Author Topic: Seeking Cherry Red (Read 13087 times)

Udongein · « **on:** Fri, 30 July 2010, 17:31:07 »

Hey Geekhack!

First time poster here. I was fascinated to learn that there is more to keyboards than I ever imagined. In fact, it was just yesterday that a friend (who is an engineering student) pointed out to me why I was having such a hard time playing video games with my Cherry Blue Das Keyboard. I play a lot of shmups (Touhou) and other fast-paced action games, and when I play, the delay in each keystroke means I can't react as fast as I can... and need to. I hope you all will forgive me, I don't quite know how better to describe it... something to do with the reset point being too high or something. The button isn't responsive to being pressed fast enough because it has to go up and down first.

Long story short, I'd like to get a Cherry Red. Topre was also recommended, but reports seem to be mixed as to their use in fast-paced gaming.

Where can I buy a Cherry Red keyboard? I live in Toronto, Canada. Willing to pay well for it too, as long as it's NIB.

nanu · « **Reply #1 on:** Fri, 30 July 2010, 17:39:40 »

Welcome to Geekhack, you useless little bunny

From what I read here, Cherry Reds are supposedly rare/not used anymore.

But then I searched and this turned up:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10774

Interesting find. I'm tempted to get reds now.

Also, I guess you're describing tactile keys as being not great for gaming, which is all the better for wanting linear switches...

Udongein · « **Reply #2 on:** Fri, 30 July 2010, 20:51:00 »

Quote from: ripster;207897

Try China.

I would, but she's asleep at the gate!

I looked at the link. It looks good, but I am a bit concerned about the price. Under $100 for a high end keyboard from Hong Kong? Has anyone from Geekhack bought from them before? I skimmed the thread that has the eBay link... it doesn't look like anyone there actually bought it from there.

What do you guys think?

stickemup · « **Reply #3 on:** Fri, 30 July 2010, 22:07:08 »

Tell you what I think. I think that the guy in this thread states that he bought one from the ebay seller in the thread you are questioning, and is currently doing back-flips because he got one of the best cherry boards made without having to travel personally to Asia to get one. I'd happily trade my filco cherry blue tenkeyless + cash for one of those G80-3494s, and when mine sells I'll be sending my money to the same place.

That's what I think, little bunny.

nanu · « **Reply #4 on:** Fri, 30 July 2010, 22:54:15 »

Peeve: knowingly inaccurate eBayers (lol $89 shipping).

Anyhow, being part of the cheapskate/DIY crowd, I'd rather first try modifying a Cherry black board's springs, maybe even by painfully cutting each.

I think ripster has tried brown springs on black switches, for "faking reds." I forget what of it, how comparable they are to the real mccoy.

The Chinaman in me wishes I had contacts with Chinamens who could whip up a bunch of [strike]bootle[/strike]homebrew red springs (and maybe plungers if they differ from blacks') so we could just plop those into other MX switches... Or surely a website that sells Springs of All Sizes exists by now!

stickemup · « **Reply #5 on:** Fri, 30 July 2010, 23:08:17 »

Quote from: nanu;207946

Peeve: knowingly inaccurate eBayers (lol $89 shipping).

Peeve: Ebay fees, which apply to the base price and not the shipping. Ebay has never provided the amount of service you would expect for the charges they rake in; good for him on keeping some of his money. Besides, ever ship international? It's a PITA, the customs paperwork takes forever to fill out.

The board should be about $174.00 USD landed state-side, so his pricing is nuts-on.

nanu · « **Reply #6 on:** Fri, 30 July 2010, 23:12:34 »

Touché, it just hurts when you see shipping costing more than the item

stickemup · « **Reply #7 on:** Fri, 30 July 2010, 23:25:20 »

Quote from: nanu;207952

Touché, it just hurts when you see shipping costing more than the item

I hear you bud! It's usually a sign for concern.

Infinite north · « **Reply #8 on:** Fri, 30 July 2010, 23:37:39 »

Don't cut black springs down, they either feel very mushy afterwards or there is very little noticeable difference. you would be better off doing the brown black spring swap.

Udongein · « **Reply #9 on:** Sat, 31 July 2010, 01:27:28 »

Thanks for posting that link stickemup. I feel a little more confident it's the real deal.

There's just one concern left...

If any of you play shmups like Touhou... I'm wondering if Cherry Red is the best choice for me.

Basically, flat out... do I want a Cherry Red or a Topre?

gr1m · « **Reply #10 on:** Sat, 31 July 2010, 01:34:47 »

At that point it becomes linear vs. tactile, and a Topre isn't even everybody's favourite choice for tactile switches. For example, itln stln likes Browns more. Blacks (and I'm assuming reds) have a very unique linear feel. I love my Cherry Black keyboard. They're great for gaming, and great for typing if you like them. I've heard however that Reds are more typing-friendly than Blacks which is good news I guess.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #11 on:** Sat, 31 July 2010, 09:40:16 »

Quote

Tell you what I think. I think that the guy in this thread states that he bought one from the ebay seller in the thread you are questioning, and is currently doing back-flips because he got one of the best cherry boards made without having to travel personally to Asia to get one. I'd happily trade my filco cherry blue tenkeyless + cash for one of those G80-3494s, and when mine sells I'll be sending my money to the same place.

That's what I think, little bunny.

Wow I had no idea those would be so popular but I'm happy someone got one and loves it! Maybe I should get one...

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

SpatiallyAware · « **Reply #12 on:** Sat, 31 July 2010, 10:19:24 »

Quote from: Udongein;207975

Thanks for posting that link stickemup. I feel a little more confident it's the real deal.

There's just one concern left...

If any of you play shmups like Touhou... I'm wondering if Cherry Red is the best choice for me.

Basically, flat out... do I want a Cherry Red or a Topre?

For quick repeated keypresses you'll want something that activates when the key is bottomed out. Which would be the topre.

But then, the topre tends to 'break-in/wear-in' the more they're used - so I wonder if this game requires the exact same keys to be pressed over and over?

On the other hand, the Cherry switches are rated for 50 million cycles so you're not going to wear them out.

Udongein · « **Reply #13 on:** Sat, 31 July 2010, 15:25:58 »

Quote from: SpatiallyAware;208019

For quick repeated keypresses you'll want something that activates when the key is bottomed out. Which would be the topre.

But then, the topre tends to 'break-in/wear-in' the more they're used - so I wonder if this game requires the exact same keys to be pressed over and over?

On the other hand, the Cherry switches are rated for 50 million cycles so you're not going to wear them out.

If there's any game that would wear a keyboard out, it's Touhou.

Still don't really know what to do. Hoping there's someone out there that plays shmups with a keyboard and has tried both Cherry's and Topres.

nanu · « **Reply #14 on:** Sat, 31 July 2010, 20:02:46 »

I suck at the Touhou games compounded by the fact that I've only tried a gamepad. Seems that a majority plays via keyboard but a significant chunk doesn't: the best technical reason I've read being that focused shooting already exhausts 2 keys so I imagine it's a common problem that diagonal movements are inconsistent if the typical/cheap keyboard is 2 key rollover or 3KRO. The desktop PC has been dead, and it's unconvincing many notebook keyboards are NRKO.

Quote from: Udongein;208042

Hoping there's someone out there that plays shmups with a keyboard and has tried both Cherry's and Topres.

It's mostly that Topres let alone Cherry reds cost way too much to merely try out. So you might be the the first to fit this very obscure set of criteria!
Here's why no one's pushing you much in any direction:

keyboard scenes seem geographically isolated (the internet pipes to Asian hubs are typically horribly slow)
long-discontinued MX reds are rare even in Asia
but we don't have many of us geekhackers checking in from Asia (is it also due to thin net tubes?)
we have varied opinions on the best gaming test switch type, with MX blacks being an adequate default.
we are are likelier to try virtual reds by spring swapping MX blacks (both boards being cheaper than either a Realforce or a MX red board alone)

If you go Topre, it would fetch much of its value for resale if you want to chance that first.
The demand is probably less for a red Cherry board, so I'd be uncertain about going that way.
That's mostly due to #5, which is the direction I'd personally push people.

spolia optima · « **Reply #15 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 13:36:39 »

I can stay alive for about 5 minutes on that game.
I swear how can anyone play touhou without smoking a bag of crack first? It's insanely hard

HaaTa · « **Reply #16 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 15:04:48 »

ripster you probably passed a poster for it or a hundred while you were in Akihabara. Not that you would remember.

nanu · « **Reply #17 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 15:17:05 »

Quote

Toe-Ho

Ayep. tauxheau. toohoo => tōhō. NOT 2who.

The surrounding fandom/culture exponentially dwarfs in coverage the source material which is quite the multimedia experience, so it's rampantly accessible.

Oqsy · « **Reply #18 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 15:39:46 »

Combining the parts from a cherry black and a cherry brown gives you pretty close to cherry reds, if not identical. Use the black stems and the brown springs and you've got yourself a low force linear mechanical keyswitch

spolia optima · « **Reply #19 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 16:05:54 »

There's source material? I figured it was one of those "in japan everything is a cartoon, a robot, or a cartoon robot" things.

spolia optima · « **Reply #20 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 16:06:55 »

Has anyone tried genuine reds and homebrew reds side-by-side?

spolia optima · « **Reply #21 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 16:27:43 »

on second thought...

Lenny_Nero · « **Reply #22 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 16:55:02 »

Quote from: Udongein;207890

[...] it was just yesterday that a friend (who is an engineering student) pointed out to me why I was having such a hard time playing video games with my Cherry Blue Das Keyboard. I play a lot of shmups (Touhou) and other fast-paced action games, and when I play, the delay in each keystroke means I can't react as fast as I can... and need to...

Any chance of a cite or some 'real' proof of this ?

Its just that most of what I have read says there is nothing that can be perceived by the brain/body unless you are using an overloaded USB port that is doing many other things, and then that would not be down to the key switch, and using PS/2 uses an interrupt so there is no delay.

By the sound of it they teach another type of engineering now-a-days, and as I understand it all cherry switches have the same contact timing and having a tactile click/bump tells you when the switch point is reached so you can make it, move back, feel the difference and make it again something that cant be done with a linear switch because you cant 'feel' the point.

I would have thought that nKRO is the more important factor, do you have an nKRO Filco ?

ch_123 · « **Reply #23 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 16:56:37 »

This is what happens when you listen to engineering students...

Udongein · « **Reply #24 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 17:09:42 »

It looks like there's only one solution, then.

I'm going to buy both keyboards and compare them. I'll post the reviews here shortly after I get the keyboards and try them out.

A few things first though.

I've thought about it some more, and although I don't doubt that the Cherry Red for sale on eBay is high quality, I have a hard time believing it's the real thing, especially (as nanu said) if Reds are getting rare. I've imported a few Touhou figures from Asia and I know people who literally have whole roomfuls of them, and I've seen how convincing some Chinese knockoffs of Japanese products can be. If I can't find any other places to buy the Cherry Red, then I will probably buy it off that eBay auction. So here's a question for you, Geekhack. Are there any other places I can buy a Cherry Red where I won't get clipped with shipping over $100?

I'm not a technical user, and I don't have the know-how to rig up a ghetto Red.

As for the Topre, I'm going to buy it at elitekeyboards, unless someone can recommend somewhere better. I reckon I'll go for the 103UB.

Oh, and...

Quote from: spolia optima;208203

I can stay alive for about 5 minutes on that game.
I swear how can anyone play touhou without smoking a bag of crack first? It's insanely hard

I didn't last more than 5 minutes when I started either. But a few months of practice later, and I can beat two of them without using continues, and soon I'll be able to beat two more. The secret is that it's not as hard as it looks... it defeats most people before they even really get started.

ch_123 · « **Reply #25 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 17:46:37 »

Agreed.

I'd just get the Topre. I use one for gaming all the time...

Oqsy · « **Reply #26 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 17:55:33 »

I do all my gaming using an abacus, a sextant, and a musket.

ch_123 · « **Reply #27 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 17:58:28 »

Spoken like a true man...

Oqsy · « **Reply #28 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 18:59:18 »

thanks ch, remind me to take you fishing

Infinite north · « **Reply #29 on:** Sun, 01 August 2010, 19:30:08 »

Quote from: Lenny_Nero;208264

Any chance of a cite or some 'real' proof of this ?

Blue cherry switches reset farther away from the actuation point than any other cherry switch. it is because the two piece stems movement.

graphs are in this link.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards

Lenny_Nero · « **Reply #30 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 02:36:12 »

Quote from: Infinite north;208311

Blue cherry switches reset farther away from the actuation point than any other cherry switch. it is because the two piece stems movement.

graphs are in this link.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards

Ok, so there is up to 1 mm of play between feeling the switch and being able to come back and reset it to have another go with blues and from the graphs shown your right blues are then longest, browns/clears look to be the shortest ...apart from blacks that dont have a tactile point so you cant 'feel' you have 'made' the connection so really have to go the full length to be sure and that is over twice what a blue is.

...and from the looks of the graphs reds are blacks with a lower force, so as has been said swapping the springs would make the change, and the switches would be the same.

You can say that you heard that from an engineering graduate :tongue1:

Infinite north · « **Reply #31 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 04:04:13 »

It's a good thing they taught you to read a graph in engineering school.

Lenny_Nero · « **Reply #32 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 05:33:52 »

Quote from: Infinite north;208354

It's a good thing they taught you to read a graph in engineering school.

Only day I went.

Udongein · « **Reply #33 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 11:48:40 »

Quote from: Lenny_Nero;208347

Ok, so there is up to 1 mm of play between feeling the switch and being able to come back and reset it to have another go with blues and from the graphs shown your right blues are then longest, browns/clears look to be the shortest ...apart from blacks that dont have a tactile point so you cant 'feel' you have 'made' the connection so really have to go the full length to be sure and that is over twice what a blue is.

!

This suggests to me that perhaps I wouldn't want a Cherry Red after all...

What I'm after is being able to hit keys repeatedly with as short a time in between as possible. I could be making hundreds of arrow key movements per minute (example:

), so rapid response is my biggest concern.

Does that mean Topre is my best bet, and I shouldn't bother with CR?

HaaTa · « **Reply #34 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 12:07:28 »

Not necessarily, eventually you'll learn where the activation point is on the for linear switches. Then the tactile point becomes more of a hindrance really.

spolia optima · « **Reply #35 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 13:32:47 »

Quote from: HaaTa;208392

... the tactile point becomes more of a hindrance really.

This is starting to become my position on the matter.
I think linear switches should make a comeback. retro is cool now right?

washuai · « **Reply #36 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 14:27:29 »

If you got the money, go ahead and get the ebay reds - honestly, I'm not aware of cheaper reds and you have the review of those who have already done so, to feel more confident about it.

If money isn't an issue, and you want the quiet, build quality and greater spill resistence - get the Topre. I'm gonna recommend a consistently weighted board, over variable for gaming, though, which creates some additional cost, obtainment issues.

Here's an important question: Do you need/want a low force key?

If the answer to the above question is YES, then ok, you should get reds, topre or homebrew reds.

If the answer to the above question is I don't know or no, then I recommend you do the following:

Buy a keyboard with cherry blacks - PCB mounted, so it will be easier to swap springs if you don't like them. There are more price options and keyboard feature options going this route. If you like the blacks, then you're done, problem solved. If the blacks turn out to be too fatiguing, then you're halfway to home made reds. All you have left to do is get the cheapest source of cherry browns and swap the springs.

Tenkeyless reds or blackstem + brown springs, would be my gaming board of choice. Someday I'll probably homebrew the hard\expensive way (Deck 82 and much, solder).

Infinite north · « **Reply #37 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 14:57:33 »

In my mind a topre board is like a rolls royce, expensive and luxurious. when what you really want is a ferrari. you are getting too caught up in the cost not function.

Udongein · « **Reply #38 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 18:13:19 »

I'm pretty sure low force is what I need. Given how much I'll need to press the keys, my guess is that I need something as light as possible. I could see using a heavier 55g Topre or Cherry Black in a FPS like Counter-Strike, but I don't think it would work for Touhou. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if maybe the 45g variable Topre's arrow keys will be too heavy.

I'm wondering, then, if Topre might not be a good choice, unless there's somewhere I can get an All 30g model...

Thran · « **Reply #39 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 19:14:40 »

Lurker here but I currently use a Das S and you do not need anything lighter than cherry mx blues for touhou I can easily clear all Lunatic and Extra difficulties with this keyboard anything lighter than blue would most likely have me mess up. My scores did not change even if I was playing on my model M or Das so I really don't think you need to worry so much about the keyboard.

Thran · « **Reply #40 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 19:29:21 »

I play CS 1.6, SM, touhou and TF2 on my cherry blue and love it I honestly think people just need to find a keyboard they like the feel and sound of and just stick with it.

SM I can easily find the actuation point on the key and hit it multiple times without hearing the click I guess that could be annoying but touhou would not need to have the key hit that fast.

I agree completely ripster.

gr1m · « **Reply #41 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 19:36:56 »

Quote from: ripster;208505

Like I've said earlier I think Geekhackers tend to get a little too hysterical about hysteresis. Cherry Blues work for most games fine. TOO light a keyboard can cause accidental keypresses which is death in some games.

Actually, that's a problem with Cherry Blacks too. I mean, they're tough to depress, but they're so smooth that you can't feel you're pressing a key and with stronger fingers you might inadvertently find yourself hitting keys.

Thran · « **Reply #42 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 19:39:16 »

Its personal preference I tried out Cherry blacks first because everyone said they were the best to game on and I HATED the feel of them. Went to blues and fell in love.

Udongein · « **Reply #43 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 19:53:01 »

Your preference might be Cherry Blue. That clearly isn't mine though, hence the need to find another type of keyboard.

Thran · « **Reply #44 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 20:20:54 »

Well I say go for the topre if it bothers you that much just because I've used one on touhou and never had a problem.

stickemup · « **Reply #45 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 21:33:22 »

Quote from: Udongein;208515

Your preference might be Cherry Blue. That clearly isn't mine though, hence the need to find another type of keyboard.

Been there, and have done that.

If you're going to game, get a real gaming board. The cherry blacks really spring your hands up, and they feel like they are meant to be spammed. I think I've read that cherry actually puts the blacks in their premium office keyboards, fwiw. After reading this whole thing, I think you need to just get a deck legend. These are the linear blacks:

Eat a bunch of protein and B12 before you game on it, and you'll have beefcake fingers in a week!

Thran · « **Reply #46 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 21:41:58 »

If the layout doesn't kill him it would be a viable option.

Udongein · « **Reply #47 on:** Mon, 02 August 2010, 21:56:24 »

Quote from: stickemup;208539

Been there, and have done that.

If you're going to game, get a real gaming board. The cherry blacks really spring your hands up, and they feel like they are meant to be spammed. I think I've read that cherry actually puts the blacks in their premium office keyboards, fwiw. After reading this whole thing, I think you need to just get a deck legend. These are the linear blacks:

I looked at the Decks. Not really down with the backlit keys... been considering the Majestouch Cherry Black though.

The only thing worse than too few options is too many, I guess.

Duscha · « **Reply #48 on:** Sun, 22 August 2010, 20:39:18 »

Heh guys,

I'm curious if somebody actually got one of these?

I'm very into the idea of getting a Cherry MX Red. While browsing these forums it occurs that there are several Cherry MX Red out there. Specifically G80-3600LYC, G80-3494 and G80-3000 got mentioned as Red ones.

Are there maybe even more more specific manufacture serials I'm missing out to lurk for? By any chance does somebody know how are they different compared to each other and if for which would you root for?

I know it's almost impossible to buy one of these except some expensive ones on ebay.

Thank you very much!

highspeed · « **Reply #49 on:** Mon, 23 August 2010, 06:16:18 »

Quote from: Duscha;215803

Heh guys,

I'm curious if somebody actually got one of these?

I'm very into the idea of getting a Cherry MX Red. While browsing these forums it occurs that there are several Cherry MX Red out there. Specifically G80-3600LYC, G80-3494 and G80-3000 got mentioned as Red ones.

Are there maybe even more more specific manufacture serials I'm missing out to lurk for? By any chance does somebody know how are they different compared to each other and if for which would you root for?

I know it's almost impossible to buy one of these except some expensive ones on ebay.

Thank you very much!

g80-3000 is not red ones. Afaik g80-3600 and g80-3494 is the only ones with red.

I bought the g80-3494 from this guy: http://99hk.biz/.

No idea if its get cheaper from ebay or not.

News:

Author Topic: Seeking Cherry Red (Read 13087 times)