Author Topic: Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts  (Read 4824 times)

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Offline wfaulk

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 10:38:54 »
Well everyone convinced me that I should be giving the Topre Realforce keyboard a shot.  I ordered the fullsize multi-force model and just got it in last night. After actually using it for all of five minutes, here are my initial thoughts.

First, my assumption that the keyboard looked physically underengineered was completely wrong.  The design might be … uh, retro … but the quality is 110% there.  This is a very, very, solidly built keyboard.  It's physically quite heavy (I'd guess 7-8 pounds), with zero flex.

Key layout is slightly non-standard, but in a way that I like.  Specifically, the left windows key has been reduced to a standard sized keycap.  It might even be a little less than standard size.  It still has that stupid polished dome feature, though.  The right Windows key is gone, and the menu key has also been reduced to standard size.  To take up the relinquished space, it appears that the four Ctrl and Alt keys have has some of their pre-Windows-keys size restored, but, mostly, the spacebar is wider.  There are no gaps on the bottom row, though, like in the pre-Windows-keys days.  I don't see any other deviations from standard keyboard layout.

The scoop of the keys seems traditional and definitely isn't flat.  Given that that was really my primary concern in ditching my old keyboard, I'm pleased with that, though I do seem to be having a little trouble relearning where my fingers go after months of keyboard torture.

I like the black-on-dark-gray aesthetic.  Gives that blank keycap feel while still allowing for hunting-and-pecking, for when my fingers forget where the keys are.  The inscriptions on the two groups of keys to the left seem to be made in that oddly distinct typeface and spacing traditional to a lot of East Asian printing of Western script, where letter width and line spacing are inconsistent.  The LED surround isn't quite as out of place as it seems in photos, but it's still definitely out of place.  (Could they not afford to make a separate run in gray?)

The LEDs are blue, and quite bright if you look directly at them, but from a normal angle, they're perfectly fine.  (I'm actually basing this solely on the NumLock LED, as I have disabled CapsLock and remapped ScrollLock to something else.)

Onto the important part: the key feel.  I have to say that I'm disappointed.  The feel is better than a membrane keyboard, but only just, to me.  In fact, it basically feels exactly like a membrane keyboard except with a more distinct feel between the keys, like each individual key is on its own set of rails.  Given that that's basically what the Topre keyswitches are, I suppose that's not terribly surprising.

What I really wanted with a keyswitch was a distinct tactile feel, and that's almost totally missing from the Topre.  It might be better than the average membrane keyboard, but I might also be being generous.  To be specific, it's not a linear feel; it definitely gives way, but the force differential is minimal.  What I want is an indication that I can stop pressing the key so that I don't need to bottom out, and I'm just not getting that feedback.

If this were a keyboard that I'd gotten from the computer vendor, I'd be quite pleased.  As a keyboard that I paid over $200 for, I'm very much not.  I suspect this keyboard will be going on sale quite soon.  I'm going to go ahead and buy something else ASAP.  It will obviously take a while to show up, so my opinion may change by the time I get a replacement, but I doubt it.

Offline wfaulk

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 10:41:00 »
I just realized that I failed to put this in the reviews forum.  If a mod wants to move it there, feel free.

Offline keyboardlover

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 10:48:32 »
Quote from: wfaulk;221221
What I want is an indication that I can stop pressing the key so that I don't need to bottom out, and I'm just not getting that feedback.


Yea you definitely won't get that with a Realforce. Personally, I prefer to bottom out (and clicky switches to me feel weird) so I think everyone is different. Sound like you definitely need a clicky switch though. Only problem with clicky switches is they are louder. Still, I would give the Realforce a few more days.

Offline ch_123

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 10:58:19 »
You need more than 5 minutes to form a proper opinion of them. There seem to be a lot of people who get them first, don't like them, and then come to like them after a few days.

One contributory issue is if you come off a heavier keyboard, your fingers will be ramming the switches and you won't feel the tactility off them. I used my HHKB after about two weeks of using a Model M and it felt exactly like a rubber dome keyboard (even though they usually feel different to me). After some time of using it, I stopped bashing the keys so hard and it felt better to type on. Muscle memory is a strange thing...

They aren't the most tactile switch in the world, but more than the Brown Cherry, and more smooth than the clicky Cherries and the Alps.

Offline wfaulk

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 11:14:23 »
Quote from: ch_123;221229
They aren't the most tactile switch in the world, but more than the Brown Cherry

Ooh.  That's useful information.

Offline wfaulk

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 11:18:16 »
Quote from: ch_123;221229
You need more than 5 minutes to form a proper opinion of them.

I did say "initial thoughts". :)

Quote from: ch_123;221229
One contributory issue is if you come off a heavier keyboard, your fingers will be ramming the switches and you won't feel the tactility off them.

Not the problem here.  I'm coming off of a rubber dome keyboard with very similar force.  Other than the … feeling of preciseness (?) … that the Topre has, I find that the feel is very similar.

Offline ch_123

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 11:20:32 »
Well, the rubber dome is going to be about 55-60g, whereas most of the keys on the Topre are 45g. That's a pretty big difference.

Offline wfaulk

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 11:35:10 »
Quote from: ch_123;221238
Well, the rubber dome is going to be about 55-60g, whereas most of the keys on the Topre are 45g. That's a pretty big difference.

Yeah, I like the lighter keys.  In fact, the lighter keys are probably the ones that seem to have the most haptic feedback.  It's still not enough for me, though.  I want the force feedback curve to be more steep.

Just to be clear, it's not that I dislike the keyboard.  It feels good, and it's clearly well made.  It's largely this keyboard at this price that bothers me.

Even at a lower price, though, it's just not quite what I was looking for.

That said, sometimes you have to get something that you don't like in order to figure out what it is that you don't like, to pull your thoughts into cohesion.  Now I can look at the force feedback graphs again and make a more educated determination.

Offline keyboardlover

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 11:41:06 »
Quote from: wfaulk;221245
Even at a lower price, though, it's just not quite what I was looking for.


I think that's the main issue here. I think that if it was truly for you (like I found it was for me) you wouldn't really complain about the price after the fact. I know I didn't (complained about it before it bought it though :D).

Offline ch_123

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #9 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 11:41:43 »
Blue Cherries may be what you are looking for, providing a decent mix of tactility and low force. As a general rule of thumb though, the less the force, the less the feedback.

(Yes, there are a load of exceptions to this, but it's relatively accurate across most current production switches)

Offline patrickgeekhack

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #10 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 13:13:30 »
I've said it somewhere that some people can be very disappointed with a Topre. I was lucky to like mine right from the get go, but that was because I have been moving to lighter and lighter switches before I got mine. The one I was using before I move to the Topre was brown Cherries. Still, there are times when I find the Topre frustrating, but that's just me.

Give the Topre some time before you form a final opinion. Once you learn to appreciate the lightness of the keys, you'll like it, I am sure.
Cherry MX Blue: Cherry G80-3000, Das Keyboard Model S Ultimate
Cherry MX Brown: Filco Majestouch, Compaq MX11800
ALPS: AEK, AEK II, Northgate Omnikey Ultra, Matias Tactile Pro 4
Topre: Realforce 103UB
Buckling Spring: IBM Model M 1390120
Previous owned: Unicomp Customizer 104, IBM Model M 1390141, ABS M1

Offline magictoaster

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #11 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 13:55:08 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;221290
I was lucky to like mine right from the get go, but that was because I have been moving to lighter and lighter switches before I got mine. The one I was using before I move to the Topre was brown Cherries.


Same thing for me. I was using the DAS with brown cherries before (and the 7G with black cherries before that), and the transition to Topre was totally painless.

Offline wfaulk

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 14:05:00 »
Quote from: patrickgeekhack;221290
Give the Topre some time before you form a final opinion. Once you learn to appreciate the lightness of the keys, you'll like it, I am sure.

Yeah, I'm not going to sell it right away, though I would like to recoup the money.

The problem is that I specifically want light keys, but I also want a much steeper force feedback graph.  Looking back at the graphs and the keyboards I've used in the past, I think that my initial guess that what I really want is an Alps keyboard was right.

I think I'm going to try the Matias Tactile Pro 3 next.  I read some stuff that, at least in their initial run, they worked with Alps Taiwan to keep their keyswitch tooling online.  I'm guessing that that's not true for the most recent model, and they're almost certainly using a clone now, but I sent them a message to confirm either way.

If I could find a simplified Alps keyboard for sale, I'd probably try that, but I can't seem to find any other Alps keyboards currently in production.

Offline keyboardlover

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 14:11:28 »
I wonder if you'd like Didjamatic's NIB Chicony with blue montereys? Link is here. Supposedly they are some of the nicest ALPS clicky switches...

Offline wfaulk

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 14:21:48 »
I don't think I really want to argue with an AT keyboard plugged into an AT-to-PS2 adapter plugged into a PS2-to-USB adapter.  Not to mention the coiled cord.  Thanks for the pointer, though.

Offline panda-R

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 14:35:19 »
You should try some Cherry Blue's... I think you will like them a lot, that is if you don't mind the LOUDNESS OF THE AWESOME!
DO YOU FEEL THE BEAT? I DO.
One Keyboard to DOOM them all, REALFORCE.

Offline TexasFlood

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 15:03:49 »
Quote from: keyboardlover;221309
I wonder if you'd like Didjamatic's NIB Chicony with blue montereys? Link is here. Supposedly they are some of the nicest ALPS clicky switches...
I have a Chicony KB-5181 although mine was used not NIB/NOS like the Didjamatic ones.  The Montereys are physically compatible with ALPS keycaps but as I understand it but they are not ALPS switches.  I'm not even sure if it's 100% known who made them outside of someone in Taiwan, perhaps SMK.  I'll defer to those more knowledgeable on that.  What I do know is that I really like mine, the switches are light, crisp and clicky.   And per Didjamatic his NOS ones are even better than the used one I have.  Not really quiet but not as loud as others I have.  I still love the sound it makes although when I'm on calls and need quiet will use my Leveno Trackpoint keyboard then since it's silent and I'm comfortable with the Thinkpad layout.
« Last Edit: Sun, 12 September 2010, 18:37:31 by TexasFlood »

Offline keyboardlover

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 15:20:36 »
Quote from: TexasFlood;221326
I have a Chicony KB-5181 although mine was used not NIB/NOS like the Didjamatic ones.  The Montereys are physically compatible with ALPS keycaps but as I understand it but they are not ALPS switches.  I'm not even sure if it's 100% known who made them outside of someone in Taiwan it seems.  I'll defer to those more knowledgeable on that.  What I do know is that I really like mine, the switches are light, crisp and clicky.   And per Didjamatic his NOS ones are even better than the used one I have.  Not really quiet but not as loud as others I have.  I still love the sound it makes although when I'm on calls and need quiet will use my Leveno Trackpoint keyboard then since it's silent and I'm comfortable with the Thinkpad layout.


Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.

Offline keyboardlover

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 09 September 2010, 22:28:08 »
Out of curiosity what is considered to be lighter? A brown cherry (@ 45g) or a Topre @ 45g?

Offline wfaulk

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 10 September 2010, 09:26:44 »
Quote from: ripster;221318
I can assure you the Fukkas in that Matias will be just as loud as a Blue Cherry.

I don't mind the loud.  I just don't want to irritate my coworkers.  But I'd like to have a good keyboard more than that.

Also, I find the "snikt" of the Alps to be less irritating than the "ping" of a Cherry, volume being equal.

Then again, who knows?  I might be looking at that old keyboard through rose-colored glasses.

Offline mrsone

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 02:37:13 »
Sounds like you may benefit from a blue cherry keyboard. Great tactility although the sound will be a lot more distinct.

I was torn between getting the multi-weighted topre and the all 55g weighted version. I think that may have made a difference, too, as you stated you like heavier switches with a little more tactile feel. I wanted a little more tactile feel than I was getting with the cherry brown switches so I opted for the 55g model (plus it was on sale) and I am very happy. The cherry brown switches were a bit too light for me, although I do like to use them every now and then (especially for gaming).
Keyboards currently in my possession:
Filco Majestouch Cherry MX Brown 104 key, Unicomp Spacesaver 104, Rosewill RK-9000RE (Cherry MX Red), Leopold 660C Mini Capacitive keyboard, HHKB Type S, Logitech Illuminated Keyboard

Keypads:
Leopold 210TP Mechanical Keypad (Cherry MX Red), Leopold FC210TP/NB Mechanical Keypad (Cherry MX Brown)

Other Keyboards I have tried:
Filco Majestouch Cherry MX Red, Leopold  FC500RR/AB Linear Touch Cherry MX Red, Razer Blackwidow Ultimate, Razer Blackwidow Ultimate Stealth Edition, Realforce 103U/UB, Realforce 103U Black All 55g, Noppoo Choc Mini 84 Mechanical Cherry MX Black keyboard, Noppoo Choc Mini 84 Mechanical Cherry MX Red keyboard (white and black color versions), PLU G3000 NKRO keyboard (white w/ Cherry MX Red switches), Dell 101AT (black Alps switches), Mattias Mini Quiet Pro (modified white Alps switches), KBT Pure Pro, (2)Happy Hacking Keyboard Professional 2, Leopold FC210TP/CB Tactile Click Cherry MX Blue Tenkey pad

Offline vyshane

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 09:14:52 »
I had been using blue cherries exclusively or a while when I decided to get a Realforce. I had a similar first impression of the Topre - "Is that it?" Like other have said, give it some time. The Topre is very subtle and it takes a while to fully appreciate it.

Offline effnish

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 20:59:22 »
I must be a bit of an outlier in I immediately fell in love with the Topre switches.  I beat myself up for a week for spending so much money on a keyboard.  I plugged it in and instantly felt justified with the purchase. After about a month of ownership, I occasionally think that there's really nothing special about the keyboard. It only takes a few seconds on a scissor switch KVM or a coworker's rubber-dome to remember why I bought it.

At home I switch between Cherry blues and a Model-M.  The feedback of the Model-M is unmatched. The blues are the perfect compromise between feedback and key-weight.  In either case, I can't subject my co-workers to the noise for 10 hrs a day. Ultimately, I like the ultra-light and quiet Topre switches.

Give the blues a whirl, you'll probably like them. If you need more feedback, break out a can of spinach ala Popeye and grab an IBM.

Offline keyboardlover

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 12 September 2010, 21:01:15 »
Quote from: effnish;222587
I must be a bit of an outlier in I immediately fell in love with the Topre switches.  I beat myself up for a week for spending so much money on a keyboard.  I plugged it in and instantly felt justified with the purchase.


My experience was nearly identical...best keyboard I've ever used. Typing on it is so addictive that I find myself missing it when I type on anything else!

Offline wfaulk

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Topre Realforce - Initial thoughts
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 13 September 2010, 10:03:47 »
Quote from: mrsone;222312
I think that may have made a difference, too, as you stated you like heavier switches with a little more tactile feel.

Nope; I want light switches with a more tactile feel.

I think the graphs of the force feedbacks of the switches are great, but I also think trying to extract information from them without some commentary is difficult.  I think I'll start a new thread on this.

I already ordered a Matias Tactile Pro 3, based on the graphs, now that I have some real-world experience in what they mean, and based on my prior experiences with (what I now believe to be) Alps switches.