Switches?

[Me]

So as you know, I am building my first custom kb. I bought the pieces recently, and after feeling the switches that I bought, my dad instantly demanded for me to build him one. I am going to go with a standard pcb build as oppose to the more complicated option that I chose for my personal kb, which is handwiring, to avoid hassle. He wants a standard layout anyway. I bought all three types of switches(clicky, tactile, and linear), and he likes clicky with a lot of tactility but not too heavy. Any recommendations?

(He also writes a lot, being a scientist and needing to write a lot of papers, so it can't be too much of a fatiguing switch)

Thanks!

[MIGHTY CHICKEN]

Box navies/Jades with a spring swap might do the trick? They are currently on mega sale on Novelkeys, although I dunno how far low in terms of spring weight they can take.

[HungerMechanic]

BOX Jades are definitely the recommendation here, although as the chicken said, it might be better to go with a lighter spring.

I think Kailh attempted something like this from the factory with BOX Pinks, which have a lesser clickbar than the Jades with a lighter spring, or something like that. You can go BOX White, but that's really light and less clicky/tactile.

Also, if BOX clickies are overkill, he might consider GAOTE Blues or OUTEMU Blues. The GAOTE [which come with certain boards] are light but clicky. The OUTEMU are next-level in terms of making a loud noise, and they are pretty tactile, but not heavy. They might be a bit overkill in terms of noise, and aren't as consistent in weight, but they are a blast.

[Maledicted]

What clicky switches did you have for him to try? What would we be considering to be too fatiguing? I find MX black to be a lot more fatiguing than something like box navies. For some reason, the tactile event seems to help for me.

I think Kailh attempted something like this from the factory with BOX Pinks, which have a lesser clickbar than the Jades with a lighter spring, or something like that. You can go BOX White, but that's really light and less clicky/tactile.

Yes, they have a medium-sized clickbar and I think an intermediately weighted spring between something like navies and whites. As such the balance between tactility and spring weighting are very similar to navies, just less stiff and less tactile. They're also relatively low in pitch though, like jades.

Also, if BOX clickies are overkill, he might consider GAOTE Blues or OUTEMU Blues. The GAOTE [which come with certain boards] are light but clicky. The OUTEMU are next-level in terms of making a loud noise, and they are pretty tactile, but not heavy. They might be a bit overkill in terms of noise, and aren't as consistent in weight, but they are a blast.

I think those are the best options for MX or clones in the clicky department, at least that I have tried.

Suggestions so far have been good. If you need a highly tactile, satisfying clicky switch that's MX compatible, jades are a favorite of most (including myself0.

If he doesn't need something custom/customizable, vintage or Matias clicky switches are even better. 

[Leopard223]

Box navies/Jades with a spring swap might do the trick? They are currently on mega sale on Novelkeys, although I dunno how far low in terms of spring weight they can take.

The spring is not the issue with the Jades, bvut rather the thick clickbar, jade spring is already streching the line, a bit of a tight plate that might squeeze the housing a bit will cause the switch to return slower due to the housing having a bit of friction with the stem.

I'll suggest the BOX pink, 0.27 clickbar, sort of the middle between the White/Pale blue 0.25 thinbar and the Jade/Navy 0.30 thickbar, with a medium spring, spec sheet says 55g bottom out but I measured 65g with 60g accuation force, pleasant typing experience IMO, though I prefer a bit lower spring weight (50-55 like the Jades).
I havn't had the chance to test the other ones but I know the thickbar ones have explosive tactility and thinbar ones are pretty much lacking, so I'd suggest getting one of the Kailh switch testers, I found some huge BOX switch testers on AliExpress for around $20.

[Me]

Allright, all these suggestions sound pretty good, and what I might go with in the end is giving him the switches I bought for my personal kb(which he says that he really liked), and for me get some navy/jades and swap the springs for a 55 to 65g bottom out. I have heard that a light spring(like on the jades) sometimes cannot handle the thick clickbar, so would that be a problem with say, nk's 56g bottom out springs?

[Me]

Also the springs on the switches I got(pale blues) are pretty heavy so I'll prob swap them for the springs that I'll buy

[Maledicted]

Allright, all these suggestions sound pretty good, and what I might go with in the end is giving him the switches I bought for my personal kb(which he says that he really liked), and for me get some navy/jades and swap the springs for a 55 to 65g bottom out. I have heard that a light spring(like on the jades) sometimes cannot handle the thick clickbar, so would that be a problem with say, nk's 56g bottom out springs?

There's 0 issue with return on bone stock jades. I have a HTPC frankenboard I made out of an old TG3 cop keyboard that I have used pretty heavily basically every night from bed for at least a year that has jades in it. I toss that board around (since it doesn't mind, and it was beat up when I got it cheap used on Ebay anyway). I haven't had any problems with it. I do have some SPRiT springs lying around that I got to play with, but I don't know that I ordered any as weak as 56g. I would worry about them reliably returning if you go much weaker than the stock spring, but I don't know myself.

I'll ask again though, which switches did he try? Of those that he tried, did any of them seem too stiff? Were pale blues too stiff?

[Me]

Well, he said that he liked the feel of them a lot, but they were too heavy for him so I decided to swap the springs. One thing I am worried about is that I've heard that kailh box springs are smaller and cannot be interchanged with regular springs. Would springs from Novelkeys work with them?

[Maledicted]

Well, he said that he liked the feel of them a lot, but they were too heavy for him so I decided to swap the springs. One thing I am worried about is that I've heard that kailh box springs are smaller and cannot be interchanged with regular springs. Would springs from Novelkeys work with them?

Pale blues aren't tactile enough for me, personally. If he liked those, he may not mind just going down to overall lighter switches. What other switches did he have to try? Box whites are the same clickbar with a lighter spring. The jades have the thick clickbars and a lighter spring than the pale blues. Generally, with the box family, the thicker the clickbar the more tactile, the lighter the spring the more tactile. When the spring weighting goes up, tactility goes down, if clickbar thickness goes down so does tactility. Box pinks came about as a compromise switch because of people who wanted more tactility than box whites or pale blues but were worried about jades returning properly with a lighter spring weighting.

You could definitely benefit from a switch tester if you don't have one.

[Me]

ok, ill keep that in mind I think I might buy a switch tester after all. I mean, what harm can it do?

[Maledicted]

Somehow I managed to forget to add that the box springs are not the same as MX. I have only ordered some through SPRiT, since they offered a lot of different interesting options, including alternative clickbars. Having tried some of the more hyped-up options, I think it is mostly smoke and mirrors. If you do want to do spring swaps for weighting reasons though, they will work for your purposes.

I think others have released similar options. I haven't looked into them since I basically wrote off tweaking box switches. Nothing I tried felt any better than bone stock jades or navies to me.

Testers really come in handy in narrowing down what someone's tastes are before committing to a whole bag full of switches. They pay for themselves pretty quickly considering how few switches you'll end up buying en masse and then deciding you would rather use something else anyway.

[Me]

Yep, that's a pretty good idea

[treeleaf64]

just give him some ergo clear.   I know people say they like clicky. but they haven't tried it for 3 weeks straight. it gets on your nerves

[Me]

I'm good with noise. Especially a really bassy sound. As an example, when I listen to any modern rock music, the part that I enjoy the most is always the deep boom boom of the bass and percussion. I don't know what it is, but it just has a weird effect on me. I tried clickies and tactiles with a POM plate, and they both sounded amazing. I didn't like the feel of the pale blues however, and I absolutely loved the royals. Now I want to find an XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXtremly tactile switch thats med-high weight. That's all. Oh, and also clicky.

[Me]

any suggestions?

[Maledicted]

just give him some ergo clear.   I know people say they like clicky. but they haven't tried it for 3 weeks straight. it gets on your nerves

If he likes clickies, why ergo clear? If you want clickies, you usually want some sharp and crisp tactility and/or some noise. MX will not do that. I haven't used any MX tactiles for 3 weeks straight, but I have used halo trues that long, since they came in my Drop ALT. The more I used them, the more I disliked the MX-specific tactile event and plasticky feel and sound. I didn't want to type on them anymore and don't plan to again. Topre and Matias tactiles though I keep in occasional rotation. I'm using 55g Topre right now, at another location I have had Matias quiet clicks set up for the last few weeks. I like those a lot more than any MX or clone tactile I have tried and I still don't like them nearly as much as a good clicky switch.

I'm good with noise. Especially a really bassy sound. As an example, when I listen to any modern rock music, the part that I enjoy the most is always the deep boom boom of the bass and percussion. I don't know what it is, but it just has a weird effect on me. I tried clickies and tactiles with a POM plate, and they both sounded amazing. I didn't like the feel of the pale blues however, and I absolutely loved the royals. Now I want to find an XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXtremly tactile switch thats med-high weight. That's all. Oh, and also clicky.

If you want a thunderously bassy clicky switch, you want Alps SKCM blue. Unfortunately, they haven't been manufactured since 1989.  They also fit your other parameters, and are considered by many to be the best clicky switch ever made (there is debate of course, but all contenders are vintage switches from the 70s and 80s). Alps SKCM white replaced blue and the early ones feel very similar, but they were produced for a number of years and underwent iterative changes throughout that time. Any complicated (SKCM) clicky Alps switch would still be hard to beat by anything manufactured today. If you want something modern that fits all of those parameters, you want box jades. I think their vague similarities to Alps SKCM are part of why they're so popular.

If pitch is less important, beamspring and capacitive buckling spring are also contenders for the best clicky switches ever made in terms of feel, for which you will find no modern analogues for comparison. Unicomp's Model Ms would be the closest thing without getting a new production Model F from Ellipse.

Bassy clicky switches are anomalous, very few designs have ever turned out that way.

A comprehensive switch tester (especially with as many of the clicky variants of the box family you can find) will help you to narrow down your tastes in clicky switches without having to hunt down expensive relics.

[Me]

I've watched chyrosan's vid about the best clicky switches, and just out of curiosity, wouldn't SKCM amber be better for me seeing as I want more tactility? Also, I would love to be able to use SKCM blue or amber or somesuch, but the thing is, as you said, they just aren't reasonable to get ahold of. I have read a lot about Jades/Navies and just got myself too confused about it all(now I know not to read too many reviews), so I wanted a clear answer. Do jades have trouble returning? Are navies too heavy? Can and/or should you swap the springs in either?

[Maledicted]

I've watched chyrosan's vid about the best clicky switches, and just out of curiosity, wouldn't SKCM amber be better for me seeing as I want more tactility? Also, I would love to be able to use SKCM blue or amber or somesuch, but the thing is, as you said, they just aren't reasonable to get ahold of. I have read a lot about Jades/Navies and just got myself too confused about it all(now I know not to read too many reviews), so I wanted a clear answer. Do jades have trouble returning? Are navies too heavy? Can and/or should you swap the springs in either?

If you really needed one of the most tactile switches ever made, probably, yes. What's the most tactile clicky switch you've tried thus far? SKCM blue is already up there with jades, which are the most tactile clicky switch in production today that I'm aware of. I have never seen SKCM amber, much less felt them, so I can't make any direct comparisons.

Matias switches are clones of simplified Alps, so they're not identical to Alps SKCM, but they're the closest thing you'll get to SKCM in a modern mass market board. I prefer them to box jades. Unfortunately, you're stuck with all of the limitations of Alps in terms of aftermarket customization.

I have already answered your question about jades having trouble returning. That's myth/perception. I have swapped jades into something like 4-5 separate boards now, I have used one of those boards heavily daily for roughly a year. I have had 0 issues with them whatsoever. What I don't know is how low of weighting you can go with custom springs before that becomes a real problem, because the slider is clearly a little sluggish returning to a resting position with the stock springs.

Navies are not too heavy for me, even though I always found MX blacks and the membrane buckling spring of the Model M to be too heavy. I'm not yet sure if that's because I got used to heavier clicky switches in general in typing on Alps SKCM and capacitive buckling spring before I ever acquired any navies, or if the characteristics of the box design specifically somehow helped with that. Part of my problem is I don't particularly like how membrane buckling spring or MX black feel ... so I haven't had any motivation to go back and put that to the test. Going from standard MX weightings straight to anything like MX black, membrane buckling spring, or box navies is a dramatic transition.

[Me]

OK. So It looks like I have 2 choices. I either can go with navy/jades, or somehow find skcm blues/amber.

[Me]

There is still on thing I am confused about. If I buy springs from novelkeys, will they be able to work with the navies/jades?

[Maledicted]

There is still on thing I am confused about. If I buy springs from novelkeys, will they be able to work with the navies/jades?

NovelKeys seems to only list MX springs, unless I'm missing something. MX springs will not work in box switches.

[Me]

ok

[treeleaf64]

I just said    Make sure people know what they are getting into when they use clicky
It takes a while to see whether you really like them.

[Maledicted]

I just said    Make sure people know what they are getting into when they use clicky
It takes a while to see whether you really like them.

That may be the case for some, and not so for others. I went straight from MX red (purchased for gaming) to MX blue, once I knew that was a thing. I typed happily away on that for years before I ever tried a tactile switch that wasn't rubber dome/dome with slider.

I liked MX blue so much at the time that I bought multiple more K70s to stage them around in places I would frequently type. I do imagine ergo clear is a good candidate for determining whether or not you might like tactiles.

I also think that's part of the problem though. As you work out what you like, if you've only tried certain switches, you may make a determination on switch type based only on your limited experience. I think that if I went into it immediately comparing MX blue to Topre, I might choose Topre and swear off clicky switches. This is an easy pitfall to fall into for both tactile and clicky switches since the most common of either are pretty trash. MX brown vs MX blue and I think I can pretty reasonably say most people would choose MX blue (barring sound considerations). If they never look back, they become a clicky person.

Now that I have tried a pretty good variety of switches, I can't even stand using MX blue anymore.

[HungerMechanic]

There is still on thing I am confused about. If I buy springs from novelkeys, will they be able to work with the navies/jades?

Kailh BOX is a different internal design than Cherry MX.

What that means is that you can't use Cherry MX springs in Kailh BOX housings.

You can buy Kailh BOX springs independently, from places like GBoards.ca

https://www.gboards.ca/product/sprit-springs

[Me]

This is a relatively old post by now, so ima close it. Thanks!