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Offline EverythingIBM

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #100 on: Fri, 03 September 2010, 21:12:57 »
Quote from: kishy;219703
Yeah, it's one of these (submodel 045, not all original however).

Would be running OS/2 (y'know, something worth bothering with) except I can't find a TCP/IP stack for 2.x.


Only 15 MB of RAM? You need something more like this (ohhh yeah, sadly I didn't get it on the internet, I put the bitmap on a floppy and then converted it to a PNG, from 900kb to 20!):
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline microsoft windows

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #101 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 09:31:14 »
I see you got it running in 640x480.

Don't forget to get that thing on the Internet though!
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Offline Konrad

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #102 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 10:05:42 »
You guys worry me.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #103 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 10:54:58 »
My laptop can run something like 300-400 instances of Windows 95 inside VMs.

So basically I can simulate MW's entire town using VMware...
« Last Edit: Sat, 04 September 2010, 10:57:22 by ch_123 »

Offline microsoft windows

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #104 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 11:29:57 »
Quote from: ch_123;219843

So basically I can simulate MW's entire town using VMware...


And I can simulate your whole city with my Gateway2000.
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Offline chimera15

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #105 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 14:00:43 »
Quote from: kishy;219697
Complete with the authentic Windows 95 Paint inefficient file format, here ya go:

Show Image


Show Image


 Awesome.  I should load win95 on my 386 laptop I have. It's got even less ram I'm pretty sure. lol
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline chimera15

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #106 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 14:02:38 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;219858
And I can simulate your whole city with my Gateway2000.
Show Image

Wow, looks strange in color.  I used to play this, way back when, then later sim cities got so processor hungry.  I could barely run the last one on my p4.  I don't get why.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Konrad

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #107 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 15:34:23 »
SC2000 is bloated and full of memory leaks, also plays dirty with Windows. It'll even lock an i7 if you let it run long enough, 64-bit protected OS notwithstanding.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #108 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 16:07:15 »
Quote from: Konrad;219924
SC2000 is bloated and full of memory leaks, also plays dirty with Windows. It'll even lock an i7 if you let it run long enough, 64-bit protected OS notwithstanding.


I know a guy who took some ancient Mac Performa, put Sim Tower on it, and let it run continiously for something like 1.5-2 years. Stuff like the date and the bank balance ran into integer overflow issues and got stuck as some crazy values, but the game still ran away.

Offline EverythingIBM

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #109 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 16:34:06 »
Quote from: ch_123;219843
My laptop can run something like 300-400 instances of Windows 95 inside VMs.

So basically I can simulate MW's entire town using VMware...


Actually, emulating windows 95 (in virtual PC) is so bloody slow, and there's no drivers for it. It's actually easier and faster just to run it natively. Games that change music (CD audio or MIDI tracks) will also have issues of hanging or long pauses when it changes due to not being a pentium 1 processor.

Quote from: ch_123;219932
I know a guy who took some ancient Mac Performa, put Sim Tower on it, and let it run continiously for something like 1.5-2 years. Stuff like the date and the bank balance ran into integer overflow issues and got stuck as some crazy values, but the game still ran away.


Wouldn't it just be easier to get something to make the game run ultra fast?

Quote from: Konrad;219924
SC2000 is bloated and full of memory leaks, also plays dirty with Windows. It'll even lock an i7 if you let it run long enough, 64-bit protected OS notwithstanding.


I never had issues with it.

Quote from: chimera15;219907
Wow, looks strange in color.  I used to play this, way back when, then later sim cities got so processor hungry.  I could barely run the last one on my p4.  I don't get why.


I played sim city 3000 ultimate on my 300PL. I must have been crazy because on some of the big scenarios, it took a long time to load. Surprised the computer never crashed or anything. I guess if I had more RAM than what was installed (64 MB?), like 384, it would have ran faster.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline microsoft windows

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #110 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 16:36:42 »
I remember Sim City 2000 on the old Hewlett Packard (90 Mhz, 64MB of RAM, Windows 95). Ran fine for hours.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #111 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 16:44:44 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;219944
I remember Sim City 2000 on the old Hewlett Packard (90 Mhz, 64MB of RAM, Windows 95). Ran fine for hours.


Yeah my cousin would leave it run all night to get extra money. I did that once with roller coaster tycoon... inadvertently due to falling asleep.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline ch_123

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #112 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 16:49:33 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;219942
Actually, emulating windows 95 (in virtual PC) is so bloody slow, and there's no drivers for it. It's actually easier and faster just to run it natively. Games that change music (CD audio or MIDI tracks) will also have issues of hanging or long pauses when it changes due to not being a pentium 1 processor.


Virtualization != Emulation. As for drivers - depends on what VM software you are using. VMware is pretty good for supporting old OSes. Most of them make the guest OS think that they are running on a system with old hardware, even Windows 3.11 recognizes VMware's LAN drive out of the box.

As for CPU speed - if you were running 300 virtual machines on the one quad core CPU, you'd never have any issues with the CPU being too fast.

For old games, DOSbox is excellent. That is a proper emulator in that it will emulate either a 286, 386 or 486, depending on your preference.

Quote
Wouldn't it just be easier to get something to make the game run ultra fast?


When the baseline is "leave a computer on in a dusty corner in a place where you don't have to pay for electricity", it's hard to make it any easier. Not that leaving it in a corner for 2 years was hard to begin with.

Offline EverythingIBM

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #113 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 16:57:11 »
Quote from: ch_123;219950
Virtualization != Emulation. As for drivers - depends on what VM software you are using. VMware is pretty good for supporting old OSes. Most of them make the guest OS think that they are running on a system with old hardware, even Windows 3.11 recognizes VMware's LAN drive out of the box.

As for CPU speed - if you were running 300 virtual machines on the one quad core CPU, you'd never have any issues with the CPU being too fast.

For old games, DOSbox is excellent. That is a proper emulator in that it will emulate either a 286, 386 or 486, depending on your preference.


No, this also applies to windows 9x games. You can emulate them as much as you want, but there will always be issues and pauses with music.
DOSBox sometimes does a good job -- but whole games themselves tend to be slow throughout (I mean resource hungry ones).

So the best solution is running it all native.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #114 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 17:15:50 »
I was never happy with DOSBox, but then that was years ago and I see now that the version number has leaped.  My main issue was that it wouldn't properly slowdown games without also slowing down Windows-global behaviour.  Nice to simulate a 16MHz performance level when you're gunning at mechs, not nice at all when you're trying to navigate a mouse cursor through menus.  Has it been fixed?
 
I find many music problems are resolved with a few choice files inserted into Windows from my trusty old Creative SB16 Setup CD.  A couple lines in the Registry, the usual SET BLASTER= and one restart later all is well ... at least in the DOS-era games I play.
... Armada 2525, MoO/MoO2, Ascendency, MW series, Privateer series, SC/SC2K, Empires (I think that's what it's called), some D&D-like questy/heros things, wizardry, ultima 1-4 ... all abandonware these days, I know there's others I can't recall atm.
 
Incidentally my bold claim about SC2000 might really be about the Vesa Doctor add-on thingy that's necessary to get the game running on modern machines, I think it might interact with video BIOS memory in mysterious and sinister ways.  Maybe SC2000 isn't that buggy at all ... though maybe it is.  Can't really test one without the other.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #115 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 18:52:30 »
I don't like DosBos. I like true MS-DOS.
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Offline Konrad

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« Reply #116 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 19:20:41 »
Quote from: microsoft windows
I don't like DosBos. I like true MS-DOS.
You mean DOSBox?
 
I ask because DOS Boss was a truly inspired and infinitely useful piece of software. Written by the Beagle Bros for Apple DOS 3.3 (or ProntoDOS, another Beagle Bros masterpiece) - later ported to Apple ProDOS, I hear.
 
I love DOS Boss.
 
I don't like DOSBox either. Bloody thing takes more hard drive space than the MS-DOS 6.22 (3 x 1.44MB floppy disk) images. And more runtime memory to operate. And it's not 100% compatible? What's the point.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #117 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 19:23:47 »
I mean a true MS-DOS system, old computer and all. Running DOS in an emulator just isn't as fun for some reason. And besides, when you've got some old computers, what else would you do?

But I'm interested in taking a look at that DOS Boss thing though.
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Offline EverythingIBM

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #118 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 19:24:12 »
Quote from: Konrad;219963
I was never happy with DOSBox, but then that was years ago and I see now that the version number has leaped.  My main issue was that it wouldn't properly slowdown games without also slowing down Windows-global behaviour.  Nice to simulate a 16MHz performance level when you're gunning at mechs, not nice at all when you're trying to navigate a mouse cursor through menus.  Has it been fixed?
 
I find many music problems are resolved with a few choice files inserted into Windows from my trusty old Creative SB16 Setup CD.  A couple lines in the Registry, the usual SET BLASTER= and one restart later all is well ... at least in the DOS-era games I play.
... Armada 2525, MoO/MoO2, Ascendency, MW series, Privateer series, SC/SC2K, Empires (I think that's what it's called), some D&D-like questy/heros things, wizardry, ultima 1-4 ... all abandonware these days, I know there's others I can't recall atm.
 
Incidentally my bold claim about SC2000 might really be about the Vesa Doctor add-on thingy that's necessary to get the game running on modern machines, I think it might interact with video BIOS memory in mysterious and sinister ways.  Maybe SC2000 isn't that buggy at all ... though maybe it is.  Can't really test one without the other.

DOSBox is good for a temporary "quick fix". But there are issues, and always will be issues. It's too slow for my taste, even when ramming CPU cycles high. Certain DOS games just go too slow, while others run at magnificent speeds.
If you want to run hardware properly, and any software, you'll do it natively.

As for Sim City 2000...


Darwin city?


Apple's Darwin OS?

Darwin Darwin?


That picture... is interesting. I think I found the missing link.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline instantkamera

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Posting on Geekhack: How much RAM and CPU does it take?
« Reply #119 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 21:11:11 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;220000
when you've got some old computers, what else would you do?


Put a real OS on them?
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Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #120 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 21:23:43 »
Quote from: instantkamera;220020
Put a real OS on them?


Actually, there's a lot of people who install windows 9x on their old computers (or even windows 3.1). I'd suggest you take a look at the vintage-computer.com forums.

But obviously you're not a vintage or old computer enthusiast; so you have no idea what runs best on older computers (nor do you even have a library of old software which is very picky and specific, especially about hardware). I sincerely doubt you even own a computer with a 8088 or pentium 1 processor.

I'd suggest you try something else besides a quanta-computer built macbook and explore different hardware and software.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline instantkamera

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« Reply #121 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 21:35:48 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;220024
Actually, there's a lot of people who install windows 9x on their old computers (or even windows 3.1). I'd suggest you take a look at the vintage-computer.com forums.

But obviously you're not a vintage or old computer enthusiast; so you have no idea what runs best on older computers (nor do you even have a library of old software which is very picky and specific, especially about hardware). I sincerely doubt you even own a computer with a 8088 or pentium 1 processor.

I'd suggest you try something else besides a quanta-computer built macbook and explore different hardware and software.



Who was talking about Windows 9x (or even windows 3.1)?

Reread what I wrote, I never said anything about a Microsoft product (didn't even mention the word "Microsoft" or "Windows"). Read the thread title.
Realforce 86UB - Razer Blackwidow - Dell AT101W - IBM model MCST  LtracX - Kensington Orbit - Logitech Trackman wheel opticalAMD PhenomII x6 - 16GB RAM - SSD - RAIDDell U2211H - Spyder3 - Eye One Display 2

Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #122 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 22:40:22 »
Quote from: instantkamera;220026
Who was talking about Windows 9x (or even windows 3.1)?

Reread what I wrote, I never said anything about a Microsoft product (didn't even mention the word "Microsoft" or "Windows"). Read the thread title.


MS-DOS is a mircosoft product. If you studied computer history, you'd know that IBM got Bill Gates to create DOS for the IBM PC. And it is a real operating system (which is the foundation for all windows versions).
Windows 9x supports restart in MS-DOS mode too. It practically is a GUI version of DOS in all reality.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #123 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 01:05:46 »
Quote from: ripster;220048
Bill Gates stole DOS from Seattle Computer Products.

If you studied computer history you'd know that....

Gates didn't steal it, he just brokered it, and took 99.999999999% of the billions of dollars that it made.  It's really Peterson's fault for selling it to him so cheap, and not having a mind for business.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 September 2010, 01:12:34 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #124 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 02:20:37 »
Quote from: ripster;220048
Bill Gates stole DOS from Seattle Computer Products.

If you studied computer history you'd know that....


No Billy G bought it, it wasn't stolen. Although it may as well be considered as stolen considering how much Bill milked off of it. But it was Paterson's fault for not foreseeing this.
http://www.patersontech.com/dos/

And Paterson only worked on it up until version 1.25. The rest microsoft handled.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #125 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 04:45:20 »
QDOS was a reverse engineered version of CP/M. It wasn't Patterson's to sell in the first place.

Quote
MS-DOS is a mircosoft product.


What is a 'mircosoft'?
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 September 2010, 04:51:21 by ch_123 »

Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #126 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 05:43:43 »
Unless you consider reverse engineering legal. If you don't, then just about every IBM-compatible computer from the mid-2000s on is illegal - EVEN IF IT WAS MADE BY IBM. (Yes, even IBM eventually started using PhoenixBIOS - a reverse engineered clone of the original IBM PC BIOS, that Compaq commissioned for the Compaq Portable.)

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #127 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 07:26:24 »
There are mechanisms to legally reverse engineer code.
 
Most nerds are familiar with the famous "clean room" technique developed (circa 1981-82) by then young startup company Phoenix Technologies to reverse-engineer IBM's BIOS ROM (firmware) code, briefly described here or here. IBM lost it's little legal tizzy against Phoenix and Compaq (makers of the first IBM clone). Thus the birth of countless IBM clones and even competing BIOS makers (Award and AMI both used the same method to reverse-engineer the Phoenix BIOS; MR and Quadtel used it to duplicate AMI BIOS; Phoenix absorbed all of them except AMI over the years). It's since become a standardized engineering methodology in computing and other industries; it allows companies to migrate or recover data from (legally protected) computing platforms without - technically - violating the letter or intent of the law. The clean room approach (now often called Chinese Wall, lol) caused a lot of complicated huffy exception clauses in the DMCA (which clearly attempts to circumlocutively denounce the approach without explicitly naming it or declaring it illegal, worth reading).
 
Many people claim that AMD and Cyrix used clean room approaches to reverse engineer Intel x86 chips.  The argument has merit, especially when applied to silicon hardware; basic compatibility specifications could be obtained from any public user manual.  The historical evidence for this is controversial, partly because Intel often sold AMD licenses (along with full specifications) to manufacture the chips they'd designed (it was the only way Intel could sell them in quantity, since US government and military policies required "2nd sourcing" availability). It bit Intel in the ass when they realized AMD was actually making more 386 and 486 parts than they were, then again when AMD absorbed Cyrix and began to play leapfrog with Intel in the endless race for newer and better chip generations. It seems highly unlikely that AMD would be able to access microprocessor-logic engineering experts who were somehow absolutely "uncontaminated" by any detailed technical knowledge of Intel chips whatsoever, a prerequisite for clean room reverse engineering ... especially since back then there were probably less than a hundred such experts available in the world, and almost all had worked for Intel (or closely with Intel) at some point in their schooling and careers.
 
An example of clean room gone bad is Apple suing the **** out of PsyStar for cloning Macs. Many people agree that PsyStar's reverse-engineering was not illegal, but Apple simply ground them into dust with hostile publicity (including mafia-style ostracism with suppliers and distributors within the industry) and merciless pressure and expense (not just the fees and fines but also numerous forced recalls and production halts) from the mighty legal machine. Incidentally, Apple's "utility patent" on their Mac ROMs expired years ago and cannot be renewed, although the piracy/cloning was blatantly obvious to everyone and Apple was right, they still didn't actually have a legal leg to stand on and should've lost. But they're very affluent and savvy, and they're legally very belligerent about protecting "their" technology and brand, having learned many hard lessons back in the days of Apple IIx clones. Beware ye who attempt to iClone. I believe that if IBM had maintained a chokehold on PC platforms by winning their challenge against Phoenix we'd all be running IIx-inspired clones instead of PC clones today.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 September 2010, 07:58:54 by Konrad »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #128 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 08:44:12 »
QDOS wasn't clean room, code was lifted verbatim from CP/M. Very vague laws on software copyright at the time allowed Patterson to get away with it.

It took the FreeDOS project something like a decade to come up with a proper clone of MS-DOS using legal means. QDOS was bashed together in a few months, and yet was pretty much identical to CP/M except that it ran on 8086s instead of 8088s. Granted, CP/M would have been much simpler to copy than the later versions of MS-DOS that FreeDOS was derived from, but you get the point I'm making.

Offline chimera15

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« Reply #129 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 09:09:09 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;220066
Unless you consider reverse engineering legal. If you don't, then just about every IBM-compatible computer from the mid-2000s on is illegal - EVEN IF IT WAS MADE BY IBM. (Yes, even IBM eventually started using PhoenixBIOS - a reverse engineered clone of the original IBM PC BIOS, that Compaq commissioned for the Compaq Portable.)

Pretty much this is true.  Every pc is pretty much a result of IBM not being able to control it's patents because its not really theirs to control in the first place.  The same reason why Apple lost against Microsoft when they sued them for Windows.  Thankfully it all goes back to the early days when the companies and people that created the stuff basically just gave it away.  

The foundation of personal computers is a communist ideal. lol  Or really Utopian.  Those that are making money from them are pretty much perverting that as capitalists.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 September 2010, 09:15:59 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline Konrad

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« Reply #130 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 09:18:09 »
Vague is an understatement.
There were simply no laws to protect software, authors certainly claimed copyrights on their code and software assumed the strange role of being a commercial commodity without being accepted as an intellectual property.  Some people attempted to legally equate authorship of code with authorship of books, they had mixed success.  The main deterrent against piracy back then was more a sense of public moral decency than fear of legal stopping power.
 
I remember laughing some years back when migrating the very last echo of my ancient 5.25" floppies onto HDD and seeing a message something like "This copy of CP/M has been unregistered for 23,837 days".
 
I never actually used QDOS, neither the 86-DOS nor Sinclair QDOS versions I've just discovered on Wikipedia.
 
Besides, my pre-Win95 days were all DOS4GW and slackware anyhow.  MSDOS622 was not as good.  OS/2 and Win3.x (and Macs) were such utter pieces of **** that I avoided GUIs entirely until about mid-1996.
 
What about PCDOS, DRDOS, and NDOS?  Are they "clean roomed" off MSDOS?

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #131 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 09:33:12 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;220024



Actually, there's a lot of people who install windows 9x on their old computers (or even windows 3.1). I'd suggest you take a look at the vintage-computer.com forums.

But obviously you're not a vintage or old computer enthusiast; so you have no idea what runs best on older computers (nor do you even have a library of old software which is very picky and specific, especially about hardware). I sincerely doubt you even own a computer with a 8088 or pentium 1 processor.

I'd suggest you try something else besides a quanta-computer built macbook and explore different hardware and software.


Don't bother with isntantkamera. He's just a dumbass. I put him in the spam filter for a reason.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 September 2010, 09:36:13 by microsoft windows »
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Offline Konrad

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« Reply #132 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 09:34:38 »
Quote from: chimera15
... Apple lost against Microsoft when they sued them for Windows. Thankfully it all goes back to the early days when the companies and people that created the stuff basically just gave it away ... Those that are making money from them are pretty much perverting that as capitalists.
Apple sued Microsoft long before that; they'd hired MS to make an FP BASIC for the AppleII ... all went well until they saw that MS was free to license AppleSoft BASIC (their code) to anyone who wanted it, ie: anyone who wanted to make an AppleII clone. Worse, Microsoft later sold ever-improving versions of their BASIC to Apple's competitors (Commodore, etc). And pulled the same stunt yet again on IBM, offering to sell MSDOS to the public (so IBM couldn't control distro and so MSDOS could run on any compatible machine, whether made by IBM or not).  Microsoft never gave a **** who made the machines, just as long as there were always more machines to run Micro-Software on.  In that regard they've actually done computing society a great favour.
 
Bill Gates was an ******* about his profits right back to the very beginning, he wrote famous letters which condemned even his nerd buddies from freely distributing copies of "his" Altair BASIC. An odd expectation; collaborating on software then trying to sell it to your collaborators (and everyone else) and getting pissed that they won't pay, worse yet, they have their own ideas about distributing it - for free! - which don't agree with yours.
 
Capitalists flocked to software once people saw how profitable the first killer app (VisiCalc) was. Ergo the false assumption of most consumers that buying apps (and the OS to run them on) is the only option. linux is maligned as "only for nerds" or is seen as some amateur bumbling kludge that can't reliably do anything worthwhile. Sucks to be a sheep. Then again, it apparently pays to be an *******, sadly.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 September 2010, 09:43:43 by Konrad »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #133 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 11:09:49 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;220094
Don't bother with isntantkamera. He's just a dumbass. I put him in the spam filter for a reason.


Is it the same reason everyone else has you in their spam filter?

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #134 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 12:17:12 »
If I used my spam filter there'd be nobody left to talk to. ;)

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #135 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 13:22:02 »
Quote from: Julle
You should see his Unix pubic hair.
Ugh. I think I'd rather run Windows or gargle razor blades.  Thanks for offering to share though, lol.
 
Random:
I wonder if subscribed threads get bumped when somebody you've filtered posts something.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #136 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 16:57:48 »
I often wonder what happens if you get a PM from someone you've blocked...

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« Reply #137 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 17:10:58 »
Quote from: Konrad;220093
I never actually used QDOS, neither the 86-DOS nor Sinclair QDOS versions I've just discovered on Wikipedia.


Microsoft ended up completely buying all the rights to those things, Patterson and SCP ended up with a lot more than $50,000 in the end, between buyouts and lawsuits. They sure as hell didn't see the half of what MS made off them though.
 
Quote
What about PCDOS, DRDOS, and NDOS?  Are they "clean roomed" off MSDOS?


PC-DOS was IBM's branding of MS-DOS. IBM licensed MS-DOS and branded it as their own product. IIRC, initial versions were the same as the MS-DOS of the equivalent version number, but later on after they split with MS, they made their own modifications and used it for POS applications and the like.

It was originally MS' intention to license the source code of MS-DOS to various vendors who would port it to their specific machine. In reality, the clone market meant that the market for DOS was limited to x86 machines based on the IBM PC architecture, and thus MS sold MS-DOS for the IBM PC exclusively. The "Don't sell it but license it to system vendors" thing was used by MS for Xenix, their implementation of BSD Unix.

Microsoft Unix, that one never ceases to amuse...

DR-DOS, which was Digital Research DOS, was made by Gary Killdall and the CP/M crew as a compatible alternative to MS-DOS. MS used all sorts of insidious bullying to keep demand low. It did achieve popularity in some sectors, and it was licensed by various parties who branded it as their own version of DOS.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #138 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 17:18:31 »
Quote from: Julle;220146
I hope MW has extra storage in his PM inbox.


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Offline bhtooefr

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« Reply #139 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 17:29:35 »
Not Sinclair QDOS, though - that was a completely different OS.

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« Reply #140 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 17:57:35 »
Such is the problem with the term "Disk Operating System" - it was such a generic term that every major vendor had a "DOS", some like IBM had a few that had nothing to do with eachother. Even Apple had one...

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« Reply #141 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 18:42:59 »
The solution is to use the developer's name, too.

IBM DOS/360 - or just use the modern name, z/VSE. ;)
Sinclair QDOS
SCP QDOS
MS-DOS
Apple DOS

So on, so on.

Offline D-EJ915

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« Reply #142 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 19:42:22 »
Quote from: kishy;219703
Yeah, it's one of these (submodel 045, not all original however).

Would be running OS/2 (y'know, something worth bothering with) except I can't find a TCP/IP stack for 2.x.


I've got 2.1 on my one of those...loading it took FOREVER ugh...19 floppies go to hell lol

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #143 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 21:10:41 »
Quote from: bhtooefr
IBM DOS/360 - or just use the modern name, z/VSE. ;)
Sinclair QDOS
SCP QDOS
MS-DOS
Apple DOS
 
So on, so on.
I think I disagree with Apple DOS.  Should DOS versions that don't run on x86's be included?

Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #144 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 22:15:20 »
Quote from: kishy;220225
Win95 is like, 24.

It had 95 when I got it, then I installed 2.1. Determined there was no easy-to-find TCP/IP stack so I went 95. Then went OS/2 again for testing some stuff, then back to 95.

I'm surprised the FDD isn't toast.


FDDs don't really fail: I opened a few up for cleaning, they're pretty simplistic, not much can break or go wrong. Some of the "rods" may need greasing now and then, but that's it.

In fact, I feel like opening another one up right now.
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Offline Konrad

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« Reply #145 on: Sun, 05 September 2010, 22:52:28 »
I've seen 3½" and 5¼" FDDs still work perfectly after ~20 years. And some older units (pre-HD capacities, even pre-PC) still working after ~30 years. Even my 1978 Apple Disk II 140KB FDDs (and early-1980s "slim" TEAC clones) still work perfectly, although I do service and maintain them every few years.
 
It's true that the drives can fail, but it happens so rarely that FDDs seem to almost always outlast the PC chassis they're mounted in. My anecdotal observation is that FDDs typically outlive HDDs (yes, I know FDDs don't accumulate as many hours of active use as HDDs). I haven't had to buy a FDD for years, they just keep moving from chassis to chassis and slowly multiplying because I so rarely find units that fail. A shame really, since I really love those uber FDD platter magnets.
 
I haven't seen many ancient (say, pre-PATA3) HDDs that still work, and I think it's been decades since I've seen a working winchester.
 
Floppy disk media though is another matter. The stupid floppy disks themselves are just ****ing unreliable. Always buy quality media; always keep 'em in safe temp zones, in a dark, dry, cozy place far away from people or anything vaguely electromagnetic ... and one disk out of every ten will still simply fail at random every year or so, I expect at least half of them to be useless. Of course it's always the stupid **** like your proprietary circa-1985 GMOUSE.EXE serial mouse driver which survives while valuable - near impossible to find on internet - things like MSDOS5.0 install disks or Gravis Ultrasound drivers always get corrupted. I hate the harsh grinding TARDIS-like noises (and delays) on a FDD when it has difficulty reading bad media.
« Last Edit: Sun, 05 September 2010, 23:15:17 by Konrad »

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #146 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 00:24:04 »
Quote from: kishy
The media, if cared for, will last a long time...problem is finding media that has been cared for well since day 1
Does that include all the time in shipping and sitting under those glaring lights at Wal-Mart?
 
Maybe we'll disagree on this.  I know many instances where drives were well maintained (regularly cleaned and lubed and calibrated) and disks carefully stored in near-ideal conditions ... and still see high failure rates, say about 1-in-10 disks at least partly corrupted after 1 year, 4-in-10 after 2 years ... although I'll admit that any which survive intact after the first few years seem to last indefinitely.
 
Most HDDs (notorious IBM Deathstars notwithstanding) seem to last at least 2-3 years of heavy use or at least 5 years normal use ... very few survive much beyond that, although more modern (SMART) drives tend to fail in more of a gradual-erosion manner than a catastrophic one.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #147 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 00:46:39 »
Why else would you use disks if not for storage?
 
Every now and then I have to recover data from ancient disks, even that's not a real issue these days since internet (abandonware) archives are always growing.
 
About the only useful place floppies have left on modern computers is emergency boot sessions or mobo firmware recovery. Even those roles are being stolen by live CDs and USBs.  Even old computers can interface well with most modern technologies.  Only the most venerable machinery still requires floppy options.

Offline Konrad

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« Reply #148 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 00:53:49 »
lol, because of their puny capacity I've never needed floppy images for anything other than DOS boot/install disks. Or the aforementioned emergency BIOS recovery (and that only when FDD-recovery is hardwired into a mobo and booting from PATA/SATA/ATAPI or USB or LAN or external drives isn't a working option and the mobo has dead firmware but otherwise works - a very rare situation).
 
Agreed, only a madman would ever use floppies for backups or long-term storage. With today's price-per-GByte HDDs, CD/DVD writables, SSDs, removable flash (USB, SD/SDHC, CF, etc), and even online storage it's no wonder that FDDs are going to the museum. In fact, I'm still half-assedly looking for a working 5¼" (1.2MB HD or better) FDD with nice black faceplate using the kind of release mechanism and LED I prefer. Can't buy 'em new, can't even really buy 'em used, can't justify more than $10.
 
Incidentally, I've recently discovered these devices while researching high-performance alternatives to SSD. (Flash is much faster than mechanical, but RAM is much faster still and doesn't suffer from a low number of write cycles. Plus RAM, being volatile, is a near perfect way to secure swap/cache/temp data if you're paranoid.)
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 September 2010, 01:19:02 by Konrad »

Offline EverythingIBM

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« Reply #149 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 05:45:14 »
Quote from: Konrad;220266
Why else would you use disks if not for storage?
 
Every now and then I have to recover data from ancient disks, even that's not a real issue these days since internet (abandonware) archives are always growing.
 
About the only useful place floppies have left on modern computers is emergency boot sessions or mobo firmware recovery. Even those roles are being stolen by live CDs and USBs.  Even old computers can interface well with most modern technologies.  Only the most venerable machinery still requires floppy options.


Flashing a BIOS you usually use a floppy disk. I never heard of using a CD/RW.

Quote from: Konrad;220262
Does that include all the time in shipping and sitting under those glaring lights at Wal-Mart?
 
Maybe we'll disagree on this.  I know many instances where drives were well maintained (regularly cleaned and lubed and calibrated) and disks carefully stored in near-ideal conditions ... and still see high failure rates, say about 1-in-10 disks at least partly corrupted after 1 year, 4-in-10 after 2 years ... although I'll admit that any which survive intact after the first few years seem to last indefinitely.
 
Most HDDs (notorious IBM Deathstars notwithstanding) seem to last at least 2-3 years of heavy use or at least 5 years normal use ... very few survive much beyond that, although more modern (SMART) drives tend to fail in more of a gradual-erosion manner than a catastrophic one.


I have two deskstars that are working perfectly fine. Nice little drives. Although they sound like SCSIs on bootup.
IBM created SMART.
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