Author Topic: Hi from Switzerland  (Read 1586 times)

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Offline b0x1

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Hi from Switzerland
« on: Fri, 19 March 2021, 06:10:54 »
Hi there,

my name is Chris and I started with custom keyboards a little bit by accident. I was looking for a replacement Cherry switch for a Keybord I really liked for the past years - its called CODE-Keyboard. It uses Cherry MX Clear which I found on AliExpress, so far so good. I bought the Keys because I rly like the Bord and I am quite confident with the soldering Iron so I decided to replace the switch myself.
The whole operation was absolutely painless and the keybord was back on duty very soon.

After a few days I was so impressed by how well the whole project turned out that I thought: If you can change one switch that easily, you might change all of those as well? As I am very curious by nature and I had more time to spend than usual due to this COVID thing still going on, I decided to give it a try. I never was 100% happy with the MX clears, they are a little bit too stiff and to scratchy in my opinion so I asked this thing called Internet for help. I was just looking for the perfect tactile switch and realized that the answer to this question is much harder to find than I thought it would be. Frankenswitch? Lubed switches? Holy Pandas? WTF? I thought there are 2-4 manufacturer to pick from and suddenly I was confronted with the question which Lube should I use.
I realized very soon, that I dont need to resolder my Keyboard - I found many PCBs and Cases on AliExpress where I can build a Keybord to my liking without the risk of destroying my loved CODE-Keyboard.

Now after my third Keybord is built, the second Groupbuy is joined and sooo many switches are around me that I can finaly fill a pillow with them, I accepted that there is no escape. At this point the hobby has not only taken all my money, but my heart and soul as well and so I needed to take it to the next level and join the geekhack community...

This is why I am here - I hope it continues to be a great journey.

Best greetings to everyone out there
Chris

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Hi from Switzerland
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 19 March 2021, 11:11:28 »
Hi Chris. Welcome to Geekhack.

That CODE keyboard seems pretty nice. If I had to use an MX switch, clears would be one of the few that I wouldn't immediately be repulsed by, so I think you did a pretty good job for a first mechanical.

Keyboards make for some of the most enjoyable soldering I have done, it is really a great use for it.

What switches have you tried? Have you tried any decent linears or clickies? You may find you prefer a different type of switch entirely.

Offline b0x1

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Re: Hi from Switzerland
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 21 March 2021, 05:14:01 »
Hi Maledicted

Yes I tried many linears before in some Gamingkeybords - But mainly Cherry MXs. The last one I had was black so I went to the Cherry clears because I liked the harder spring in the blacks. I also tried Gateron red and bought a punch of Gateron clears by accident because I  thought they are similar to the Cherry clears  :( Also tinkered around with Flaretech opticals (red, black and blue) some time ago on an optical keyboard just because I liked the idea of optical switches. But they are rather bad in my opinion.
Clickys are no option for me because I really dont like the noise... sry

By the way I built a 60% bord with that Gateron clear only for gaming and this turned out really great. Although I like the linears for Gaming I dont like typing on them so I looked for tactile switches.
In my daily board I currently use lubed Holy Pandas with a 67g spring from durock. I like that combination a lot, they are very different to those Cherry MX clears but the same direction in some way - if you get what Im trying to say?
At the moment I am working on a KBD8x mkii in E-yellow with Zeal Zilent V2 - this should become as silent as possible for work, because I dont want to annoy all of my coworkers.

Do you have any switch recommendations that I should try? As I like soldering and tinkering around with stuff I am quite interested in any new stuff I can try.
« Last Edit: Sun, 21 March 2021, 05:16:07 by b0x1 »

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Hi from Switzerland
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 09:17:13 »
Yes I tried many linears before in some Gamingkeybords - But mainly Cherry MXs. The last one I had was black so I went to the Cherry clears because I liked the harder spring in the blacks. I also tried Gateron red and bought a punch of Gateron clears by accident because I  thought they are similar to the Cherry clears  :( Also tinkered around with Flaretech opticals (red, black and blue) some time ago on an optical keyboard just because I liked the idea of optical switches. But they are rather bad in my opinion.
Clickys are no option for me because I really dont like the noise... sry

Well, you could swap springs in the Gateron clears at least, if you wanted to make them heavier. What was wrong with the Flaretech opticals? I have never tried them. There are a few different manufacturers trying their hand at opticals now, hall effect too.

By the way I built a 60% bord with that Gateron clear only for gaming and this turned out really great. Although I like the linears for Gaming I dont like typing on them so I looked for tactile switches.
In my daily board I currently use lubed Holy Pandas with a 67g spring from durock. I like that combination a lot, they are very different to those Cherry MX clears but the same direction in some way - if you get what Im trying to say?
At the moment I am working on a KBD8x mkii in E-yellow with Zeal Zilent V2 - this should become as silent as possible for work, because I dont want to annoy all of my coworkers.

I could see Gateron clears being good for gaming. I have thought about box whites myself, since I prefer clickies. Something thunderous and/or highly tactile would distract me though. I'm still using MX reds in a Corsair K70 for gaming, because they're just good enough. Something a little heavier, or with a reasonable tactile event to prevent me from accidentally actuating them by resting my fingers on them would be nice though.

The closest thing to Holy Pandas I have tried is probably Halo Trues, because they came in my Drop ALT. I'm normally a clicky guy, and don't really like MX tactiles in general, but I'm open to trying more if the apocalypse ever ends and there happen to be more boutique/frankenswitch boards around at a meet or something. To me, MX tactiles (that I have tried) all feel just about the same other than how pronounced the tactile event is based on spring weighting and the stem used. In that way, it makes perfect sense to me that Holy Pandas and MX clears would seem similar to each other. I imagine lubrication made the biggest difference.

A lot of people love Zilent switches, so if you like MX tactiles I imagine you'll be happy with them. Especially so if you're prioritizing noise over feel. I have never tried them myself though.

I work in multiple schools, sometimes in the very middle of the library, and I use thunderous clicky keyboards almost exclusively. I have asked students and coworkers if they minded the switches I used multiple times. If they were relatively bassy, like SKCM blue Alps or box jades, nobody has ever minded them and many have liked hearing them. Some have disliked high-pitched clickies like MX blue or capacitive buckling spring, but I don't hear that often. If anybody ever reports that they mind them, I'll switch to something quieter. I wonder if anybody around you would really mind undampened tactile switches.

I'm using Matias' quiet "linear" switches right now, which aren't totally silent, but they're quieter than most rubber domes. I put linear in quotes because there's actually a tactile event at the bottom of travel ... which is quite a bit lower than actuation. I think they feel great though.

Do you have any switch recommendations that I should try? As I like soldering and tinkering around with stuff I am quite interested in any new stuff I can try.

As I said before, I'm no fan of MX or clones. The only tactile switches I have tried that I could find myself typing on regularly without a lot of effort to force myself is Alps and Matias. Their tactility is sharp and crisp, like a clicky. There are dampened varieties of both, although good Alps switches are getting harder and harder to find. I have found some stock "quiet click" as Matias calls them (they're dampened tactiles) to not be as perfectly smooth out of the box as their "linear" or clicky switches, but I have at least one used board that feels nice and smooth as well. They're still smoother than most unmodified MX and clone switches that I have tried out of the gate though.

If you like the rounded bump of most MX and clone switches, I couldn't help you other than maybe trying Topre. It is essentially a really refined rubber dome, which uses capacitive sensing on a PCB instead of a membrane. It is buttery smooth and a lot of people who like MX tactiles end up gravitating towards it once they've tried it. I have a 55g Topre board and it would definitely make my own shortlist of tactiles. There are a lot of threads about it all on here though. If you post what, specifically, you like in a tactile switch in the Keyboards section, people who have done a lot more experimentation with MX tactiles than me could chime in.




Offline b0x1

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Re: Hi from Switzerland
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 13:16:23 »
Well, you could swap springs in the Gateron clears at least, if you wanted to make them heavier. What was wrong with the Flaretech opticals? I have never tried them. There are a few different manufacturers trying their hand at opticals now, hall effect too.

Yeah also thought about changing the springs on the gateron clears - but didnt bother me enough for Gaming that I left them as they are and in the end I found myself liking the low springforce during longer gaming sessions.

The Flaretechs feel very cheap all in all - dont know how to describe... High amount of Key wobble in combination with a cheap plasticky sound? If you know what I mean. I also tried to lube them very carefully but that way I messed up the optical detection in most of the switches - unfortunately; but they felt much better then  :p  The first revision was totally awful - the second revision that came a year later was some what useful. Also they are very sensible, if you get any kind of dust inside the switch the optical signal is bugging out occasionally, quite annoying...

Hall effect is a technology that I am really interested in. I already preordered the Wooting Lekker Edition more than a Year ago which seems to be the best implementation of Hall Effect switches in my opinion. At first they tried to produce the switches themselves but then went with Gateron due to manufacturing issues... Hoping to get the Board soon so I could maybe post a review. Hall Effect should also be immune to lubing - so I am sure I`ll try it again :p

A lot of people love Zilent switches, so if you like MX tactiles I imagine you'll be happy with them. Especially so if you're prioritizing noise over feel. I have never tried them myself though.

Oh yes - just finished the build yesterday and its perfect for what I need. The feel of the Zilents is great and the sound is sooo silent - iam impressed. Although I usually like the noise of mech Keyboards for my use case its very crucial to be quiet. Because unfortunately I am working in a Hospital and all people in Hospitals are constantly pissed - COVID is not helping with that either.


And thank you for your recommendations on switches. I totally need to check out the: "Other than MX-stile market" Have heard a lot about those Alps switches but never tried them myself. Maybe I give those a try soon.

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Hi from Switzerland
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 22 March 2021, 14:21:39 »
Well, you could swap springs in the Gateron clears at least, if you wanted to make them heavier. What was wrong with the Flaretech opticals? I have never tried them. There are a few different manufacturers trying their hand at opticals now, hall effect too.

Yeah also thought about changing the springs on the gateron clears - but didnt bother me enough for Gaming that I left them as they are and in the end I found myself liking the low springforce during longer gaming sessions.

The Flaretechs feel very cheap all in all - dont know how to describe... High amount of Key wobble in combination with a cheap plasticky sound? If you know what I mean. I also tried to lube them very carefully but that way I messed up the optical detection in most of the switches - unfortunately; but they felt much better then  :p  The first revision was totally awful - the second revision that came a year later was some what useful. Also they are very sensible, if you get any kind of dust inside the switch the optical signal is bugging out occasionally, quite annoying...

I have never cared about wobble myself, not something I really notice. If they sound even cheaper and more plasticky than MX, that is a major feat. What was better about the second revision? I'm sure there's some way to lube them without ruining actuation, but I'm the kind of person that prefers unlubricated Costar stabilizers to what most people use. lol. I have never lubed a single switch and never plan on it.

Hall effect is a technology that I am really interested in. I already preordered the Wooting Lekker Edition more than a Year ago which seems to be the best implementation of Hall Effect switches in my opinion. At first they tried to produce the switches themselves but then went with Gateron due to manufacturing issues... Hoping to get the Board soon so I could maybe post a review. Hall Effect should also be immune to lubing - so I am sure I`ll try it again :p

I want the Silo switches, because of the mechanisms they'll be using. An Alps-like mechanism for their tactiles and a beam spring mechanism for the clickies. I have heard good things about the Wooting setup though too.

A lot of people love Zilent switches, so if you like MX tactiles I imagine you'll be happy with them. Especially so if you're prioritizing noise over feel. I have never tried them myself though.

Oh yes - just finished the build yesterday and its perfect for what I need. The feel of the Zilents is great and the sound is sooo silent - iam impressed. Although I usually like the noise of mech Keyboards for my use case its very crucial to be quiet. Because unfortunately I am working in a Hospital and all people in Hospitals are constantly pissed - COVID is not helping with that either.

That's good to hear. A hospital environment makes sense for a stealth keyboard. Ironically, I know that Unicomp makes a lot of medical-use membrane buckling spring boards for GE, and others.

And thank you for your recommendations on switches. I totally need to check out the: "Other than MX-stile market" Have heard a lot about those Alps switches but never tried them myself. Maybe I give those a try soon.

Alps is very susceptible to dirt and dust, and most of the good ones haven't been made in a very long time. I'm not sure whether or not this carries over to Matias, or how much of that was due moreso to the factory lubrication than anything else. It seems like Alps switches that were not factory lubed fare better than the others when having had a rough life.

Offline b0x1

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Re: Hi from Switzerland
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 05:05:44 »
I have never cared about wobble myself, not something I really notice. If they sound even cheaper and more plasticky than MX, that is a major feat. What was better about the second revision? I'm sure there's some way to lube them without ruining actuation, but I'm the kind of person that prefers unlubricated Costar stabilizers to what most people use. lol. I have never lubed a single switch and never plan on it.

The second revision had a little tighter fit stem and housing which made the feeling little better - but still way worse than cherry switches. I didnt mess around with precise lubing because I didnt like the feel at all.

I want the Silo switches, because of the mechanisms they'll be using. An Alps-like mechanism for their tactiles and a beam spring mechanism for the clickies. I have heard good things about the Wooting setup though too.

I checked out the Silo Switches and you are right, they are quite interessting. Much more than those from Wooting, because their Switches are going to be like Gaterons in the best case and I dont expect somthing fancy and special if im honest. I am just little hyped by this hole Hall Effect thing because I like the idea behind it a lot.

Alps is very susceptible to dirt and dust, and most of the good ones haven't been made in a very long time. I'm not sure whether or not this carries over to Matias, or how much of that was due moreso to the factory lubrication than anything else. It seems like Alps switches that were not factory lubed fare better than the others when having had a rough life.

Sounds interesting, definitely something I`ll look into when I have some money to spend...  ;D

Offline Maledicted

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Re: Hi from Switzerland
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 24 March 2021, 13:03:39 »
I have never cared about wobble myself, not something I really notice. If they sound even cheaper and more plasticky than MX, that is a major feat. What was better about the second revision? I'm sure there's some way to lube them without ruining actuation, but I'm the kind of person that prefers unlubricated Costar stabilizers to what most people use. lol. I have never lubed a single switch and never plan on it.

The second revision had a little tighter fit stem and housing which made the feeling little better - but still way worse than cherry switches. I didnt mess around with precise lubing because I didnt like the feel at all.

They must be pretty cheaply made if they feel worse than Cherry. Oh well, at least they made something a little different.

I want the Silo switches, because of the mechanisms they'll be using. An Alps-like mechanism for their tactiles and a beam spring mechanism for the clickies. I have heard good things about the Wooting setup though too.

I checked out the Silo Switches and you are right, they are quite interessting. Much more than those from Wooting, because their Switches are going to be like Gaterons in the best case and I dont expect somthing fancy and special if im honest. I am just little hyped by this hole Hall Effect thing because I like the idea behind it a lot.

I'm done with MX and clones, but almost anything is compelling with adjustable points of actuation.

Alps is very susceptible to dirt and dust, and most of the good ones haven't been made in a very long time. I'm not sure whether or not this carries over to Matias, or how much of that was due moreso to the factory lubrication than anything else. It seems like Alps switches that were not factory lubed fare better than the others when having had a rough life.

Sounds interesting, definitely something I`ll look into when I have some money to spend...  ;D

I hope, then, that Alps prices and supply stay stable ... or even go down somehow then.