frustrated: a good pc is still pricey to get

[wellington1869]

I'll sell you my U35JC, which has a 60 GB Sandforce SSD for $790.

not a tablet

anyway why wouldnt you pull the ssd and use it in something else? they're pricey.

[kill will]

Have you ever looked into Motion Computing?

[wellington1869]

Have you ever looked into Motion Computing?

ya I used to own one. Beautiful slates. I'd get one again if I could afford it. The one I had wasnt powerful enough (this was when slates had just come out) and the screen blew on it, and it ran way too hot, but in terms of industrial design, just gorgeous.

New ones today are over 2 grand; useable used ones around $700-$800.  They're also not terribly light (3.5 lbs; carry a keyb and ac adapter and you're over 4.5 lbs, which I already have).

There's also the electrovaya scribbler -- gorgeous, useable, and almost 3 grand.

I have a feeling it will be a while before the 3.5 lb barrier is broken for 'real' laptops though. Even slates. I just found out the EP121 is probably going to be in that range, even in slate mode.  If you want sub-2lbs looks like its only achievable with 'appliances' like ipad/android-pads.

THis is also why I initially got excited with the HP Slate 500. 2lbs, full win7, on a slate.  If used price for it drops under $500 by end of next year I might pick one up. I just read in a review tho that its handwriting recognition sucks. :cry: Mainly cuz of the atom processor and 1gb max memory. I also read something about not being able to run onenote on it, which makes no sense to me (i also dont get how they could prevent one particular office app from working). Have to look into that more. Would be useless to me without onenote. ANyway, yea, atom processors mostly blow.

[WhiteRice]

not a tablet

anyway why wouldnt you pull the ssd and use it in something else? they're pricey.

It was reflected in the price

buy my laptop o.o

[zefrer]

Get a netbook with an SSD and something like 2GB of ram. The "responsiveness" you mention is due to the SSD, not the CPU. With what you're doing with it you'd actually be ok with a dual core Atom in a good netbook with an ssd. Would certainly be more responsive than an i5 and a regular mechanical drive.

Your usage is not excessive, you don't actually need a high end CPU.

[keyboardlover]

Get a netbook with an SSD and something like 2GB of ram. The "responsiveness" you mention is due to the SSD, not the CPU. With what you're doing with it you'd actually be ok with a dual core Atom in a good netbook with an ssd. Would certainly be more responsive than an i5 and a regular mechanical drive.

Your usage is not excessive, you don't actually need a high end CPU.

+1 for SSD. In addition to the other things I mentioned, an SSD makes a HUGE difference.

[microsoft windows]

If an SSD makes that much of a difference, then why not just swap out the hard disk with one instead of buying a whole new computer?

[WhiteRice]

While SSD read/write speed is great and all, there are still limitations to older chip set architecture.

[HaaTa]

Woah, RDRAM, now that's an abomination I haven't heard in a while. Don't get me wrong, it was fast when it came out, but there's that little thing called cost/patent trolls that comes to mind...

[D-EJ915]

That **** ran hot as hell too.  That whole generation of Intel was a complete waste of time and money lol.

[Lanx]

isn't rdram or rimm in nvidia cards now and nvidia is forced to pay patents?

[chimera15]

tm2t is the machine you want imo

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do;HHOJSID=hkKmMHPYTbVwSVv9JRtn2nfJk9j8yT18lYWJp6pvGlCvPt10vbsd!1842609543?storeName=computer_store&category=notebooks&a1=Processor&v1=Intel&series_name=tm2t_series&jumpid=in_R329_prodexp/hhoslp/psg/notebooks/Intel/tm2t_series

You could probably get reconned or used ones on ebay for $600-700

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-TM2T-SU7300-1-3GHZ-4GB-DDR3-12-1-MULTI-TOUCH-TABLET-/220685230276?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item3361dd60c4

That's the low voltage c2d version, but they have i5 versions as well, but as others say, those are perfectly capable of multitasking even the most demanding apps.

That's like the 4th or 5th generation of this format.  You can probably get a tx2500z like mine that works really well for less than $4-500, now and will be perfectly capable and snappy, especially if you use the money you save to retrofit it with an ssd and win7.  The tx2500z processor is running about even with the i5's and c2d low voltages according to geekbench.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-Pavilion-TX2500-2-1GHz-Dual-Core-4GB-RAM-320GB-HD-/170556711007?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item27b5f8e05f

$460 used.

This is one of the only multitouch systems I believe that uses a dedicated non intel graphics card.  Certainly the most affordable. You really have to watch that you don't get crap intel graphics cards with tablet/touch laptops.  Those will kill a system's productivity and usefulness.

[chimera15]

That **** ran hot as hell too.  That whole generation of Intel was a complete waste of time and money lol.

There were a lot of generations within the p4 line, including later socket 775 p4's.  Not all of them were completely sucky.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Intel-SL7LA-Pentium-4-P4-3-2GHz-3-20GHz-1M-800-775-CPU-/360312407379?pt=CPUs&hash=item53e44b0553

Most of the 478's were hot cause they had relatively crappy heat spreaders and heat sinks.  Not to mention most of them were crammed into cases built for p3's with little or no active cooling.

[ch_123]

Woah, RDRAM, now that's an abomination I haven't heard in a while. Don't get me wrong, it was fast when it came out, but there's that little thing called cost/patent trolls that comes to mind...

Not all that fast. The first round of DDR1 was quicker than RDRAM running at something like four times its clock rate due to latency issues.

There were a lot of generations within the p4 line, including later socket 775 p4's. Not all of them were completely sucky.

Nonsense. The Pentium 4 was inefficient by design. Remember the gigahertz wars?

[chimera15]

Not all that fast. The first round of DDR1 was quicker than RDRAM running at something like four times its clock rate due to latency issues.



Nonsense. The Pentium 4 was inefficient by design. Remember the gigahertz wars?

Inefficient relative to what? Amd's? or P3's?

[ch_123]

Just about any other chip on the market at the time, x86 or otherwise.

Recall that the P4 was over-pipelined almost entirely for the marketing benefits of having a chip with a high clock rate.

[chimera15]

Just about any other chip on the market at the time, x86 or otherwise.

Recall that the P4 was over-pipelined almost entirely for the marketing benefits of having a chip with a high clock rate.

I don't really recall it that way. P3's were going up over 1.5 before they switched to renaming them p4's really. P3's are really just p4's with a new name.  Almost everyone knew the clock speed wasn't the important boost over p3's it was the fsb.  I ran multiple p4's for like 5 or more years. I never bought into the later lines that seemed to fit that profile more.  There were 2 or 3 different series of p4 chips, at least.  Plus the 775 chips which are extremely stable. I built a system around one for her about a year ago and it's been running continuously at low temps for a year now.


Alright, there were Willamette, from 1.3 to 2.0
Northwoods, and Prescott's.

The Prescott's were the ones that I saw a lot of burnt out chips in the 478 sockets.

I ran a Northwood 2.4 ghz for at least 3 years continuously, and had almost no problems with it.

The current one the system I built for my mother is a Prescott 775 chip that's running really well.

According to wikipedia there's also the cedar mill which is a much lower heat version of the p4, due to a die shrinkage.

[ch_123]

I don't really recall it that way. P3's were going up over 1.5 before they switched to renaming them p4's really.

Wrong.

With the Pentium M, and the later Core chips, they ditched Netburst and went back to the P6 architecture of the Pentium 3. The Pentium 4 was widely considered a failure, and caused Intel to lose a lot of money and business to AMD.

P3's are really just p4's with a new name.

Did they like, go back in time?

Plus the 775 chips which are extremely stable. I built a system around one for her about a year ago and it's been running continuously at low temps for a year now.

How low is low?

[chimera15]

Wrong.

With the Pentium M, and the later Core chips, they ditched Netburst and went back to the P6 architecture of the Pentium 3. The Pentium 4 was widely considered a failure, and caused Intel to lose a lot of money and business to AMD.



Did they like, go back in time?



How low is low?

I'll have to run realtemp on it.  When I built it and tested it I was pretty happy with it though.  I haven't looked at it really for a year now.  I was able to add a nice zalman to it since it's in a  c2d motherboard.

Oh yeah you're right I was thinking of the Pentium M that I also have a lot of units with.

I wouldn't say it was a failure though, I suppose maybe from a design standpoint.

[ch_123]

A relative of mine who has a 775 3.6GHz Prescott needed a replacement fan, and I gave him a Zalman fan that used to keep my old S939 Athlon 64 running at about 30-40 under load. On the Prescott, it's on full blast all the time and only manages to keep it at about 50-60. Oh, and the Athlon performed better.

[chimera15]

A relative of mine who has a 775 3.6GHz Prescott needed a replacement fan, and I gave him a Zalman fan that used to keep my old S939 Athlon 64 running at about 30-40 under load. On the Prescott, it's on full blast all the time and only manages to keep it at about 50-60. Oh, and the Athlon performed better.

That's a pretty crazy ghz for a p4.  Even a 775.  I always tried to stick around 2.4.  That seemed to be a reasonable operating ghz.  Anything after that seemed like not only overkill for most apps, but also was really pushing the operating envelope of the technology.

[ch_123]

Obvious Intel fanboi is obvious.

[chimera15]

yeah so?

[ch_123]

It pretty much automatically destroys your credibility.

[zefrer]

Netburst architecture failed spectacularly because of power/heat issues, that is no secret.

If only Intel hadn't paid off Dell and others in order for them _not_ to use AMD's cpus at the time, instead of, you know, spending that money in R&D in order to make a product that is actually competitive.

Get your facts straight first.

[zefrer]

Who's complaining? Just stating facts.. And yeah, if a company bribes another company so they don't use their competitors' products a fine is the least they should expect.

All I hear is this annoying whining noise, wonder where that's coming from

[wellington1869]

This thread started with a whine.

The OP is good at it.

Damn straight.


Incidentally, this is the cheapest I've ever seen SSD drives:
$94 for 64gb ssd:
http://www.buy.com/prod/kingston-64gb-ssdnow-v-series-sata-ii-2-5-internal-solid-state-drive/q/loc/101/214308842.html

[wellington1869]

It pretty much automatically destroys your credibility.

to be fair, AMD isnt doing its job

[ch_123]

Debatable. But this was a discussion about the failure of the Pentium 4, and not of AMD. AMD was doing quite well back then.

Either way, it's not as if it's some sort of binary operation whereby you are either an AMD fanboy or an Intel fanboy. You don't have to be a fanboy of either (quite a desirable property really)

[zefrer]

Welly, I recently got one of these . ~$65 for 32GB of a very good brand is not bad at all.

Size/cost is worse than the kingston but the SSD is better.

[NamelessPFG]

It's definitely pricey if you want:

-a Crysis-grade gaming computer
-a Tablet PC with a proper EMR/active pen digitizer (if buying new)
--the above, but with an IPS or AFFS+ LCD instead of cheap TN crap

I can get by with what I've got now, but ever since I installed Win7 64-bit on my Gateway E-295C/C-140XL, ATI's drivers for the Mobility Radeon HD 2300 (read: DX9, moved to a half-assed "legacy" driver structure, which is made even worse by it being a notebook GPU) have been royally pissing me off. Certain games will suddenly minimize the instant I launch them and keep on doing that when I try to bring them back into focus, and even worse, it's random as to when it starts and stops. The non-native resolution scaling setting will not stick (unless it's "Do not resize", or 1:1 pixel mapping). Older driver versions bring OpenGL black flickering and BSoDs, and even legacy Catalyst 10.2 has BSoDs if the GPU is set to anything less than Maximum Performance.

All of that, and I'm stuck with it because there isn't an MXM slot to replace the HD 2300 with. The end result? That 2.5 GHz Core 2 Duo T9300 is utterly bottlenecked.

I'm tempted to move to the HP tm2 in the hopes that HD 4550/5450 drivers don't suck nearly as much, but the ATI/Intel switchable graphics system could complicate things. Also, I'd lose out massively on CPU performance, going down to about a 1.33 GHz Core i5 ULV. (At least it'll be much lighter and have much longer battery life; the E-295C gets about 2:00 to 2:30 on the 8-cell I got with it and weighs somewhere around 6.5 to 7.2 lbs.)

Or maybe I'll just get the Kno (single-screen model) and a conventional notebook for my mobile needs, but that means no Photoshop and such, as well as the likely inability to carry over my OneNote notebooks.

(As much as I want to just Remote Desktop into my flagship desktop at home, the technology isn't there yet. Too much latency and no support for programs that use 3D.)

[itlnstln]

I just swap the hard drive out of my work computer.  It's good enough for what I want to do.  I have a work-issued HDD and my "home" HDD, and I swap them out as needed.  In reality, I just use my "home" setup all the time, and use the work HDD when the IT Gestapo come rolling through.

[wellington1869]

Welly, I recently got one of these . ~$65 for 32GB of a very good brand is not bad at all.

Size/cost is worse than the kingston but the SSD is better.

thanks for the link bro

[wellington1869]

how much difference does bus speed make? for instance: a bump from 533 to 667 (or whatever it is) is it worth $100?

[wellington1869]

It's definitely pricey if you want:

Or maybe I'll just get the Kno (single-screen model) and a conventional notebook for my mobile needs, but that means no Photoshop and such, as well as the likely inability to carry over my OneNote notebooks.

never heard of The Kno - fascinating! I dont see a buy link on the site - is it still vaporware?

[microsoft windows]

That's a pretty crazy ghz for a p4.  Even a 775.  I always tried to stick around 2.4.  That seemed to be a reasonable operating ghz.  Anything after that seemed like not only overkill for most apps, but also was really pushing the operating envelope of the technology.

One of my machine's got a 3.2 Ghz Socket 478 P4 in it. I've personally found it to work pretty good.

[wellington1869]

i wouldnt take it to the library, but would love to hang it on a wall at home!

asus is coming out with an eeepad which is similarly gigantic. Its basically like a 19" lcd monitor with a touchscreen that you use in your lap.

[chimera15]

One of my machine's got a 3.2 Ghz Socket 478 P4 in it. I've personally found it to work pretty good.

Yup, my mother's machine is a 3.2 p4 775.  It has low 40's operating temps.  Hasn't had any problems in over a year now since I built it.

I have seen a lot of 478 prescotts that were dead though over my years of repairing and refurbing broken computers though.  Also those motherboards were routinely blown for different reasons.  Not very robust I think.  Lot of dells with the crappy ass case design, minimal hs/fan, and proprietary motherboards.

What are your operating temps on your 3.2 478?  What kind of heatsink/case do you have for it?

I think the major contribution of the p4 generation is an increase in case/heat sink design. lol  Later generations have really benefited from it.

[ch_123]

how much difference does bus speed make? for instance: a bump from 533 to 667 (or whatever it is) is it worth $100?

Not likely to be a noticeable one for 99% of usage scenarios. It's one of those things were there's such levels of smoke and mirrors involved over and above the relevant theory that it's hard to say one way or another what the optimal speed for the memory bus is.

[microsoft windows]

Yup, my mother's machine is a 3.2 p4 775.  It has low 40's operating temps.  Hasn't had any problems in over a year now since I built it.

I have seen a lot of 478 prescotts that were dead though over my years of repairing and refurbing broken computers though.  Also those motherboards were routinely blown for different reasons.  Not very robust I think.  Lot of dells with the crappy ass case design, minimal hs/fan, and proprietary motherboards.

What are your operating temps on your 3.2 478?  What kind of heatsink/case do you have for it?

I think the major contribution of the p4 generation is an increase in case/heat sink design. lol  Later generations have really benefited from it.

To tell you the truth, I've never really been into custom-building my systems. I found the P4 and decided to stuff it in an old Dell Optiplex GX270 tower (This one has a refurbished motherboard so the capacitors shouldn't die) and it's worked great ever since. It doesn't get too hot with the standard heatsink than came with the computer, and the 160W PSU can handle it (I was a little surprised at that at first, but I don't really have a high-end video card in there either).

[unicomp]

I don't really have a high-end video card in there either).

I've got a Voodoo; faeces is so cash.

[patrickgeekhack]

bro, i take that as a given.

Haha. The first thing I usually ask is: "What is your return policy?"

[keyboardlover]

I've got a Voodoo; faeces is so cash.

The power of the voodoo, who do? You do!

Bonus points if you get that reference...

[NamelessPFG]

never heard of The Kno - fascinating! I dont see a buy link on the site - is it still vaporware?

They may still be ironing out some of the quirks, but at least they've shown videos of actual hardware prototypes in action, on stage. (More than I can say for the Microsoft Courier, as badly as I wanted that.) There were some responsiveness issues with the OS at certain times, and they stated that they hadn't finished optimizing it yet. (This was a few weeks to a month ago.)

If they take their time to polish it up, that's fine by me, because first impressions will be everything in this suddenly cut-throat tablet market. I want the Kno to succeed precisely because it's an EMR/active pen digitizer tablet computer that has the balls to NOT run IBM PC-compatible hardware and Windows like every other tablet (convertible or slate) with an active digitizer just far. This allows them to borrow from the advantages of the "smartphone OS on tablet" approach, but correcting the usual oversight of pen input (and, for all I know, other input methods such as voice recognition) on those iOS/Android slates.

(Also, I wasn't that interested at first because the first model was the dual 14" booklet version, which at 5.5 lbs. would probably be far too bulky for my tastes. The single 14" slate model at half the size and weight, on the other hand...I could work with that, though it obviously won't fly with people who think that roughly 10" tablets are already way too big and heavy at 1.5 lbs.)

[wellington1869]

i hear ya on the courier, i was among those salivating, and really put out when they cancelled it!

problem with going with non-MS on the tablet: where will handwriting recognition come from? Onenote and the MS TIP has the market cornered on that, and truth be told, it works better than any alternate system out there.  Its one thing to have an active digitizer for sketching or freehand notes, but its usefulness triples if you have handwriting recognition and transcription.

Plus, for students who are married to MS Word (and Onenote for class notes), having the MS OS option is a great boon.

I agree that 2.5 lbs is good, 5.5 way overkill... 1.5 would be even better of course.

I really like the Slate form factor, or at least being able to completely detach the screen when needed (as on the EP121, which got the design perfectly).

[Hak Foo]

A relative of mine who has a 775 3.6GHz Prescott needed a replacement fan, and I gave him a Zalman fan that used to keep my old S939 Athlon 64 running at about 30-40 under load. On the Prescott, it's on full blast all the time and only manages to keep it at about 50-60. Oh, and the Athlon performed better.

The nastiest performer I have is a 775 Pentium D 920 - 2.8GHz.  I threw a Zalman 9700 on it because the provided cooler was very loud, but still, for the heat level, you'd expect better performance.

I bought the machine for $20 used, sans hard disc, because the video card had literally melted the fan in place (a 7300GS I think).  It was a nasty Sony box, MicroATX with a 92mm exhaust, but it did come with a fully-working WinXP restore disc; if I ever need an XP box bigger than the old netbook, I can reconstitute it with a $30 SATA hard disc.

I just wish you could throw a Core 2 on it; but it's an Intel-brand mobo, and neither Intel nor SOny want to talk about forwards-compatibility.  Damn 945 chipset.

[zefrer]

There's also the 'small' issue that an MS OS on a tablet form factor doesn't really work. The interface is not meant for the form factor. Don't know if they plan to use the new win7 phone OS (which is far from complete atm).

[wellington1869]

There's also the 'small' issue that an MS OS on a tablet form factor doesn't really work. The interface is not meant for the form factor. Don't know if they plan to use the new win7 phone OS (which is far from complete atm).

well for people in my line of work, we need it to run MS office (almost all of office components).  Mobile windows isnt there yet. It would have to be a full normal windows install.  True, windows wasnt made for a touch interface (and MS is scrambling to add it now) but so long as the stylus emulates a mouse (as it does on an active digitizer), it works well enough to function...

[keyboardlover]

IMO, good PCs will always be pricey to get. If you want the best, you'll always have to pay for it.

[wellington1869]

IMO, good PCs will always be pricey to get. If you want the best, you'll always have to pay for it.

whats frustrating is, the low end pc's have dropped so radically in price. It gives the false illusion that pc's in general have dropped in price. But thts not true at all I think. I think a good pc is the same price as it ever was.