Requesting opinions from linear switch users who have tried Huntsmans

[unphased]

I have not been able to physically test any of the *fancy custom* switches. For example,
- Gateron Ink
- Cherry MX Speed
- Holy Panda and related variants (these are not linear)
- Kailh Red
- Gateron Red (?)
- All the ones mentioned here: https://www.theremingoat.com/blog/gateron-oil-king-switch-review

As a software developer I am very invested in having the best possible keyboard experience, I have had in my possession a large number of keyboards over the years. My preferred boards I use now are:
- Steelseries Apex Pro TKL (linear adjustable hall sensor) (I have put some lube on some stabilizers on this) Current daily driver
- Just picked up: Razer Huntsman V2 TKL, need time to determine if it becomes my new daily driver or not
I also have:
- Realforce 87UB55 (Topre) (I don't find myself using this much even though I enjoy its tactility because the high actuation force makes it hard for me to type fast on it)
- A buckling spring Unicomp with unlabeled keys
- Varmilo VA87MR (I believe this is Cherry MX Red?)

I find that I just can't type fast on the Unicomp despite the buckling spring being satisfying. Got to press it down too far. It's also too loud for me. The Varmilo I used very heavily but I don't think I was ever truly happy with its mild scratchiness that it exhibits.

As you can see I have found out over the years that I prefer linear switches. I think that if a switch is tactile, not too hard to press, and actually really smooth I'm sure I would be into it. But I haven't been able to attend any meetups or anything to get hands on experience. I must say it is nice to be able to test keyboards at Microcenter!

My most recent purchase was the Razer. I saw many of these Razer Huntsman models there last year.  Actually, I bought a Huntsman Mini there last time, but I had to return it. I found that there was not enough customizability (I needed a method to enable enough functionality to make up for losing Esc+Fkeys and being able to type them somehow on both Windows and Linux without weird software, but even including software I just couldn't make the thing work in a usable way). However I was definitely sold on the switch feel with Huntsman Mini. It has some kind of damping on the bottomout, maybe o-rings? And the switch travel is very smooth. I found it incredibly satisfying.

So, today I was able to test the Huntsman V2 TKL which they did not have there last time (only had a Huntsman TE which was in TKL format but that thing's empty thwock bottoming was unpleasant for me). In the store, comparing those Blackwidows to the Huntsmans wasn't even close. The huntsman switches are simply smoother and have less wobble. They also do not make loud noises, which I gather is a complaint that people have about them? Compared to the Huntsman TE, and Huntsman Mini, the V2 TKL does not quite have the same damping as Mini but with its foam setup (whatever it is) it is a marked improvement compared to the TE. Looking forward to getting more hands on time with it.

The Apex Pro TKL I actually ordered from Steelseries' site on a leap of faith, and luckily it turned out that it is true that the switches are very smooth which I appreciate a lot. The bottom out is also acceptable. Although I've never felt like the variable actuation depth configurability was a factor that truly adds value, it certainly is cool to have the option. I believe it may still be the only TKL option that offers that anyway. I like its portability, but the fixed cable is a drawback when it comes to portability for traveling. I also game and can appreciate a lower latency experience but at the end of the day as long as there is not an egregiously large amount of delay, all other factors like switch feel end up simply mattering more.

I definitely feel like the main drawback of the Apex Pro is the key wobble. It's significant. I feel like this is a fundamental limitation of the regular style construction of a keyswitch. I believe that the huntsman optical switch design with built in stabilizer in each switch actually addresses this problem.
What I want to gain an understanding of is whether there exist (non exorbitantly priced) *fancy custom* switches out there that maybe have higher component tolerances or something that can also offer the low-wobble experience.

I understand that there seem to be some kind of politics or something going on in the Mech Keyboard community, where optical switches are being dismissed as a gimmick. Indeed the introduction of latency is not at the point of the switch and is certainly more about how the microcontroller implements signaling. To me, it does not matter one bit what arguments a company makes on its marketing material, I am simply looking for the best keyswitch experience. I'm impressed by Razer's recent products, and unfortunately since I'm so busy with work and life, I'm not able to have the free time that it takes to try to source and test and lube all of the switches that I want to try. So I was hoping maybe someone who has experience in this realm could provide some qualitative assessments. It is my understanding that offering a stab on each switch allows the huntsman optical switches to offer a degree of wobble that no MX style switch could achieve. What I hope to find out here is whether this is true or not, and I'm hoping to get qualitative opinions from folks who have experience from them.

I will keep an eye out for meetups and such so I can test and satisfy my curiosity once and for all. But in the meantime I am very ok with being able to get keyboards today that are pretty fantastic out of the box. Yeah I did have to lube the Apex Pro to reduce stabilizer squeaks. Hopefully this new Razer unit will not have such problems.

[MIGHTY CHICKEN]

Here is my view on the whole optical vs mechanical switch. While opticals are not bad by any means, they’re quite decent in terms of wobble and smoothness compared to other switches. They are dismissed by the custom community as they lack any compatibility with other aspects of the hobby.

This would mainly include being able to use them on any board as well as the limited ability of the hobby to make such optical pcbs. Hence why the hobby leans towards easier to design mechanical switches. If you wanted optical with some compatibility, gateron has a somewhat ok sized lineup of various optical switches which are compatible with some hotswap prebuilts, namely the sk61/64 line which the internals can be transplanted into universal 60% cases. I believe there was one point in which someone tried to run a group buy for higher end optical switches, optical inks. Although this did not go through afaik due to limited use case.

If you do not mind the other short comings of a razer board, then by all means go for it. If smoothness and wobble is the only thing of concern, it might be the move.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[unphased]

I forgot to mention, I did buy a Razer PBT keycap set to replace the ABS caps that came with the Apex Pro. That was a very worthwhile upgrade. The design of the lettering is perfectly fine, and the price point is completely unmatchable.

First impressions of the Huntsman V2 TKL are very good. The sound on regular keys is far superior to that of the Apex. There is some pretty annoying rattle with the backspace and shifts but the enter and spacebar are not bad at all. There is actually some wobble on the keys but the movement is indeed very smooth and there is no wobble during the downstroke, if you will. I think the (i believe it is) 45g weight will require me to get used to it but i think I can type on this one very well.

[unphased]

Here is my view on the whole optical vs mechanical switch. While opticals are not bad by any means, they’re quite decent in terms of wobble and smoothness compared to other switches. They are dismissed by the custom community as they lack any compatibility with other aspects of the hobby.

This would mainly include being able to use them on any board as well as the limited ability of the hobby to make such optical pcbs. Hence why the hobby leans towards easier to design mechanical switches. If you wanted optical with some compatibility, gateron has a somewhat ok sized lineup of various optical switches which are compatible with some hotswap prebuilts, namely the sk61/64 line which the internals can be transplanted into universal 60% cases. I believe there was one point in which someone tried to run a group buy for higher end optical switches, optical inks. Although this did not go through afaik due to limited use case.

I see, thanks for the background. This is quite helpful. I have been quite out of the loop on this stuff. I am definitely a pretty hardcore keyboard enthusiast and don't mind expanding my collection beyond just the one big plastic container on my shelf.

I think I will be very happy with this Huntsman if I can do something about the sound coming out of the backspace key!

[unphased]

Figure I can at least contribute my findings from opening it up. I'll attach more pics detailing a few additional things to be aware of for the teardown. It's very simple, all screws except one are on the top and only 15 or so keycaps need removing to do it.



I was very surprised at how incredibly thin the foam layer is. I'll measure it more closely but it is either 0.5mm or 1mm thick. If it was more reasonable looking I would leave it alone but I think since i have plenty of foam at home I'll make the holes and replace this with a much thicker piece or multiple pieces of foam. If this thin-ass foam makes such a difference for sound then adding 4x more foam probably would also yield an additional improvement.

I opened it up because I got concerned after I lubed the right shift stabilizer with some particularly viscous stuff and noticed it was getting close to sticking on the bottom, so I wanted to open it to make sure I didnt damage anything. Luckily it is very easy to take apart. I'll describe it better once I take more detailed pictures. The underside of these wide key stabs contact these little tiny pieces of rubber that appear to be glued into the bottom case. Seems to be a pretty sound design. I think I can address the rattling of these stabs with high precision application of tiny amounts of lube where they contact the plastic at the places that they hinge.

[Maledicted]

Chyros has a bunch of videos on hall effect and optical linears. Being a connoisseur of vintage mechanisms, he's more inclined to trying things actually novel than most. It doesn't look like he has any playlists on it, but he does have videos on most of the major players.

As you can see I have found out over the years that I prefer linear switches. I think that if a switch is tactile, not too hard to press, and actually really smooth I'm sure I would be into it.

The only modern tactile I have liked is Matias' dampened tactiles. I imagine you won't like their stabilizers though.

There are also some clickies dampened right from the factory now (you could always swap dampened sliders into undampened Matias clickies). I haven't looked into them since I'm perfectly happy with undampened box clickies myself.

[ander]

The Apex Pro TKL I actually ordered from Steelseries' site on a leap of faith, and luckily it turned out that it is true that the switches are very smooth... I definitely feel like the main drawback of the Apex Pro is the key wobble. It's significant. I feel like this is a fundamental limitation of the regular style construction of a keyswitch. I believe that the huntsman optical switch design with built in stabilizer in each switch actually addresses this problem.

Dude: As you may have discovered, you're not likely to get much of an enthusiastic response from the peeps here re "retail" boards like Razers, which most keeb-heads consider too mainstream. I'm not saying it's fair or not; it's apparently more an esthetic thing.

That said, switch feel and response, and board sound, are entirely subjective.

For example, you mentioned you found buckling springs limiting—but the only reason I type on anything else is so I can return to them and appreciate them even more.

I recently picked up an Apex Pro, too (gotta have at least one of everything, right?) and they're the least-wobbly switches I've ever typed on. These are, after all, Hall Effect, requiring no physical switch mechanism other than a plunger and a spring. (Have you seen Chyros's review? He considers them as smooth as even his smoothest vintage "contactless" boards. (That said, I don't know why anyone still makes switches without boxes around the stems... But that's just the caps, not the switches themselves—or is that what you mean?)

So while it's lots of fun discussing these things from our unique viewpoints—as you can see, we can do that day and night here—you must ultimately type on a board to know how you like it.