Defending brown switches. short msg

[Error213]

Imo browns aren’t tactile, there not linear, they are not clicky. They deserve their own category. It just feels different and when lubed it’s not bad, comment your opinions. I can feel the tactile fanboys crying over there keyboards while typing at 140 wpm

[Arch4Life]

well, brown is flawed linear, change my mind

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Error213]

well, brown is flawed linear, change my mind

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

it’s not a linear or a tactile it’s a mix of both

[Sup]

I had some MX browns and damn they where super linear expect that the sound was different more like tactile. I didn't mind though since i like linears.

[Leopard223]

People obsess too much over Cherry Browns

[yui]

People obsess too much over Cherry Browns

peoples obsess too much about everything, other than the well being of others around them.
ffs why do we need a post like that, if you like brown good for you no need to justify yourself, do not let a few elitists get to your head.
Browns are so light that they can't have heavy tactility, they are light tactile, the clue is in the name, light, the hate stemmed from their lightness and that cherry had molds so worn that the light tactile even was downed out by the mold defects, they now fixed it and it never applied to any other brands.
(and i say that while i do not like typing on brown, i like heavy clickies (greens minimum, M or heavier is better) of light linears (reds))

[DALExSNAIL]

Imo browns aren’t tactile, there not linear, they are not clicky. They deserve their own category. It just feels different and when lubed it’s not bad, comment your opinions. I can feel the tactile fanboys crying over there keyboards while typing at 140 wpm

They were originaly created with the intention of being a quiet and light Mx Blue almost. Light on tactility and weight. They were originally in an ergonomic board as well, from kinesis who requested them as a new switch, before being incorporated in the cherry 5k. Imo their category is ergonomic.

[yqqdrasil]

I've used browns for years. I prefer linears but have no hate for browns - except the colour.

There is no way I'd put in the time and effort to desolder/lube/film/reassemble for a pre-built board I bought to beat up, eat on top of, and never clean, but If I did I'm sure it would offer a much nicer typing experience.

[Error213]

Imo browns aren’t tactile, there not linear, they are not clicky. They deserve their own category. It just feels different and when lubed it’s not bad, comment your opinions. I can feel the tactile fanboys crying over there keyboards while typing at 140 wpm

They were originaly created with the intention of being a quiet and light Mx Blue almost. Light on tactility and weight. They were originally in an ergonomic board as well, from kinesis who requested them as a new switch, before being incorporated in the cherry 5k. Imo their category is ergonomic.

holy crap dalesnail, the first thing is I really liked you keycap set, second of all I think your right, and it does what it wants to be. It has a very light tactile feeling

[Maledicted]

Imo browns aren’t tactile, there not linear, they are not clicky. They deserve their own category. It just feels different and when lubed it’s not bad, comment your opinions. I can feel the tactile fanboys crying over there keyboards while typing at 140 wpm

They're linear switches with sandpaper applied.

People obsess too much over Cherry Browns

... the hate stemmed from their lightness and that cherry had molds so worn that the light tactile even was downed out by the mold defects, they now fixed it and it never applied to any other brands.

By fixed it do you mean to say that they don't feel like scratchy reds anymore? When was this? My 1-year-old tester still has MX sand on it. I would be up for giving them a fair shake if that were rectified, if only to change my opinion of them since I don't particularly like tactiles anyway.

I'll never understand that ergonomic angle. Ergonomic can mean anything to anyone unless a switch were somehow objectively painful to type with.

[yui]

By fixed it do you mean to say that they don't feel like scratchy reds anymore? When was this? My 1-year-old tester still has MX sand on it. I would be up for giving them a fair shake if that were rectified, if only to change my opinion of them since I don't particularly like tactiles anyway.

I'll never understand that ergonomic angle. Ergonomic can mean anything to anyone unless a switch were somehow objectively painful to type with.

i mean that cherry made new molds early 2020 from my understanding, to be honest i have not tried them, as i bought gat browns mid 2019 and did not like how light they were, so never bought cherrys. as i said i am not a fan of brown so i have not tried them all.

[bkrownd]

  They work for me.   

[typo]

To add to the confusion. the "Brown" that I like are of the optical variety. It could be said that it is a different switch entirely. I understand that the discussion was about genuine Cherry brand switches. I am just mentioning this not because it is a clone. Rather because it is called Brown but an entirely different technology. I do not expect this to have any bearing on this discussion. The point is a lot of people do not even know the difference. Between a lot of different things called the same thing.

[HungerMechanic]

Imo browns aren’t tactile, there not linear, they are not clicky. They deserve their own category. It just feels different and when lubed it’s not bad, comment your opinions. I can feel the tactile fanboys crying over there keyboards while typing at 140 wpm

Yes, they really are their own category. You could use various names for it, such as:

-interrupted linear

-light tactile

-Ergo Soft [I believe Cherry internally used this nomenclature]


I wrote about this topic a year ago:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=qo7cv5vvodr3c1mconh3kdkgio72lceh&topic=65341.msg2851055#msg2851055

I was going to write a big post about this when I was typing on an MX Brown keyboard for months, but I'll give you an abbreviated version:

MX Browns are a 'chill' switch. They are meant to be linears with a barely-noticeable bump.

They are a 'subconscious' switch. For touch typists, they give just enough subconscious feedback to indicate that a key has been pressed. That way, the typist can continue on an ergonomic low-tactility, low-weight switch without thinking about the switch at all.

They are meant to get out of your way. To be invisible. You don't type on MX Browns one character at-a-time. You type one-word-at-a time, one sentence at-a-time. You just imagine the word, and it appears on your screen. You don't think about typing.

It was clearly meant to be a business-like switch that isn't part of your conscious typing experience. The individual switch-feel is terrible, especially on new Browns. But you don't even feel this complete process if you type a full sentence. If you're a touch-typist and a light-typist, you don't even bottom-out on Browns, so it's just subconscious-activation directly to the next letter, with hardly any feel in-between.

Now, there are a lot of switch 'enthusiasts' here, and on Reddit. We want the best switch 'feel.' For some people, the typing is an end-in-itself. This is not who MX Brown is designed for. It's designed for average Joes and Janes who are entering spreadsheet data, typing Microsoft Office reports, gaming, and transcribing. They aren't looking for the optimum or 'premium' switch-feel, just something that works.

This is why MX Browns are unpopular in enthusiast communities, but are popular in the larger typing world. The end users are looking for different things.

Basically, MX Browns offer a soft, relaxed typing experience that relies on 'subconscious' actuation of the switch. It's so that you barely notice you actuated it. You can type indefinitely, and establish a rhythm since the switch is relatively light and low-tactility.

It's a different level of force and sustained tempo than with a heavier tactile like Clears, or heavier Clicky switches.

Cherry's original 'Ergo' tactile was the MX Clear, but they found it was too heavy for some people, so they had to make a lighter one, an 'Ergo Soft.'

Could it be executed better? Maybe. A small number of the custom switches from Chinese manufacturers attempt to be a smoother, more tactile Brown. In generally, they end up requiring lube, for sound purposes at minimum.

[funkmon]

Yes, over the past few months, I've grown to like the browns for what they are, that is, light rattley switches for almost subconscious typing feel and satisfaction. I'm looking to be going on a bit of a long trip soon and I'll need a numpad because I'm not a heathen, and I've taken to using a small MX Brown numpad with my tiny laptop keyboard. Very nice.

[HungerMechanic]

Yeah, I wish they wouldn't rattle. The new Hyperglide Browns are smooth, but still don't have the best sound. It's kind of a hollow chittering.

I wish Cherry keyboards in general weren't relentless rattle and noise. It's amazing they became so popular, and synonymous with a 'premium' typing experience. There's ping, reverb, echo, rattle, and scratch in factory boards.

Cherry stabilizers haven't changed much since the 1980s, and MX Browns haven't changed all that much since the 1990s. It's a good concept, maybe someone could come up with a better execution. It would be nice to see manufacturers try to solve fundamental issues affecting the keyboards and switches, instead of just endless recolours.

[Maledicted]

Yeah, I wish they wouldn't rattle. The new Hyperglide Browns are smooth, but still don't have the best sound. It's kind of a hollow chittering.

I wish Cherry keyboards in general weren't relentless rattle and noise. It's amazing they became so popular, and synonymous with a 'premium' typing experience. There's ping, reverb, echo, rattle, and scratch in factory boards.

Cherry stabilizers haven't changed much since the 1980s, and MX Browns haven't changed all that much since the 1990s. It's a good concept, maybe someone could come up with a better execution. It would be nice to see manufacturers try to solve fundamental issues affecting the keyboards and switches, instead of just endless recolours.

I say abandon MX and start over, like box, silo, etc. Cherry does what it does well enough, making the Honda Civics of mechanical switches. I guess that even carries over well to the clones being just like those people that waste time trying to soup up Civics. Why bother?

[HungerMechanic]

I agree - I enjoyed what Kailh eventually did with BOX [after they fixed the stems]. Was able to produce superior clickies, and their linears aren't bad.

Just making something good and new, but MX compatible, like Kailh basically did with BOX, is nice.

ZealPC has allegedly been working on a similar concept, replicating ALPS-style tactility/clickies, but in something that could be installed in an MX PCB.

[Riverman]

I put a set of Kailh silent box brown switches in a Das Keyboard 4 last year.  I really liked those switches.  They were slightly more tactile than MX browns, and obviously quite a bit quieter.  Whether it was some minor incompatibility with the board's plate cutouts, manufacturing issues with the switches, or something else, quite a few of the switches were slightly rotated, and I couldn't fix it, despite multiple attempts at desoldering them, plus I had heard enough stories of those switches getting clicky after the factory-applied lube wore out that I sold the keyboard.  Cherry's done such a nice job themselves of silencing red and black switches, I wonder why they haven't done the same for browns.  I'm sure they'd be ridiculously popular.

[HungerMechanic]

It is strange, and I've been experimenting with it.

Silent Browns are entirely possible: witness Gateron Silent Browns and Aliaz.

I've been trying to make a decent silent light tactile, and the Silent Sky stems come closest. They're about as tactile as a Clear, and you can run them at low weights.

So I'm looking into 60 G Silent Sky stems in MX Clear housings, lubed with 3204. This ends up being a little heavier and more tactile than MX Brown. But if lubed correctly, they are smooth enough and return well on the upstroke at 60 G.

They are mushy in the bottom-out and are not as crisp as a non-silent tactile, but they are light and they are quieter.

I wonder what challenges Cherry would face in creating Silent Browns. The rubber bumpers would cause some mushiness and shuffling, but that didn't stop them with their silent linears. I think it's because a Silent Brown might require a little more power to operate properly, given the dampening materials, and they want to keep using the same stem and spring.


Kailh BOX Silent Brown is a decent concept, although they had some manufacturing issues. Spontaneous disassembly in the early batches, and BOX switches have always had trouble with some of the stems being rotated. I found that the BOX Silent Browns almost felt like Zilent V2. They're a more tactile adaptation of the BOX Brown. But the travel is limited: BOX Browns have 3.6mm, and I suspect that the silent variant is less than that. 3.6 mm is good, but I don't like less than that in MX switches.

If you liked the BOX Silent Browns but they weren't up to snuff, you might try Zilent V2. They tend to be built better, but they will be more tactile. The only thing Zilents really need are lubing of the springs, or better-yet replacing the springs with something good. Some people lube the switches themselves. They are most compatible with Cherry-profile and KAT. [Works well with OEM for me.]

[Leopard223]

It is strange, and I've been experimenting with it.

Silent Browns are entirely possible: witness Gateron Silent Browns and Aliaz.

I've been trying to make a decent silent light tactile, and the Silent Sky stems come closest. They're about as tactile as a Clear, and you can run them at low weights.

So I'm looking into 60 G Silent Sky stems in MX Clear housings, lubed with 3204. This ends up being a little heavier and more tactile than MX Brown. But if lubed correctly, they are smooth enough and return well on the upstroke at 60 G.

They are mushy in the bottom-out and are not as crisp as a non-silent tactile, but they are light and they are quieter.

I wonder what challenges Cherry would face in creating Silent Browns. The rubber bumpers would cause some mushiness and shuffling, but that didn't stop them with their silent linears. I think it's because a Silent Brown might require a little more power to operate properly, given the dampening materials, and they want to keep using the same stem and spring.


Kailh BOX Silent Brown is a decent concept, although they had some manufacturing issues. Spontaneous disassembly in the early batches, and BOX switches have always had trouble with some of the stems being rotated. I found that the BOX Silent Browns almost felt like Zilent V2. They're a more tactile adaptation of the BOX Brown. But the travel is limited: BOX Browns have 3.6mm, and I suspect that the silent variant is less than that. 3.6 mm is good, but I don't like less than that in MX switches.

If you liked the BOX Silent Browns but they weren't up to snuff, you might try Zilent V2. They tend to be built better, but they will be more tactile. The only thing Zilents really need are lubing of the springs, or better-yet replacing the springs with something good. Some people lube the switches themselves. They are most compatible with Cherry-profile and KAT. [Works well with OEM for me.]

Does the Kailh BOX silent brown get clicky over time like the rest of their tactiles?

[HungerMechanic]

I haven't heard from anyone who has used one long enough to tell me.

The previous-generation BOX tactiles went clicky because the lube leaked out through a hole. I don't know if that's the case with the new designs, which have both a resdesigned housing and stem.

There are other reasons to avoid BOX Silent Brown, namely the QC defects in at least the early batches.

[Polymer]

Yes, over the past few months, I've grown to like the browns for what they are, that is, light rattley switches for almost subconscious typing feel and satisfaction. I'm looking to be going on a bit of a long trip soon and I'll need a numpad because I'm not a heathen, and I've taken to using a small MX Brown numpad with my tiny laptop keyboard. Very nice.

This...If you're expecting heavy tactility, you're not going to get it.  If you actually just type on Browns, they feel fine.  Slight bit of tactility that offers just enough resistance so you know it was there.  They're a lot less scratchy when they're broke in as well.

Years ago we had a number of people on here that disliked browns but admitted they actually typed faster on them....

[Riverman]

I'm in that category.  I still prefer the feel of Topre switches, but I type faster on browns.  They're just a nice, light switch, and the tactility keeps them from feeling mushy like reds.  My only real issue with them is that they're loud in an office.

[Jinho]

browns are good

[bkrownd]

I like the subtle feedback.  I don't understand what the fuss is.  I wish there was also a subtle clicky. 

[micmil]

"The Honda Civic of switches." That's a pretty good descriptor. Nothing amazing about them, but also absolutely nothing wrong except the fact that they do everything well enough for everyone but nothing interesting enough to get your attention. You don't really love them but you can't be bothered to get a replacement because nothing else in the same price range is vastly better and the more interesting stuff is way more expensive.

I ran blues forever but recently had to switch to something quieter for work purposes and the browns are doing just fine by me.

[vnflynn]

"The Honda Civic of switches." That's a pretty good descriptor. Nothing amazing about them, but also absolutely nothing wrong except the fact that they do everything well enough for everyone but nothing interesting enough to get your attention. You don't really love them but you can't be bothered to get a replacement because nothing else in the same price range is vastly better and the more interesting stuff is way more expensive.

I ran blues forever but recently had to switch to something quieter for work purposes and the browns are doing just fine by me.

Now I wondering about which one is the Maserati of switches

[micmil]

"The Honda Civic of switches." That's a pretty good descriptor. Nothing amazing about them, but also absolutely nothing wrong except the fact that they do everything well enough for everyone but nothing interesting enough to get your attention. You don't really love them but you can't be bothered to get a replacement because nothing else in the same price range is vastly better and the more interesting stuff is way more expensive.

I ran blues forever but recently had to switch to something quieter for work purposes and the browns are doing just fine by me.

Now I wondering about which one is the Maserati of switches

Which era of Maserati? The original 70's supercars that were odd even among supercars in the 70's? Probably something like a Honeywell Hall effect. Weird. Rare. Cool.
80's Maserati, where they decided to be the main supercar in the midsize sedan market? Foldable keyboard membrane. Ugly. Doesn't work. Nobody likes them.
Current? Let's see... mostly reliable, nothing terribly crazy, comfortable, but still sporty enough to put a smile on your face. Gateron Clear. Nothing massively out of the ordinary, but faster than you'd think given the outside appearance.