Author Topic: Modified Happy Hacker Layout  (Read 11134 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1131
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:04:46 »




Would this be tolerable, and would you prefer it over the standard HH layout?
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:11:44 »
No and no.  It's perfect the way it is.


Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:15:23 »
The only thing that would make a HHKB better is a Realforce-style mounting plate for the switches so they feel the same.


Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:27:19 »
yes and yes. The HHKB layout sucks. I am a linux/vi/vim user and spend 90% of my computing time in a console and prefer the standard layout any day.
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1131
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:30:10 »
The idea is to make an ultra compact layout that will be familiar and usable to non-Linux-programmer people.
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:35:53 »
well im sorry, but I work with a plethora of linux users AND programmers (what is a linux programmer anyway? I for one program in LANGUAGES, none of which are OS specific.).

Most of us use vi/vim, some are emac people and some use higher level IDEs. I don't know of anyone using anything outside the standard layout, aside from a kinesis advantage user or two. I would never buy a HHKB in it's current layout.
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1131
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:37:20 »
A Linux programmer would probably mainly use C++ and use Linux shortcuts, which is what the HHKB is optimized for, from what I understand.
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:37:50 »
So, you want to go from this (right arrow) -



To this -





Has anyone else noticed that 95% of all the criticism of the HHKB on this site come from people who have either never used them, or never used them long enough to form a meaningful opinion about them?
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:51:03 by ch_123 »

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1131
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:44:20 »
True, didn't consider Fn key location that well.

But the one big deal breaker for the HHKB is the lack of a backspace key, only delete, plus the very prominent location of Control which isn't as hugely important in non-Linux OSs, and which could cause confusion for people not used to the layout. I do prefer Control over Caps Lock for that position, but I've been using that key as Delete, which works amazingly for me and my parents (many programs require use of the delete key for certain tasks, and it's easier to have it there than way over on the other side. Plus, text editing).

The Fn key location maybe needs to be reconsidered, but I stand by adding a backspace key and moving Control.
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:47:20 »
Quote from: ch_123;210905
So, you want to go from this -



To this -



Show Image



I guess so, I don't see what it is you are pointing out.

Quote from: ch_123;210905

Has anyone else noticed that 95% of all the criticism of the HHKB on this site come from people who have either never used them, or never used them long enough to form a meaningful opinion about them?


No, but I have seem some serious pretension among the HHKB users, even the name is sort of "holier than thou". If you are happy with the layout and form factor, that is fine. Just realise that a lot of "happy hackers" are doing just fine with their standard layouts.
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:49:20 »
That guy is running Windows XP...

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:50:37 »
Quote from: instantkamera;210910
I guess so, I don't see what it is you are pointing out.


The keys I'm pressing - combinations for right arrow.

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:51:44 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;210908
True, didn't consider Fn key location that well.

But the one big deal breaker for the HHKB is the lack of a backspace key, only delete, plus the very prominent location of Control which isn't as hugely important in non-Linux OSs, and which could cause confusion for people not used to the layout. I do prefer Control over Caps Lock for that position, but I've been using that key as Delete, which works amazingly for me and my parents (many programs require use of the delete key for certain tasks, and it's easier to have it there than way over on the other side. Plus, text editing).

The Fn key location maybe needs to be reconsidered, but I stand by adding a backspace key and moving Control.


Flip a dipswitch and Delete becomes Backspace. Delete then becomes Fn + `~

Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:55:22 »
Quote from: ch_123;210915
The keys I'm pressing - combinations for right arrow.


yeah, I think I prefer an actual arrow cluster, again, another reason I won't use HHKB.

I already have a ton of key bindings, I don't need a function key to do all the things that should be on a "normal" board. Tenkeyless I can use, but I need the arrows and ins/del cluster too.
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1131
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:56:55 »
How about now?

Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 10:58:20 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;210921
How about now?

Show Image


Where did right Alt go? Y'know, the one that becomes Alt Gr under various layouts...

Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:03:02 »
Funny, where is the \| key normally on the HHKB? I live and die by bash one liners and I think I would be very PEEVED at the displacement of that key.
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1131
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:03:21 »
Well, you flip a dip switch and it turns into an Apple Aluminum keyboard. ;)

Oversight on my part, I was thinking I was missing a key but wasn't sure what. The right control should be right alt.
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:05:35 »
Quote from: instantkamera;210927
Funny, where is the \| key normally on the HHKB? I live and die by bash one liners and I think I would be very PEEVED at the displacement of that key.


To the right of += on the top row. AT layout style...

And Phaedrus, in case you didn't see my post above, you can set the HHKB so that the Delete key becomes backspace, and delete is Fn+`~ (You can see "Del" on the front face of said key)

The only thing I would like to see done changed with the HHKB layout is having an additional Fn on the left corner.

Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:10:12 »
Quote from: ripster;210903
Oh.  THAT's easy.
Show Image


It's only the Linux guys that like to do everything from scratch.


Tried it. Still miss the home key cluster.
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:12:54 »
Quick access to the editing cluster is something I do miss when on the HHKB, I will give you that much

Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:15:37 »
Quote from: ch_123;210937
Quick access to the editing cluster is something I do miss when on the HHKB, I will give you that much


which just becomes too much for me, combined with all the other layout idiosyncrasies and excess fn+key bindings. It looks ****ing slick though, especially with the stealth keycaps.
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:20:39 »
I would echo Ch_123's sentiment on not knocking it before you try it.  I thought it was going to be quite awkward when I got it, but I was using it like a champ in about 15 minutes or so.  While it looks hard to use on the surface, it's pretty intuitive when you use if for awhile.  I won't say it's the Holy Grail of layouts (I still had to get an external numpad), but it's a lot nicer than you think, especially when you consider how little you move your hands.  Using the page nav cluster on my Realforce feels like I am reaching across my desk in comparison.


Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:22:42 »
Quote from: instantkamera;210940
excess fn+key bindings.


I thought the same thing, but with the Fn on your right pinky, it's really easy.  to each his own, though.


Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:34:02 »
There's too many shift bindings on modern keyboards. The main alpha block of a keyboard should consist of 128 keys - one for each ASCII character.
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:42:18 by ch_123 »

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:41:23 »
Quote from: ch_123;210949
There's two many shift bindings on modern keyboards. The main alpha block of a keyboard should consist of 128 keys - one for each ASCII character.


Nice.


Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:43:04 »
it's not so much the movement that bothers me, just that I have a terrible memory and already use alt/ctrl/shift/super key bindings for so many different things.

As an example, I use konsole/gnome-terminal when Im not just using xterm and have super(windows) key bindings(when Im not using a model M, then I have to switch to shift-ctrl bindings) for some of the main stuff I do with those guys. Plus I basically live inside screen (and sometimes screened screens as I work remote-remotely :P(which, in case I was not clear, means either using local binding that don't conflict with the remote default bindings, or just escaping everytime I need to control a remote screen (extra keypresses)), which I am using to connect to several servers, and using MANY keybindings with. On these I spend most of my day manipulating text in one way or another. A layout that strays too far from the standard path for me will end up driving me insane as I just don't have the time. HHKB may be better than the apple BT keyboard (which I struggled to use for a year) in some ways, but they are both missing stuff I can't live without.

Im sorry if I haven't provided a technically worthy enough excuse/explanation. Im sure, for some folks the HHKB is the ****. Im not trying to stop anyone from buying them, just stating a personal preference that DOES actually stem from technical reason/logic. I happen to think the HHKB sucks FOR me and Im not just trollin'.
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 August 2010, 11:59:08 by instantkamera »
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline Rajagra

  • Posts: 1930
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 12:54:22 »
Quote from: ch_123;210905
So, you want to go from this (right arrow) -

Show Image

That looks quite relaxed. Now show us how to do Shift-Control-Right Arrow to select a word one-handed. A trivial exercise on a standard keyboard in a typical Windows app.

You see this is where the HHKB falls down. Not when doing simple arrow presses. But when doing more complicated real-world combinations. The simple elegance of the HHKB suddenly becomes a challenging finger gymnastic exercise.

FWIW, I use the key on the left of space as my Fn-modifier, and it is very comfortable. (I normally use the other hand to press the modified key. But doing it one handed is no problem as I have everything mirrored on both sides.)

If you sit down and make a brutal decision on how to deal with the excessive modifier key problem, it's hard to avoid the logical conclusion that the four modifier keys (Ctrl, Alt, Shift, Fn) must be in a straight line to be operated with one hand while the other hand presses the modified keys. Which leads to something like this (you can't realistically tamper with the normal shift keys, so they have to be duplicated):

« Last Edit: Tue, 10 August 2010, 12:58:59 by Rajagra »

Offline hyperlinked

  • Posts: 924
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 13:07:48 »
Quote from: Rajagra;210998
You see this is where the HHKB falls down. Not when doing simple arrow presses. But when doing more complicated real-world combinations. The simple elegance of the HHKB suddenly becomes a challenging finger gymnastic exercise.

I never realized that you were supposed to use the right arrows with your right pinky on the Fn key. That does look pretty cool, but it does present another problem.

It's slightly awkward to use your pinky finger and press another key at the same time. This is because your pinky and whatever finger you're going to use to strike another key share some muscles in common so you can't completely isolate a pinky movement from your other fingers.

Try to do a "pinky curl" against resistance, but keep the rest of your fingers totally relaxed... nearly impossible. Try to do it, but keep your thumb relaxed. You can do it with a little practice.

Your thumb doesn't share any muscles with your pinky nor does it share any muscles with any of your four fingers so if you use it as the holder of the modifier key, you have greater range of movement and should also have lower muscle tension in your hand at the same time.

The only problem is that the only modifier key the thumb can hit comfortably is the Alt key or whatever key you have next to the spacebar and it you have to curl your thumb underneath a little to keep it held down.

Quote from: Rajagra;210998
Show Image
Having the Fn key there is actually a pretty good move for the arrow keys. Of course, it makes the middle part of the keyboard torture to reach and any benefits you get from splitting your modifier key holder from your fingers would be lost for any middle of the keyboard reaches.
« Last Edit: Tue, 10 August 2010, 13:10:40 by hyperlinked »
-

Topre: Realforce 103U Cherry: Filco Majestouch 104 (Brown), Ione Scorpius M10 (Blue)
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M1391401 ALPS: Apple Extended Keyboard II (Cream), ABS M1 (Fukka/Black), MicroConnectors Flavored USB (Black)
Domes: Matias Optimizer, Kensington ComfortType, Microsoft Internet Keyboard
Scissors: Apple Full Sized Aluminum
Pointy Stuff: Razer Imperator, Razer Copperhead, DT225 Trackball, Apple Magic Mouse, Logitech MX1000, Apple Mighty Mouse
Systems: MacPro, MacBook Pro, ASUS eeePC netbook, Dell D600 laptop, a small cluster of Linux Web servers
Displays: Apple Cinema Display 30", Apple Cinema Display 23"
Ergo Devices: Zody Chair, Nightingale CXO, Somaform, Theraball, 3M AKT180LE Keyboard Tray

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 14:27:53 »
Quote from: Rajagra;210998
That looks quite relaxed. Now show us how to do Shift-Control-Right Arrow to select a word one-handed. A trivial exercise on a standard keyboard in a typical Windows app.


Pressing such a combination with one hand on a regular layout keyboard is kinda awkward anyway, I'd rather do it with two hands.

This of course, is different to my arrow key demonstration, because you don't really want to do gymnastics to gain the functionality of a single button.

Offline quadibloc

  • Posts: 770
  • Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
  • Layout Fanatic
    • John Savard's Home Page
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 14:32:17 »
Quote from: ch_123;210949
There's too many shift bindings on modern keyboards. The main alpha block of a keyboard should consist of 128 keys - one for each ASCII character.
Huh? That would not be suitable for touch-typing.

I agree that the HHKB layout could be improved. I think it's a pity about the abandonment of the project for a programmable keyboard of one of our members, because I don't expect the HHKB layout to undergo such changes.

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 14:34:26 »
Quote from: quadibloc;211050
Huh? That would not be suitable for touch-typing.


I think you may have missed the intentional irony of that statement.

Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 14:35:45 »
Quote from: quadibloc;211050
Huh? That would not be suitable for touch-typing.


he was being facetious...
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline keyboardlover

  • Posts: 4022
  • Hey Paul Walker, Click It or Ticket!
    • http://www.keyboardlover.com
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 10 August 2010, 20:50:20 »
Quote from: instantkamera;210940
which just becomes too much for me, combined with all the other layout idiosyncrasies and excess fn+key bindings. It looks ****ing slick though, especially with the stealth keycaps.


That's pretty much how I feel...I like the looks but for me it wouldn't be worth it to take the time to get used to it + buy 2 (since a full-size at work would just feel weird once I was used to the HHKB layout). Looks-wise though, it's cool as hell.

Offline iMav

  • geekhack creator/founder
  • Location: Valley City, ND
  • "Τα εργαλεία σας είναι σημαντικά."
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 06:59:44 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;210887
Would this be tolerable, and would you prefer it over the standard HH layout?

I think I just threw up in my mouth a bit.  :)

IMHO, the current HHKB layout is perfect.

Offline RoboKrikit

  • Posts: 198
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 16:26:12 »
What in the world is going on? Why is the Delete key where the Control key is supposed to be?

Is this real life? :faint2:
Lovely day for a GUINNESS

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 16:28:02 »
Quote from: RoboKrikit;211571
What in the world is going on? Why is the Delete key where the Control key is supposed to be?

Is this real life? :faint2:


No, it's a mock-up.

Welcome to Geekhack! :)


Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 16:30:02 »
Quote from: hyperlinked;211005
I never realized that you were supposed to use the right arrows with your right pinky on the Fn key. That does look pretty cool, but it does present another problem.

It's slightly awkward to use your pinky finger and press another key at the same time. This is because your pinky and whatever finger you're going to use to strike another key share some muscles in common so you can't completely isolate a pinky movement from your other fingers.

Try to do a "pinky curl" against resistance, but keep the rest of your fingers totally relaxed... nearly impossible. Try to do it, but keep your thumb relaxed. You can do it with a little practice.

Your thumb doesn't share any muscles with your pinky nor does it share any muscles with any of your four fingers so if you use it as the holder of the modifier key, you have greater range of movement and should also have lower muscle tension in your hand at the same time.

The only problem is that the only modifier key the thumb can hit comfortably is the Alt key or whatever key you have next to the spacebar and it you have to curl your thumb underneath a little to keep it held down.


Having the Fn key there is actually a pretty good move for the arrow keys. Of course, it makes the middle part of the keyboard torture to reach and any benefits you get from splitting your modifier key holder from your fingers would be lost for any middle of the keyboard reaches.


You oughta put an Fn-Lock key somewhere in there, maybe in that blank spot under the right Windows key.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline itlnstln

  • Posts: 7048
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 16:36:11 »
Oooh, a Fn lock would be a good idea.


Offline aegrotatio

  • Posts: 334
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:20:15 »
I suffered through the golden decade of Sun Workstations and their idiotic keyboards and have to say that no ergonomic thought went into their design or layout whatsoever.  Both ANSI and ISO disagree with the HHKB's holdover Sun layout and kicked it to the curb.  I bought both layouts of HHKB thinking I could remap what I didn't like or get used to it.  After ten years I still regret buying these keyboards except that they are the "Lite" model bought on closeout so I didn't get too angry about wasting money on a keyboard whose layout makes me violently insane, but whose footprint is very nice.  Just another row on top so ESC and the tilde would be in the normal location is all I really ask because the world has moved away from this obsolete layout that nobody remembers.

The only reason this layout even exists today is that Sun kept it as the default keyboard for all its desktop workstations.  You actually had to specifically ask to change the keyboard to the ANSI or ISO layout "PC Style" keyboard and if you didn't you got this awful mess.  Naturally your puchasing agent for your school or lab didn't so you got forced to use it.

I program both in and with Emacs lisp but I still don't care about lisp keyboards and "L1-A" stop commands.  It's not 1989 anymore.
Daily Drivers: Ducky DK1087XM || DSI ASK-6600 || Rosewill RK-9000 BL, BR, BL, and RE || ABS M1 || Das Keyboard Silent || HHKB Lite and Lite 2 || DSI Big Font (kids love it)
Yearning for: Any ALPS keyboard || Any tenkeyless mechanical keyboard
Permanent collection: Poker Blue and Brown || Adesso MKB-125B || SIIG MiniTouch Geek Hack Space Saver || Chicony 5181 Monterey Blue || Chicony 5191 Clone Cherry Blues || Key Tronic 3600 || Unicomp Endurapro & SmarTrex || A crate of IBM Model M and Model M Space Saving boards || NeXTstation Slab || Amiga 3000 || BTC-5100C black and beige || SIIG MiniTouch Plus black and beige
Retired collection: SIIG MiniTouch Monterey Blue || Razer BlackWidow

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:37:16 »
You mean these things?
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline mike

  • Posts: 82
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:37:39 »
Quote from: aegrotatio;211595
The only reason this layout even exists today is that Sun kept it as the default keyboard for all its desktop workstations.  You actually had to specifically ask to change the keyboard to the ANSI or ISO layout "PC Style" keyboard and if you didn't you got this awful mess.  Naturally your puchasing agent for your school or lab didn't so you got forced to use it.


Er ... no. I'm not sure about the type-4 days, but from type-5 onwards, the layout you're talking about (Control where Caps usually is, Esc where ~ usually is, etc.) was a specialised "country kit" - specifically "US/UNIX". And it wasn't the default; you always had to specify it to get it. And yes, I was involved in buying Sun equipment.
Keyboards: Unicomp UB40T56 with JP3 removed, Unicomp UB4044A, Filco Tenkeyless Brown (with pink highlights), Access AKE1223231, IBM DisplayWriter, Das Keyboard III, and a few others.

Offline aegrotatio

  • Posts: 334
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:43:02 »
Yes I was talking Type-4, not Type-5.  I forget exactly but at Access Graphics it was Type-4c or something and was always pissing off customers being a little too different.  Depending on the distributor/reseller it was either extra cost or extra wait, and usually both.

Hmm that picture looks like ISO; I never sold anything for overseas.
« Last Edit: Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:15:24 by aegrotatio »
Daily Drivers: Ducky DK1087XM || DSI ASK-6600 || Rosewill RK-9000 BL, BR, BL, and RE || ABS M1 || Das Keyboard Silent || HHKB Lite and Lite 2 || DSI Big Font (kids love it)
Yearning for: Any ALPS keyboard || Any tenkeyless mechanical keyboard
Permanent collection: Poker Blue and Brown || Adesso MKB-125B || SIIG MiniTouch Geek Hack Space Saver || Chicony 5181 Monterey Blue || Chicony 5191 Clone Cherry Blues || Key Tronic 3600 || Unicomp Endurapro & SmarTrex || A crate of IBM Model M and Model M Space Saving boards || NeXTstation Slab || Amiga 3000 || BTC-5100C black and beige || SIIG MiniTouch Plus black and beige
Retired collection: SIIG MiniTouch Monterey Blue || Razer BlackWidow

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #43 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 17:44:42 »
I like the HHKB layout and don't see any need to change it. I use the Fn key on the left side and it works very well when using page up/down, end, home ....

I don't game on the computer, I don't write code either. And somehow, I find the HHKB layout to be the best layout going.

After using the HHKB at home and then using a regular keyboard at work I find having to reach over to use the arrow keys/page up/down to be real annoying.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1131
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #44 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:14:40 »
The stock HHKB layout kills it for gaming because of the location of Control. And the odd backspace location scares off many people.
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #45 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 18:16:35 »
I've gamed on it quite alright thank you very much.

Again, looking at pictures != experience.

Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #46 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:15:48 »
Quote from: instantkamera;210902
well im sorry, but I work with a plethora of linux users AND programmers (what is a linux programmer anyway? I for one program in LANGUAGES, none of which are OS specific.).

Most of us use vi/vim, some are emac people and some use higher level IDEs. I don't know of anyone using anything outside the standard layout, aside from a kinesis advantage user or two. I would never buy a HHKB in it's current layout.

I'm a Linux/Unix Emacs user and my HHKB is underway. I'll let you know :)

PS: It's quite possible that Emacs users are a bit more relaxed about using modifier keys :)

Also, to the OP: the CTRL key is already in the one true spot on the HHKB.
Current collection: HHKB Pro 2 black on black, HHKB Pro 2 white/grey blank, [strike]Dell AT101W[/strike] (sold to SirClickAlot), 1992 Model M, Key Tronic Ergoforce KT 2001, BTC 5100 C. Dead boards: MS Natural Elite, MS Natural 4000.

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #47 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 19:17:33 »
I like having the backspace right above the enter key, it makes more sense to me that way as does the location of Cntrl.  Having the escape key next to the 1 key is ideal for me too as I do use it a bit. Tilde/tick gets kicked to the upper right which is fine as I don't use it much anyways.
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII    

Offline instantkamera

  • Posts: 617
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #48 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:14:14 »
Quote from: bigpook;211647
I like having the backspace right above the enter key, it makes more sense to me that way as does the location of Cntrl.  Having the escape key next to the 1 key is ideal for me too as I do use it a bit. Tilde/tick gets kicked to the upper right which is fine as I don't use it much anyways.


Good point, another valid technical reason not to like the HHKB layout, which I'm sure will be ignored/dismissed. I'm a heavy ssh user and ~ is the default escape character. Muscle memory is a big factor in being swift and efficient at my job. Don't have time to re-learn/re-train/adjust to new ****.

Do I still have no idea until I spend the $300?
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline bigpook

  • Posts: 1723
Modified Happy Hacker Layout
« Reply #49 on: Wed, 11 August 2010, 20:33:56 »
Quote from: instantkamera;211684
Good point, another valid technical reason not to like the HHKB layout, which I'm sure will be ignored/dismissed. I'm a heavy ssh user and ~ is the default escape character. Muscle memory is a big factor in being swift and efficient at my job. Don't have time to re-learn/re-train/adjust to new ****.

Do I still have no idea until I spend the $300?


gee whiz. No one is forcing you to buy an HHKB. If the layout doesn't work for you than move on to something else.
If you are looking for something that is close to the feel of the topre switches than just get a filco tenkeyless with cherry browns.

Just curious. I use ssh but don't understand the use of tilde as an escape character. Can you explain?
HHKB Pro 2 : Unicomp Spacesaver : IBM Model M : DasIII