enter key have the right shape. This is because if the enter key is of the wrong shape some of the other buttons will also be moved around. And since I'm from Sweden and used to have all keys arranged according to the big vertical enter key I only want to buy keyboards that have that kind of enter key... for example German keyboards.

I'm not really sure which sort of enter key that is of which standard. But I believe that the one mostly used in Europe is the ISO standard enter key and the one used in the US is the ANSI standard enter key. And then there is the "backward L" shaped enter key that I just find horrific and for some reason is used on the I-Rocks and Steelseries keyboards (which is the main reason why I wouldn't buy one of those keyboards).

As I have understood it its something like this (please correct me if I'm wrong):
ISO enter key. (Europe style. The one I prefer)


ANSI enter key. (US style. Said to be better for typing since it's on home row)


"backward L" shaped enter key (Is this a JIS standard key? Anyway it's commonly used in Russia. Personally I don't get this kind of enter key. It takes up so much space on the keyboard that you have to move at least one key to a whole other location of the keyboard (If you look at the Steel series picture in the post before mine you see that there is a button missing to the right of the Ø where the "' *" button should be). Used on the I-Rocks and Steelseries)

[NamelessPFG]

I loathe those reverse-L-shaped Enter keys, moving the Backslash/Pipe key usually down below and beside Right Shift instead of its rightful place just above Enter and beside Right Bracket. I've actually disregarded several otherwise-very-promising keyboards because of it, including the famed Northgate OmniKey line.

I will admit, though, living in the States, I'm obviously going to be used to the US layout, which includes the ANSI-style Enter key. I'm just used to reaching over to the left edge of it whenever I hit it, whereas those Europe-style keys would force me to use a greater reach.

[zmurf]

I will admit, though, living in the States, I'm obviously going to be used to the US layout, which includes the ANSI-style Enter key.

Yepp. It all comes down to what you are used to. I would actually like to "relearn" myself to use ANSI enter key keyboards since I like the idea that the enter is more reachable from home row. But the problem is that I'm not always working on my own computer, and I would go ballistic every time I would sit down at somebody elses keyboard and there enter key is at another place than what I'm used to. Also it's quite hard to find laptops with horizontal enter keys in Sweden, and since I move a lot between using my workstations keyboard and my laptop keyboard, this would be a real problem for me.


Anyway. My recommendation to moby would be to ignore the demands for ÆØÅ and just get a German style Cherry G80-1800LPC (LCP = Cherry MX black). I bought my G80-3000LQC (LQC = Cherry MX clear) from Jacob Elektronik in Germany. They have the Germen style G80-1800 with the European ISO style vertical enter key for reasonable prices here:
(in white) http://www.jacob-computer.de/Eingabeger%E4te_Tastaturen_Cherry_Classic_Line_G80-1800_-_Tastatur_-_PS-2%2C_USB_-_105_Tasten_-_Hellgrau_-_Deutsch_%28G80-1800LPCDE-0%29_artnr_220821.html
(in black) http://www.jacob-computer.de/Eingabeger%E4te_Tastaturen_Cherry_Classic_Line_G80-1800_-_Tastatur_-_PS-2%2C_USB_-_105_Tasten_-_Schwarz_-_Deutsch_%28G80-1800LPCDE-2%29_artnr_414347.html

[vils]

I have since long accepted the fact that I cant get the KBs I want in my native Swedish layout. I have KBs with both Japanese and US layout and its easy to adapt. I belive you can buy a KB with any layout and adapt. Just ignore the lettering on the keycaps.

[zmurf]

I belive you can buy a KB with any layout and adapt. Just ignore the lettering on the keycaps.

Ignoring the key caps is easy. And adapting to a layout can be done quite quickly, yes. But not in minutes. When you have to use different keyboards several times every day it's very hard to adapt to different keyboard layout. Then it's better you go for the layout that is mostly used where you live. But what characters there is on the different key caps is most often totally irrelevant. (At least for me that almost never looks at the keyboard.)

[Ekaros]

Normal alphabets aren't the issues as I see I can type those from muscle-memoery even as I haven't yet learned 10-finger system... Real issue for me is Alt Gr + key characters as I can't recall all of those, atleast I think so...

[ch_123]

Ignoring the key caps is easy. And adapting to a layout can be done quite quickly, yes. But not in minutes. When you have to use different keyboards several times every day it's very hard to adapt to different keyboard layout. Then it's better you go for the layout that is mostly used where you live. But what characters there is on the different key caps is most often totally irrelevant. (At least for me that almost never looks at the keyboard.)

I can switch between the US and UK layouts without thinking. Didn't take much practice either.

That said, they're basically the same thing...

[zmurf]

I can switch between the US and UK layouts without thinking. Didn't take much practice either.

That said, they're basically the same thing...

Thats good for you.
Myself I have, as I written before, real troubles when changing between keyboard with verical and horizontal enter.

But we are all diffrent.

[Findecanor]

Anyway. My recommendation to moby would be to ignore the demands for ÆØÅ and just get a German style Cherry G80-1800LPC (LCP = Cherry MX black). I bought my G80-3000LQC (LQC = Cherry MX clear) from Jacob Elektronik in Germany. They have the Germen style G80-1800 with the European ISO style vertical enter key for reasonable prices here:
(in white) http://www.jacob-computer.de/Eingabeger%E4te_Tastaturen_Cherry_Classic_Line_G80-1800_-_Tastatur_-_PS-2%2C_USB_-_105_Tasten_-_Hellgrau_-_Deutsch_%28G80-1800LPCDE-0%29_artnr_220821.html
(in black) http://www.jacob-computer.de/Eingabeger%E4te_Tastaturen_Cherry_Classic_Line_G80-1800_-_Tastatur_-_PS-2%2C_USB_-_105_Tasten_-_Schwarz_-_Deutsch_%28G80-1800LPCDE-2%29_artnr_414347.html

The G80-1800 is just a little bit wider than a tenkeyless. None of the smaller Cherry keyboards have NKRO, though.

There are also lots of Cherry keyboards on eBay.de. Most of them are for the same price as in the link above, but there are many cheaper ones too. There is a seller that sells new G80-1800s with black Linear MX-switches for 5 Euro a piece, several ones each week. (You can even buy 100 of them from the seller if you want to)
Postage to Sweden is usually 9 around Euro with Deutsche Post, or 20 Euro with DHL.
Even if the seller has not stated in the auction that he/she sells only to Germany: Ask the seller, and more often than not you will get a positive reply.
One problem, though, is that not that many Germans on eBay have PayPal. Money transfer from a Swedish bank to a German bank costs .. about 9 Euro. (!)
What I did, the last time that I bought something from Germany was to send a banknote in an envelope. I got the keyboard a few days later, but that was no problem.

Because Cherry makes also rubber-dome keyboards, you want to make sure that you get a G80 - series keyboard. Learn also the codes in the Wiki for the various MX switches.

[itlnstln]

Because Cherry makes also rubber-dome keyboards, you want to make sure that you get a G80 - series keyboard. Learn also the codes in the Wiki for the various MX switches.

The product code doesn't (necessarily) tell you what switch is in the 'board.  Cherry codes are pretty vague, but this blog pretty much describes the majority codes you will see out there.  I think the wiki portion about product codes is incorrect.

[Soarer]

The G80-1800 is just a little bit wider than a tenkeyless. None of the smaller Cherry keyboards have NKRO, though.

Well... there is the Raptor Gaming K1, basically a G80-1800 with NKRO and a different logo on it. German layouts (at least) are still available, for about 75 euro.

[EverythingIBM]

I loathe those reverse-L-shaped Enter keys, moving the Backslash/Pipe key usually down below and beside Right Shift instead of its rightful place just above Enter and beside Right Bracket. I've actually disregarded several otherwise-very-promising keyboards because of it, including the famed Northgate OmniKey line.

I will admit, though, living in the States, I'm obviously going to be used to the US layout, which includes the ANSI-style Enter key. I'm just used to reaching over to the left edge of it whenever I hit it, whereas those Europe-style keys would force me to use a greater reach.

Do you mean loathe or loath? Kidding.

I don't like those L shaped keys either. Shrinking the shift keys is a rather stupid idea as I use them a lot.

[moby]

Ok, you guys convinced me to drop the ÆØÅ requirements. A swedish FILCO Majestouch 87 keys would be very nice, not sure such a piece exist though. Might end up buying one with a US layout. I'm really in love with it :-)

One thing I'm not so sure on is whether or not I should get one with brown or black keys. Even though it will promarily be used for gaming, I just have a hard time imagining no tactile feedback whatsoever. I will probably end pushing the buttons all the way down rather than just 2 mm.... on the other hand I don't want to much tactile feedback. Man this is really difficult when you can't try out the keyssets :-(

[Soarer]

Cherry sales manager...



...got confused...

[Funnykids]

...

One thing I'm not so sure on is whether or not I should get one with brown or black keys. Even though it will promarily be used for gaming,...(

 If you buy it for Starcraft 2 then get a brown switch. Believe me

 In Starcraft you care about the rhythm of your actions rather than the response time of your keyboard. And a brown switch will bring joy to your hand and keep your action in correct phases

 Furthermore you will see yourself spamming your button very hard (especially if you play terran) and a black switch will make your little finger feel pain.

[vils]

Money transfer from a Swedish bank to a German bank costs .. about 9 Euro.

Not any more, new EU regulations. It's much cheaper.

[Minskleip]

Thats good for you.
Myself I have, as I written before, real troubles when changing between keyboard with verical and horizontal enter.

But we are all diffrent.

You're making an issue out of nothing. It's only one square to the right - man up!

[SpatiallyAware]

Ok, you guys convinced me to drop the ÆØÅ requirements. A swedish FILCO Majestouch 87 keys would be very nice, not sure such a piece exist though. Might end up buying one with a US layout. I'm really in love with it :-)

One thing I'm not so sure on is whether or not I should get one with brown or black keys. Even though it will promarily be used for gaming, I just have a hard time imagining no tactile feedback whatsoever. I will probably end pushing the buttons all the way down rather than just 2 mm.... on the other hand I don't want to much tactile feedback. Man this is really difficult when you can't try out the keyssets :-(

I personally greatly prefer the browns over blacks.  As I'm sure you know, it's all personal preference..  But to me, the blacks are too stiff for regular usage.  On a kiosk machine or for light typing they're not bad but repeated keystrokes are fatiguing.

[zmurf]

You're making an issue out of nothing. It's only one square to the right - man up!

I think your missing the point. The problem isn't that the enter key is placed differently, that part is not a problem at all. But where do you think that the keys that is placed around the enter key goes when the enter key is placed differently? Exactly. They are placed on other places on the keyboard. And the most problematic is that the key that sits  between left shift and Z on vertical enter keyboard are moved to above the enter key instead.

Since I touch type and work as a programmer which means that I actually use those keys, it becomes an issue for me when they aren't on the right place. And since I do a lot of consult work and also help other people with their code this result in that I work on lot of different computers. Which means that I write on different keyboards. If I each time would have to stop the look for the special keys that are moved between the different keyboard layouts this would make me work much more ineffectively.

[Rajagra]

And the most problematic is that the key that sits  between left shift and Z on vertical enter keyboard are moved to above the enter key instead.

Not quite, though it seems that way.

The key between the left shift and Z is a key that the U.S./ANSI boards simply do not have.

The key to the bottom left of a vertical (ISO) enter key is the key to the top right of the horizontal enter on a U.S./ANSI board.

It's how the language driver maps the keys that makes it doubly confusing.

[ch_123]

I always found that key between left shift and Z to be somewhat awkward to hit. YMMV I suppose.

[Zen]

Our options are limited :
A :Steelseries 7/6 G
 (Cherry Blacks, has full-sized num-pad)
B: Raptor Gaming K1
 (Custom Cherry G80-1800, Cherry Blacks ,
  reduced size num-pad)
C : Cherry Compact-Keyboard G84-4100
 (Clicky Cherry, very small footprint !!)
are pretty much it.
Anything else you need to import yourself and with transport-costs
it can get pretty expensive .

The Raptor seems like your best option (trade-off/compromise),
it's about 5 cm smaller than the steelseries and has nice
Cherry-keycaps, included are some extra caps, locks and a key-puller.
Being a "custom" Cherry-board it may even have some "collectible" value ..
There's a test (in Danish) here : http://www.tweakup.dk/article/1119/dk/

If you live in Copenhagen you can try both A&B in the same real-life shop,
Phønix Computers on Falkoner Alle ..

[British]

I always found that key between left shift and Z to be somewhat awkward to hit. YMMV I suppose.

I find it to be quite the opposite... pretty easy to hit with the pinkie.
I used (not using right now since I'm on an ANSI MX-11800) it a lot when gaming... when games recognize it, that is.

[Zensuji]

I loathe those reverse-L-shaped Enter keys, moving the Backslash/Pipe key usually down below and beside Right Shift instead of its rightful place just above Enter and beside Right Bracket. I've actually disregarded several otherwise-very-promising keyboards because of it, including the famed Northgate OmniKey line.

I will admit, though, living in the States, I'm obviously going to be used to the US layout, which includes the ANSI-style Enter key. I'm just used to reaching over to the left edge of it whenever I hit it, whereas those Europe-style keys would force me to use a greater reach.

Well being a UK person I just switched to US layout and I find it not only visually a lot more pleasing its also a lot better for typing and gaming for me. Love the bigger left shift straight away. And dont miss the big "L" enter at all.

[goneim]

Well... there is the Raptor Gaming K1, basically a G80-1800 with NKRO and a different logo on it. German layouts (at least) are still available, for about 75 euro.

+1. I've been using K1 for several months while playing SC2 since the beta and I love it!

I'd like to advise you to get a cheapo keyboard in Danish layout and a compact one especially for gaming purposes. Except for K1 the i-rocks 6230 might also be a good choice, they both have NKRO and USB Hub 1.0/2.0 ports. Definitely check them out!

Edit: K1 has black switches and 6230 has brown ones.

[NamelessPFG]

Well being a UK person I just switched to US layout and I find it not only visually a lot more pleasing its also a lot better for typing and gaming for me. Love the bigger left shift straight away. And dont miss the big "L" enter at all.

Do you have any issues with typing out things like £ or € with a US layout? (Perhaps there's a slightly altered one that turns the right Alt into Alt Gr for that, based on the printings I've seen of some boards here?)

[Jalal]

If you buy it for Starcraft 2 then get a brown switch. Believe me

 In Starcraft you care about the rhythm of your actions rather than the response time of your keyboard. And a brown switch will bring joy to your hand and keep your action in correct phases

 Furthermore you will see yourself spamming your button very hard (especially if you play terran) and a black switch will make your little finger feel pain.

Thank you very much. Searching for more than 1 hour in different websites to hear an explanation on how browns are compared to blacks in RTS. Especially when you mentioned rythm i turned to wanting browns, i've used the raptor k1 blacks for warcraft3 (200apm) and they weren't a big upgrade to rubber domes.

Bad thing is that now i can scratch the 6Gv2 from my list and save some more money since all the browns seem much more expensive. But i won't look at price just to get something in the end i am not satisfied with.

[microsoft windows]

I'm sure you could substitute ae for the letter ash and other similar things.

[British]

Do you have any issues with typing out things like £ or € with a US layout? (Perhaps there's a slightly altered one that turns the right Alt into Alt Gr for that, based on the printings I've seen of some boards here?)

Nothing AutoHotKey can't handle.

[goneim]

Thank you very much. Searching for more than 1 hour in different websites to hear an explanation on how browns are compared to blacks in RTS. Especially when you mentioned rythm i turned to wanting browns, i've used the raptor k1 blacks for warcraft3 (200apm) and they weren't a big upgrade to rubber domes.

Bad thing is that now i can scratch the 6Gv2 from my list and save some more money since all the browns seem much more expensive. But i won't look at price just to get something in the end i am not satisfied with.

I'm not sure whether I get it or not, but mechanical keyboards won't necessarily increase your APM. Like I used to play SC with my cheapo logitech keyboard and my APM kept around 210. I went back to SC with my K1 as the beta was down and my APM was about the same. I mean that's quite natural. Never heard anyone has increase his APM efficiently just because he's got a nice mechanical keyboard.

[Infinite north]

Never heard anyone has increase his APM efficiently just because he's got a nice mechanical keyboard.

I quote myself on this. remember to reprogram the layout.

I personally think someone who plays SC would benefit from a matrix layout as it can allow one hand to reach more keys with less movement if set up right.

Show Image

[Jalal]

Hahah i meant like when you play with 200apm you type very fast which should intensify your feel you have while gaming. Well, so i thought it was a important factor to mention when i give an opinion on switches.

[ch_123]

Do you have any issues with typing out things like £ or € with a US layout? (Perhaps there's a slightly altered one that turns the right Alt into Alt Gr for that, based on the printings I've seen of some boards here?)

See this.