Author Topic: IDE SSDs for old computers  (Read 32023 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EverythingIBM

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1269
IDE SSDs for old computers
« on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 04:28:44 »
I just had an evil idea... using an IDE SDD on some of my older computers. So, I wanted to bring the idea to the table with the excellent folks on here.

Reasons for doing this:
#1 older computers don't need as much space... perfect since SSDs are too expensive to buy high-capacity.
#2 faster transfer... I guess that's a bonus for when you have thousands of MIDIs and files for DOS games. To those who know, transferring many (I mean many) files takes longer than one huge file: I've always found this fairly annoying with older stuff.
#3 NO NOISE! I do have quiet IDE HDDs, but sometimes they can get noisy as they age. SSDs won't have that issue and will remain quiet as ever. A definite bonus would be no noise from vibration or anything like that.
#4 less power, I guess with PSUs under 200 watts, this is a very big advantage.
#5 less space... but this isn't too much of a concern.

So with that in mind, here's some options:
#1 DOM 8GB -- hong kong ebay special
#2 transcend 8 GB IDE SSD ($140) <-- what a ripoff
#3 transcend 32 GB IDE SSD ($114)

I think I'd go with the hong kong special if I ever plan to execute this lunacy in the future. 8GB is kind of small (32 would be much nicer), If I could get an 8GB for less, then I would be more eager to jump upon it.

But anyways,
/end of insanity
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline chimera15

  • Posts: 1441
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 05:50:54 »
Average Read Speed     45MB/Sec
Average Write Speed    13MB/Sec

That's no better than a normal ide drive is it?  The only real advantage would be really that you wouldn't have to defrag, but you're paying like 100 times what an old ide drive would cost.

The review on the third one says that it's slower than an ide drive, it took 4 hours to install windows xp on it.

Early ssd drives are horrid.  The technology wasn't perfected till like last year really.

Just get like old 10000 or 15000 rpm scsi drives, and a pci scsi controller..  That's what a friend of mine does.  You should be able to get around 100 mb/s that way.
« Last Edit: Tue, 31 August 2010, 06:00:42 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline J888www

  • Posts: 270
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 05:57:25 »
Maybe using an IDE to SATA adapter converter would offer more options of manufacturers and better SSD Drive/pricing.
Often outspoken, please forgive any cause for offense.
Thank you all in GH for reading.

Keyboards & Pointing Devices :-
[/FONT]One Too Many[/COLOR]

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 06:01:37 »
A lot of the IDE SSDs out there are made specifically for the task described by EIBM. But they're not particularly good SSDs, and represent the state of the art of about 3 years ago... You're going to run into issues with long term longevity and performance. Even out of the box, they may not be much faster than a good platter drive, and may consume as much power and generate as much heat. Make sure you read up reviews on any model you consider buying, and if you can't find one, don't bother buying it.

Offline bhtooefr

  • Posts: 1624
  • Location: Newark, OH, USA
  • this switch can tick sound of music
    • bhtooefr.org
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 08:21:07 »
Better to take advantage of economies of scale, and get a good CF card, and a CF to IDE converter.

Offline Zen

  • Posts: 96
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 09:05:32 »
Quote from: chimera15;218464
Average Read Speed     45MB/Sec
Average Write Speed    13MB/Sec

That's no better than a normal ide drive is it?  

There is a lot more to HDD than just average read-write speeds,
SSD has less than 1ms access-time, better IOPS numbers
(a LOT better for the new Indilinx-based drives) and also better random write performance,
but you are right,some of the "old" SSD perform horrible, especially in the random write department,
so do read some tests before buying .
If you can find an "old" Mtron IDE SSD with Single Level Cell flash you
wont be disappointed ..

Offline Megaweapon

  • Posts: 188
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 10:13:21 »
I too have thought about this topic as my MAME cabinet runs DOS.  Unfortunately I have yet to find any good options.  The IDE SSD's are ridiculously expensive, the PCI SATA adapters require drivers which don't exist, the IDE -> SATA adapters are unreliable in scary ways (not just failing but writing garbage to your drive while doing so).

The only option I haven't totally discounted:

Quote from: bhtooefr;218490
Better to take advantage of economies of scale, and get a good CF card, and a CF to IDE converter.


What is a good CF card to get?  The only person I've talked to who has done this admitted that it wasn't even as fast as a normal hard drive.  I'm wondering if he was just buying the wrong gear...
Ancer Research Groop DFK191ABA11 IBM Model M13 Part 92G7461 (white) Rosewill RK-9000
Matias Tactile Pro 3 Apple Extended Keyboard II (ALPS)
Rosewill RK-9000I

Offline bhtooefr

  • Posts: 1624
  • Location: Newark, OH, USA
  • this switch can tick sound of music
    • bhtooefr.org
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 10:43:15 »
Look at the specs, see what they are.

The ones that are good for sticking in a DSLR and shooting a crapton of RAWs at once, those are the ones that are the best.

That said, also look at the specs on your machine's IDE controller - many IDE controllers can't even take advantage of a fast CF card, so the only gain you get is from the lower latency, and you can get that on any cheap crappy card.

I use CF in a (1989) Apple IIGS ROM 3 with a Parsons Engineering Focus Hard Card (now the 16 Sector Focus IDE Controller, the difference being that the Parsons one is green, the newer versions are all red. Actually, I bought it from 16 Sector, even) which is attached to an 8-bit 1 MHz bus - so that's 1 MiB/s THEORETICAL max - and in an Acorn RiscPC with a Yellowstone Educational Solutions RapIDE32, which has a theoretical 16.67 MiB/s bandwidth.

Neither of those will be affected by slow CF. Like I said, look at what your IDE controller can do - if your IDE controller is slow, CF performance won't matter, and you'll still notice an improvement due to the lack of latency.

Offline ricercar

  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 1697
  • Location: Silicon Valley
  • mostly abides
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 11:49:35 »
I'm using a 32G Ridata 233x CF (w/IDE Adapter) in an UMPC. It's somewhat faster than the rotational drive, and doubles battery life.

Informal experiments suggest you need 300x or 600x CF to really scream compared to a rotational drive.
I trolled Geekhack and all I got was an eponymous SPOS.

Offline Parak

  • Posts: 532
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 12:11:41 »
IDE SSDs you say? For old computers? Less space is not a concern? Why I just happen to have one of those lying right next to me!


Offline chimera15

  • Posts: 1441
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 13:19:21 »
heh 192 mb.  I guess it'd be fine for windows 95 or 98.  I'd fill it up with 4 psd graphics files. lol
« Last Edit: Tue, 31 August 2010, 13:21:24 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline JBert

  • Posts: 764
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 14:28:39 »
Good-old hard-disks have taken years to mature and are actually astonishing pieces of hardware today: just imagine the drive head floating just 0.08 mm above the platters, which pass it 7500 per minute or 125 times per second.

SSDs on the other hand might have improved read speeds a lot but write speeds are a lot less once the disk has been used.
Therefore I would refrain from using SSDs, unless you are really have money to burn, or you can guarantee that you won't write to disk very often.
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


Currently ignored by: nobody?

Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
[/SIZE]

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 14:39:28 »
I think a lot of the longevity issues are being resolved, but don't expect to see the fruits of the progress is some El Cheapo IDE SSD.

Offline mike

  • Posts: 82
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 15:00:53 »
Quote from: JBert;218608
SSDs on the other hand might have improved read speeds a lot but write speeds are a lot less once the disk has been used.


I've recently spent a fair amount of time recently investigating SSDs; turns out the big culprit for significant write slowdowns was down to a firmware bug. Most consumer-grade SSDs are not subject to significant write slowdowns (enterprise-grade SSDs are a whole different ball-game of course).

Similarly the limited amount of writes that an SSD can cope with has been misunderstood. I took the specification of a recent consumer grade SSD and calculated it would last about 350-years in a certain database server - not an especially write-heavy one, but even so!
Keyboards: Unicomp UB40T56 with JP3 removed, Unicomp UB4044A, Filco Tenkeyless Brown (with pink highlights), Access AKE1223231, IBM DisplayWriter, Das Keyboard III, and a few others.

Offline EverythingIBM

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1269
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 15:46:42 »
Quote from: chimera15;218578
heh 192 mb.  I guess it'd be fine for windows 95 or 98.  I'd fill it up with 4 psd graphics files. lol


192 MB is certainly not enough for what I'm doing with it: I think my windows 98SE install was 200 MB in itself. Billy G. needs lots of space for windows.

Quote from: ch_123;218467
A lot of the IDE SSDs out there are made specifically for the task described by EIBM. But they're not particularly good SSDs, and represent the state of the art of about 3 years ago... You're going to run into issues with long term longevity and performance. Even out of the box, they may not be much faster than a good platter drive, and may consume as much power and generate as much heat. Make sure you read up reviews on any model you consider buying, and if you can't find one, don't bother buying it.

I thought perhaps they made newer SSDs with IDE. Guess they're not honouring legacy users!

I think an adapter as jw8888 said may be a good option if nothing good comes up. Otherwise, back to samsung HDDs with their quieting.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 16:46:21 »
I think you might want a PCI SATA card. You'd be limited to the original SATA because SATA II and SATA III need PCI-E cards to support the necessary bandwidth.

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 17:57:05 »
I'd recommend just sticking with a hard disk. They might be a little noisy, but if well-cared for, they'll last forever.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 18:01:35 »
An SSD is a hard disk, dawg.

Offline EverythingIBM

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1269
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 18:12:51 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;218665
I'd recommend just sticking with a hard disk. They might be a little noisy, but if well-cared for, they'll last forever.


I have more than enough IDE HHDs to last me for a lifetime. But it's always fun to experiment.

Quote from: ch_123;218645
I think you might want a PCI SATA card. You'd be limited to the original SATA because SATA II and SATA III need PCI-E cards to support the necessary bandwidth.


That's actually a good alternative.

I don't care about the SATA II/III stuff.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline mr_a500

  • Posts: 401
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 18:17:34 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;218665
I'd recommend just sticking with a hard disk. They might be a little noisy, but if well-cared for, they'll last forever.

That's totally wrong. Hard drives are the #1 cause of failure. One year, I had 5 hard drives fail. Most of them only last 5 months before clonking and hissing - and 1 year to complete failure. They're utter crap! I've got an old 1992 hard drive that was pretty reliable, but the modern stuff is garbage.

I'd recommend CF card. I went from 5400 RPM 2.5" IDE drive to CF on my Amiga 500. It's only marginally faster, but WAY more reliable. The best is that it stays cool and is totally silent.

I did also use SD card (with SD to IDE adapter), but write speed on the SD is slower than CF for some reason.

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 18:19:01 »
Last I checked, an SSD is a type of hard drive.

Offline Oqsy

  • Posts: 861
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 20:35:48 »
Quote from: mike
I've recently spent a fair amount of time recently investigating SSDs

But my question is what have you been doing recently?
[sigpic]Currently in use: Rosewill RK9000 and CH DT225[/sigpic]
"Private misfortunes make for public welfare."

Offline EverythingIBM

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1269
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 31 August 2010, 22:04:09 »
My intention was not to start a debate over which type of hard drive is the best. The issue was an alternative to something faster/quieter. I thought SSDs would be great for older computers, and I think I'll try it out later. They're not economical in terms of pricing for a large one: therefore, getting a smaller reasonably priced one for *old software* seems like the most logical route.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN I'm going to switch all of my HDDs to SSD. Like everything else, I like to have both. I wish people would stop being so bent towards one extreme or the other.

With that said, I've never had a single hard drive fail on me: I did notice constant file transfers can agitate them to be noisier.

Since SSD is more mature now (but still expensive), I think it will make an interesting experiment later on, depending if I ever get to it.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline NamelessPFG

  • Posts: 373
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 10:32:04 »
I've thought about dropping a dual CF adapter in that old PowerBook G3 and installing two 32 GB or 64 GB cards in it. One for OS 9.2.2, one for OS X 10.4.11. Since the hard drive is the only component in the whole thing that makes noise aside from the crappy DVD-ROM drive (I don't even know if the cooling fan works!), it would also have the interesting side effect of making the system completely silent.

But I can't be bothered to spend so much on such an old computer I'm thinking of selling already, since I don't use it. (Note that the battery is just about shot and useless for anything beyond a short-term UPS, the CCFL's starting to pink out, and the DVD drive only reads data discs somewhat reliably when UPSIDE-DOWN, among other things...and the whole thing struggles to do so much as play low-quality YouTube videos. Even your garden variety Atom netbook is more powerful than that thing.)

Offline NamelessPFG

  • Posts: 373
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 10:33:33 »
I've thought about dropping a dual CF adapter in that old PowerBook G3 and installing two 32 GB or 64 GB cards in it. One for OS 9.2.2, one for OS X 10.4.11. Since the hard drive is the only component in the whole thing that makes noise aside from the crappy DVD-ROM drive (I don't even know if the cooling fan works!), it would also have the interesting side effect of making the system completely silent.

But I can't be bothered to spend so much on such an old computer I'm thinking of selling already, since I don't use it. (Note that the battery is just about shot and useless for anything beyond a short-term UPS with new ones providing a touted 8 hours at $150 each, the CCFL's starting to pink out, and the DVD drive only reads data discs somewhat reliably when UPSIDE-DOWN, among other things...and the whole thing struggles to do so much as play low-quality YouTube videos. Even your garden variety Atom netbook is more powerful than that thing.)

Offline JBert

  • Posts: 764
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #25 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 14:01:30 »
Quote from: ch_123;218645
I think you might want a PCI SATA card. You'd be limited to the original SATA because SATA II and SATA III need PCI-E cards to support the necessary bandwidth.
Won't that cause some trouble for the BIOS to boot from it?
IBM Model F XT + Soarer's USB Converter || Cherry G80-3000/Clears

The storage list:
IBM Model F AT || Cherry G80-3000/Blues || Compaq MX11800 (Cherry brown, bizarre layout) || IBM KB-8923 (model M-style RD) || G81-3010 Hxx || BTC 5100C || G81-3000 Sxx || Atari keyboard (?)


Currently ignored by: nobody?

Disclaimer: we don\'t help you save money on [strike]keyboards[/strike] hardware, rather we make you feel less bad about your expense.
[/SIZE]

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #26 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 14:20:22 »
AFAIK, if it can boot from a SCSI card, it can boot from a SATA card. I could be horribly mistaken, so if any knows for a fact that this is wrong, do point out.

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #27 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 15:01:55 »
"Add in PCI card" or whatever.

*nix systems usually treat a SATA controller as a SCSI controller. Early SATA motherboards treated the chipset as an external add-in card.

Offline chimera15

  • Posts: 1441
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #28 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 15:48:42 »
Quote from: kishy;218699
They're ALL going to fail; it's only a question of WHEN they will fail.

IMO, rotational mechanical hard drives are a better option because they often show signs of impending failure before actually dropping dead. This allows you to make provisions for replacement - get new drive, back up data, whatever. If the drive totally fails before you can do this, you can usually mix and match parts from other drives of the same model to get a working (if not for long, at least long enough to recover the most important data) frankendrive.

If flash memory chips fail, that's it, your data is GONE.

What would you rather have? Longer time before failure with a more severe and unpredictable failure, or shorter time before failure but a more recoverable situation?

I've often wondered about how the write limit and failures on ssd drives actually occur.  Do you notice the size of your hd suddenly is less, like part of the flash sectors no longer work, and so your drive starts shrinking, or you notice write error failures in windows, or do they suddenly just die?  Anyone had an ssd just die on them?
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline EverythingIBM

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1269
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #29 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 15:58:00 »
Quote from: chimera15;218938
I've often wondered about how the write limit and failures on ssd drives actually occur.  Do you notice the size of your hd suddenly is less, like part of the flash sectors no longer work, and so your drive starts shrinking, or you notice write error failures in windows, or do they suddenly just die?  Anyone had an ssd just die on them?


I don't think they would "die", perhaps just become unusable after awhile.

I've had a verbatim 128 MB jump drive for years now, and it's still working fine. I transferred countless files with it -- even civilization 3 once 128 MB at a time lol.
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #30 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 16:38:54 »
I set my standards low for computers. My computers are ugly and look like crap, and their hard disks are noisy and sound like crap. And I don't give a crap about it.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 16:59:59 »
And neither do we.

Offline chimera15

  • Posts: 1441
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 17:21:08 »
Quote from: ch_123;218955
And neither do we.

Yer so  mean.  Not all of us are rich.  I care about his take to see what you can do with as little as possible.  People are always complaining and think computers cost so much, but in reality the level of technology that we're at, and the amount of stupidity in the Western culture, people throw away stuff that's 10 times better than they actually need to do the job, just so they can have tech support and crap.
Trying to do the job with the least has merit, and is actually part of what hacking/being a geek is really about.

Anyone can build the most awesome machine if they have 10 grand.  The point as a geek is to build the awesomest thing you can with the least amount of money.
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 September 2010, 17:24:21 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 17:21:22 »
Good one...
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 17:24:55 »
My PC is actually quite modest by most standards. I just throw in new stuff now and then whenever the old stuff isn't up to scratch. I'd say the sum total of the parts in my machine wouldn't reach 1 grand if I bought them all today, let alone ten.

You're also missing the point I was making...
« Last Edit: Wed, 01 September 2010, 17:34:27 by ch_123 »

Offline microsoft windows

  • Blue Troll of Death
  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 3621
  • President of geekhack.org
    • Get Internet Explorer 6
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 17:32:49 »
I just enjoy tinkering around with my creaky old computers on rainy days. The Gateway2000 ain't all I got. I've got 11 desktops and 2 laptops. And 8 of those desktops got monitors and are on the Internet. But I get enjoyment out of going on the Internet and being the only Windows 3.1 user to visit certain web sites.

I'm my own tech support here. The warrantees for my stuff expired long ago. But the old computers just keep on chuggin along.

I actually built a "good" machine by my standards earlier this summer--A 3.2Ghz Prescott P4 with 3.5GB of RAM (That's how much 32-bit Windows 7 can recognize-I've been considering putting a 32-bit server version of 2000 that can handle more RAM). I stuck in an old 128MB video card, and it handles Windows 7 great. All the parts to do it came out of $40 worth of computers from tag sales.
CLICK HERE!     OFFICIAL PRESIDENT OF GEEKHACK.ORG    MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN MERRY CHRISTMAS

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860

Offline Megaweapon

  • Posts: 188
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 19:01:51 »
Quote from: ripster;218558
My Camcorder has 64GB and runs at Class 10 (66x).
Show Image


What IDE adapter would you use for a CF card like this?  Does it need to list compatibility with SDHC or is that assumed?
Ancer Research Groop DFK191ABA11 IBM Model M13 Part 92G7461 (white) Rosewill RK-9000
Matias Tactile Pro 3 Apple Extended Keyboard II (ALPS)
Rosewill RK-9000I

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 01 September 2010, 19:05:02 »
That's an SD card as opposed to CF. I'm not aware of any IDE adapters for SD. CF basically uses the IDE protocol anyway, thus how you can convert them so easily.

EDIT: Seems I'm wrong -


Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 02 September 2010, 07:22:43 »
i'm pretty sure all those ide ssds are pretty junkie, as in they're just made to take advantage of the pcie or 1.8 formfactor for laptops/netbooks but you aren't going to come anywhere near, modern(or even 1 year ago) ssd speeds. All these ide/ tiny ssd's are basically harddrives w/o moving parts so they save on noise and weight (and arguably power but not really).

really if you want a good small cheap blazing fast drive, get one of kingston 32g drives for 60bucks that i saw on special.
i have 2 (old by todays standards) ocz vertex in raid0 and i get 320read speeds, at the time i bought them for 100ish each, they prolly go for 80 now (and maybe less soon) but i don't think there are any good (small, cheap) ssds beyond this ocz vertex 30g(the first of the indilix firmware and what started the super great speed that lead to intel like performace on a budget and these new amazing sandforce drives)

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 02 September 2010, 07:40:54 »
Some of those low end SSDs actually use more electricity and generate more heat than a decent platter drive. Again, it pays to examine items on a case-by-case basis rather than assume they are good because they fit into a particular category. The same is true for mechanical keyboards...

Offline nraymond

  • Posts: 89
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 02 September 2010, 16:23:49 »
Quote from: chimera15;218938
I've often wondered about how the write limit and failures on ssd drives actually occur.  Do you notice the size of your hd suddenly is less, like part of the flash sectors no longer work, and so your drive starts shrinking, or you notice write error failures in windows, or do they suddenly just die?  Anyone had an ssd just die on them?


Current flash/SSD technology involves write currents which result in a slow deterioration of cells over time.  MLC (multi-level cell) wears down quicker than SLC (single-level cell).  All solid state storage works around failed cells by having hidden, spare capacity (between 10-30% of apparent capacity, higher levels reserved for 'enterprise' models).  Wear leveling to maintain performance as cells are re-written is proprietary and takes place behind the scenes.  Only with SATA and it's new TRIM command have we seen some recent interaction between operating systems and solid state storage wear-leveling, so that performance can be maintained as storage is filled up and re-written.

It will take a major shift in technology to something like a memristor to make a type of solid state storage that doesn't wear out (on paper, memristors look like they could usher in a revolution in computing, especially if it allows us to construct computers for which there is no need for differentiation between 'memory' and 'mass storage' because both could have the same capacity, throughput, and latency at a reasonable price point).

Offline Phaedrus2129

  • Posts: 1131
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 04 September 2010, 23:01:57 »
What slots would these computers have?
Daily Driver: Noppoo Choc Mini
Currently own: IBM Model M 1391401 1988,  XArmor U9 prototype
Previously owned: Ricercar SPOS, IBM M13 92G7461 1994, XArmor U9BL, XArmor U9W prototype, Cherry G80-8200LPDUS, Cherry G84-4100, Compaq MX-11800, Chicony KB-5181 (SMK Monterey), Reveal KB-7061, Cirque Wave Keyboard (ergonomic rubber domes), NMB RT101 (rubber dome), Dell AT101W

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #43 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 04:00:43 »
I've learned that it doesn't really pay to upgrade old technology to old technology.
 
But having said that, you can probably pick up used SSDs at reasonable prices.
 
Newer systems (especially at the high end) are often bottlenecked by disk transfer rates; they can benefit immensely from a decent HDD-to-SSD upgrade. Older system bottlenecks are typically caused by other hardware (bandwidth of bus, processor, RAM) and upgrading a fast drive to a faster drive won't have much overall impact. Sure, isolated benchmark scores for drive specific components will increase but real computer performance won't.
 
Most low-spec or older (say, pre-i3) computers would be better served by a far more economical fast HDD; ATA6 or better, 7200rpm or faster, 16MB or greater cache, 80-pin cabling. Real performance is nowhere near theoretical performance, best to research reported bench scores (SiSoft or other). RAID striping can trade capacity for significantly increased performance.
 
Using PCI drive controllers is not desirable on most newer mobos because integrated IDE/SATA/SCSI controllers tend to be much faster. Additionally, PCI bandwidth must be shared with all other devices on the PCI bus (not always just the PCI cards; many cheap mobo implementations logically connect USB, LAN, ICH or Winbond-style "Super I/O" LPC, integrated audio, and integrated display or even 1x/2x AGP to the PCI bus).
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 September 2010, 04:12:59 by Konrad »

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #44 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 04:30:41 »
Lolwut? I thought AGP was on its own bus, hooked up to the CPU? Any examples of this happening?

Offline EverythingIBM

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1269
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #45 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 05:37:42 »
Quote from: Konrad;220289

Most low-spec or older (say, pre-i3) computers would be better served by a far more economical fast HDD; ATA6 or better, 7200rpm or faster, 16MB or greater cache, 80-pin cabling. Real performance is nowhere near theoretical performance, best to research reported bench scores (SiSoft or other). RAID striping can trade capacity for significantly increased performance.
 
Using PCI drive controllers is not desirable on most newer mobos because integrated IDE/SATA/SCSI controllers tend to be much faster. Additionally, PCI bandwidth must be shared with all other devices on the PCI bus (not always just the PCI cards; many cheap mobo implementations logically connect USB, LAN, ICH or Winbond-style "Super I/O" LPC, integrated audio, and integrated display or even 1x/2x AGP to the PCI bus).


Instead of all of that theoretical talk, you can simplify it to this: get the best HDD for the fastest connection supported on the computer. Done.
On that note, the computer's FSB itself is 66 Mhz, so I doubt IDE or a PCI to SATA would even differ...

If AGP is attached to the PCI bus -- then it's not AGP anymore. The point of AGP was to be directly connected with the CPU instead of the PCI bus. I'm not even sure AGP would work properly if annexed to the PCI bus; would GART work?
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #46 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 06:03:33 »
Examples I'm familiar with:
 
Intel 865Gx boards. If AGP graphics are used (a GPU adapter card plugged into the AGP slot) then it works on the discrete AGP 8x bus exactly as expected. But, if Intel Extreme integrated graphics are used, then the chipset logically implements a "virtual" AGP device which directs the internal IHA bus to connect the GMCH video memory to the ICH5 (PCI hub) to allow software to "see" a display device, end result = an "AGP 8x" display which occupies (and is limited to) the bandwidth on the PCI bus.
 
The same workaround is done on many older Intel boards (810, 815/815E/815EG/815G, 845Gx; I don't know about 820x boards because I entirely avoided RDRAM), all using Intel AHA, virtual AGP devices identified as AGP 1x/2x/4x (and still limited by PCI bus bandwidth, regardless of label).
 
Others chipsets I know suck this way (but never owned): VIA (Apollo PME133, Apollo ProSavage PM133, Apollo Savage PL133T, ProSavage8 P4M266, PM800x; using VIA V-Link architecture equivalent to Intel AHA), ALi/ULi (Aladdin Pro 4 TNT2; no advanced architecture = default slow mobo bus), SiS (620, 630x, 650, 651, 661GX, 730S; sometimes using SiS MuTIOL architecture, faster than AHA when implemented but mobo default otherwise, many inefficiencies severely bottleneck practical mobo bus).
 
Worth noting are all VIA K-chipsets (for AMD), ATI Radeon IGP chipsets (330, 340, PRO 9000/9100, Xpress 200 RS400/410, 320; using ATI A-Link architecture equivalent to Intel AHA), and nVidia IGP/SPP chipsets (nForce 420, nForce2 IGP; using nVidia HyperTransport architecture, much faster than Intel AHA). These all implement discrete AGP logic and entirely avoid crossbussing; unsurprising, since they were all designed for maximum graphics performance.
 
There are many Celeron-mobile, Xeon, Sempron, and Opteron chipsets that I'm not familiar with. Truth be known, I tend to focus on Intel chipsets (on Intel CPUs), I select VIA chipsets carefully (on AMD CPUs, usually with ATI GPUs) because their products cover the entire quality spectrum from very-top to mid-bottom (and are typically inferior to their Intel counterparts for Intel processors), and I absolutely never buy the half-obsolete cheap bull**** ALi/ULi and SiS make (under a variety of misleading/temporary brands, so they don't tarnish their "real" brand names as much). Astonishingly, after being purchased by Gateway, SiS has attempted to emerge as a leader and their 740 and 741x chipsets were actually better than the Intel and VIA counterparts of the time they competed against (they correct MuTIOL flaws and avoid crossbussing, although they address less maximum physical memory).
 
PCIe-AGP hybrid boards (those using Intel 9xx or later chipsets, though I think AGP was fully abandoned before the PQ960-series) use a similar approach to logically link AGP into the PCIe bus, consuming PCIe bandwidth. It's possible that some continued to link AGP to the PCI bus instead but I've never seen one ("AGP" bandwidth would continue to be bottlenecked by PCI bus bandwidth; I've never actually had a PCIe-AGP hybrid board, just went straight to pure PCIe).
 
More modern chipsets (basically anything post Intel LGA775 or AMD AM2) don't suffer from these bus crossing issues because all the bus logic (with the exception of after-chipset PCIe lanes or USB hubs) are handled discretely by the chipset. AGP is nearly extinct. PCI is now considered a "legacy" bus.
 
Of course if your mobo isn't made by a top-tier manufacturer then all bets are off because they don't always implement all the hardware the chipset is designed to support. Alternatively, "super" mobos often pack extra onboard logic which exceeds the base chipset specifications (rarely in ways that increase maximum performance; but in ways that reduce/eliminate existing hardware performance bottlenecks or simply allow more hardware to be supported; ASUS P7P55 WS Supercomputer mobo is one recent example). Not all implementations are equal, especially at the highest and lowest ends of the mobo market.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 September 2010, 11:09:41 by Konrad »

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #47 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 07:22:15 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;220297
Instead of all of that theoretical talk, you can simplify it to this: get the best HDD for the fastest connection supported on the computer. Done.
On that note, the computer's FSB itself is 66 Mhz, so I doubt IDE or a PCI to SATA would even differ...
The theoretical talk is necessary because there aren't any HDDs which can actually sustain data transfers at their maximum PATA/SATA rates.
 
For example the best 15000rpm ATA-133 drives can sustain perhaps ~90MB/s and most will actually be closer to ~40-60MB/s or less. Most HDD manufacturers advertise somewhat misleading information based on more idealized peak performances that aren't seen in real-world use; real numbers can be seen on benchmark databases. And while the mobo IDE controller part might technically be rated at 133MB/s the chipset itself can only achieve maybe ~110-120MB/s real-world sustained transfer across the mobo (yes, even factoring in fancy internal bus architectures), assuming the mobo implementation is optimal (short traces, quality controller chips, fast glue logic, etc), and assuming the main chipset itself isn't also busy processing other high-bandwidth things (like large RAM transfers and running integrated graphics/audio/LAN and/or managing a crowded PCIe/AGP/PCI/USB bus and any number of little peripheral things).
 
An imperfect world where computing standards and specifications are always loftier than real technology can expect. (Until thresholds get bumped and new standards need to evolve.) Thus the need for more detailed analysis - especially when mixing older tech with newer tech (like fast SSD parts) - if you really want best performance for the buck.
 
The simplest approach is really to set your maximum price (allow a little wiggle room and don't forget about taxes and other bull****), see what all the shops you can visit (or craigslist or whatever) offers at that price, check benchmarks/reviews for all their available products, pick the product you like best, go get it.  You can always play the waiting game, hoping for a better deal when technology improves, but that doesn't do anything for you now, and while next year's technology will vastly improve today's top-end machinery it won't make much difference on yesterday's old PC compared to what's already available.
« Last Edit: Mon, 06 September 2010, 07:50:15 by Konrad »

Offline ch_123

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 5860
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 07:34:10 »
Nonsense, we don't need any real understanding of this stuff. Just but **** with lavender on it.

Offline Konrad

  • Posts: 348
IDE SSDs for old computers
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 06 September 2010, 07:53:25 »
?