Can someone explain why tenkeyless are so popular here?

[adamgoldberg]

I don't mean to be factious -- why do you folks seem to like tenkeyless keyboards?  I find myself using the numeric keypad several times/day and would be rather lost entering numbers without it...

[kill will]

Because it brings your mouse like 6" to the left and your body is better centered for important things like web browsing.  This can mean ease of tension in your right shoulder and arm.  Entering numbers with the top row isn't that hard.

[Lanx]

i couldn't understand the fascination with 10keyless either for a while since i used to use the numpad so much. Then i started to examine my movements and noticed how much my arms have to travel to hit the mouse and this motion was far more than the use of entering in a few numbers on the numpad.
The travel distance is just shorter, that's really it. For almost all folks, once you go a certain way, you'll never go back.
Once you go ergonomic, you won't go back to regular 104.
once you go 10keyless, you can't stand to have that useless numpad around.
and once you go mech, mushy domes make you cry!

unless your an accountant i'd re examine the numpad purpose. (this coming from someone who was trained on number entry from numpad)

[danrew]

There are certainly ergonomic advantages but coolness factor will always dominate all common sense.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

It's more ergonomic if you're a righty because it gets the mouse closer to the rest of the keyboard. Less movement.

Anyhow, I use full key keyboards with a mouse platform instead (PDF WARNING). My desk/kb tray design does not permit using it as depicted, so I just flipped the clamp and it's about an inch above the numpad.. Works like a charm.

[jpc]

The numpad takes up space where you might want your pointing device to be, especially if you are a righty.

I'd be happy to have a numpad, just not right there.

[jpc]

(real answer)
Small keyboards are more G. I. Joe

If you need 104 plus umpteen media keys, you are compensating

[WhiteRice]

If you learn to touch type the number row it's not really necessary. 1407, 1593, 1776, 2005...

Unless you spend hours entering numbers, learning to touch type the number row will save you time.

[Lanx]

Unless you spend hours entering numbers, learning to touch type the number row will save you time.

no way, touch typing the numrow can never compete with a numpad in terms of speed. This could be my bias but i can never see my numrow speed even come close to what i could do with a numpad.

[Soarer]

I'd wager that tenkeyless seems more popular than it actually is.

[WhiteRice]

It's just a matter of learning the row.

That is like saying if you arranged your qwerty cluster in a tenkey shape you could type faster.

10 Fingers > 3 Fingers

[wellington1869]

people just like saying 'tenkeyless'. it sounds kind of mysterious.

[danrew]

Well, it's more like 8 fingers > 3 fingers
Unless you got some mad joints or are polydactyl.

[Lanx]

well if we really want to be picky
numpad=3 strong fingers+thumb for 0 (or 00)
touchtyping homerow= 8 fingers with both index doing 5,6,7,8 and weak pinkies for 1,0

[jpc]

I'd wager that tenkeyless seems more popular than it actually is.

Poll.

[Johannes]

Comfort and efficiency. With a fullsize, I always found myself:

a) using the board awkwardly (non-centered)
b) using the mouse awkwardly (stretched arm/shoulder)
c) leaning over to use the mouse

For a while I tried to go leftie, for a while I tried to go keyboard-only, then I found tenkeyless and basically never looked back. I don't need a numpad, it's convenient for rare uses (entering numbers with one hand while the other is free) but its position on fullsize boards is far too obnoxious to be worth it.

[adamgoldberg]

Wow, maybe I touched a nerve

Ok, I guess I can see how if you never spent time entering numbers it could save time or needless hassle moving across the numpad to the mouse....

but I don't understand the ergonomic discussion (centered, stretched shoulder, leaning over).  

Maybe I'm weird, but I don't spend "all day" entering numbers, but...

Anyone want to loan me a tenkeyless kb (I'll pay shipping both ways ??

[Azuremen]

well if we really want to be picky
numpad=3 strong fingers+thumb for 0 (or 00)
touchtyping homerow= 8 fingers with both index doing 5,6,7,8 and weak pinkies for 1,0

The deal is you don't have to move your hands from the alpha area of the keyboard to type numbers when you use the top row. Where as you are constantly moving over to the numpad to type numbers with that method.

[Lanx]

this is GH ppl should be able to see the ascii!
regular setup
[====]   keyboard
{}    numpad
o~   mouse
\--|--/   person typing

normal 104 key and mouse setup

[====]{} o~
 \--|--/

now person is gonna use mouse

[====]{} o~
 \--|------/

omg look at how stretched out his arm is!
now he goes back to normal typing

[====]{} o~
 \--|--/

tenkeyless

[====]o~
 \--|--/

person typing like regular

[====]o~
 \--|--/

now he gotta use mouse

[====]o~
 \--|---/

now back to regular

[====]o~
 \--|--/


hope that helps!

[Soarer]

Poll.

Should've been...
.. tenkeyless
.. other
to answer the OP's question, IMHO :-)

Tenkeyless being a specific layout, not just the lack of numpad.
Compacts (Orteks etc) can have the same set of keys as a tenkeyless, but they're not called tenkeyless.

[iMav]

There are certainly ergonomic advantages but coolness factor will always dominate all common sense.

I never had a problem with numpads until I moved to a GUI and started using a mouse.  As others have mentioned here, having your pointing device so far away from the home row is a PITA.  In fact, my search for tenkeyless keyboards (and frustration over a good online forum to discuss such things) is one of the main reasons geekhack exists.

I couldn't care less if people think my keyboard is "cool".  I want something that is comfortable and enjoyable.

[wellington1869]

Wow, maybe I touched a nerve

you can mention the weather and touch a nerve around here.
Watch....   "weather"

[wellington1869]

I couldn't care less if people think my keyboard is "cool".  I want something that is comfortable and enjoyable.

i used to think that, until i got my piano black das. Now i'm just glad it looks cool.

[itlnstln]

I'm the oddball here. I bought a RF numpad to go with my HHKB.  I also work in retail and type long strings of numbers.  I'm pretty proficient with the number row, but the numpad is killer when entering many UPC codes at a time.

[wellington1869]

but the numpad is killer when entering many UPC codes at a time.

i think you're supposed to hire immigrants for that

[clickclack]

Anyone want to loan me a tenkeyless kb (I'll pay shipping both ways ??

many lawls!
I seeee watcha did thar =)

this is GH ppl should be able to see the ascii!...
regular setup...
...hope that helps!

That was hilarious!

I really like tenkeyless boards especially the HHKB because my work area is very crowded and I AM left handed! Although I must admit if not for the above or working on a laptop I wouldn't care as much because full 104's work pretty good for lefties.
Well... k, maybe a little cool factor =P

I like to use my Cintiq in a dual monitor setup and the smaller keyboard fits nicely just to the right. It.s not off center to how I sit because my setup fits a workspace arc. In addition to that if my board is smaller then I can easily keep it right next to my Cintiq and swing my right hand to it and back for custom functions.

I rarily use the numpad on a keyboard, but when I do I actually like it to have different switches than what I use to type. For numbers I like to use a more clicky switch, which makes the addition of a small numpad ideal (tax time). I especially like one with backspace and arrows like the scorpius one (the only time I will recomend a scorpius mechanical model... ONLY!).

[laden3]

this is GH ppl should be able to see the ascii!
regular setup
[====]   keyboard
{}    numpad
o~   mouse
\--|--/   person typing

normal 104 key and mouse setup

[====]{} o~
 \--|--/

now person is gonna use mouse

[====]{} o~
 \--|------/

omg look at how stretched out his arm is!
now he goes back to normal typing

[====]{} o~
 \--|--/

tenkeyless

[====]o~
 \--|--/

person typing like regular

[====]o~
 \--|--/

now he gotta use mouse

[====]o~
 \--|---/

now back to regular

[====]o~
 \--|--/


hope that helps!

Am I the only one who thinks that this is cute and awesome?

[adamgoldberg]

Am I the only one who thinks that this is cute and awesome?

No!

[cbf123]

Tenkeyless being a specific layout, not just the lack of numpad.
Compacts (Orteks etc) can have the same set of keys as a tenkeyless, but they're not called tenkeyless.

I think the poll should have been "I have a numpad between my home row and mouse...." since that's the main issue ergonomics-wise.  That would allow for odd layouts like the Maltron that has a tenkeypad in the middle of the keyboard.

And how do you deal with something like the Kinesis Advantage where the right hand keys become a numberpad when you hit a switch?

[clickclack]

Am I the only one who thinks that this is cute and awesome?

I gave props =)

[CodeChef]

you can mention the weather and touch a nerve around here.
Watch....   "weather"

GO DIE IN A FIRE YOU *******!

Am I the only one who thinks calling a man's post "cute" is awkward?

Anyways, the main reason I haven't bought a mechanical keyboard yet is because I'm wrestling with the fact that tenkeyless are so much more awesome but tenkeyful are so much cheaper

[laden3]

Lanx is probably a girl, look at "her" hand


I was talking abt the little arms \ /

[Soarer]

I think the poll should have been "I have a numpad between my home row and mouse...." since that's the main issue ergonomics-wise.  That would allow for odd layouts like the Maltron that has a tenkeypad in the middle of the keyboard.

But that would put the Model F in the numpad category, when it's only 1 key wider (on the rhs) than tenkeyless.

[Daniel Beaver]

I will continue to kick this dead horse.

I use a tenkeyless. I love it. I think the ergonomic benefits outweigh the lack of a numpad. Your millage may vary.

It is possible to enter numbers quickly on the num row; I did data entry on a laptop for about a year and a half, and so can touch type that row. I imagine that if you aren't used to doing that, switching over to exclusive num row usage would seem onerous. It may be initially, but in the long run you haven't lost much.

I personally recommend the Model F route: have your cake and eat it too. It's too bad so few keyboards use that layout.

[msiegel]

hope that helps!

brilliant

[old spice man] "Hello, ladies. Look at your keyboard, now back to mine, now back at your keyboard, now back to mine. Sadly, your keyboard isn't mine..."

also, +1 for tenkeyless :deadhorse:

[JinDesu]

More dead horse kicking here: The lan centers near me like to put up boards between workstations to prevent screen-looking, and it makes the workspace much smaller than what I'm used to. A full keyboard becomes a disadvantage at these places.

And I can only afford one keyboard, so I have to use the tenkeyless for everything else =p

[Soarer]

I personally recommend the Model F route: have your cake and eat it too. It's too bad so few keyboards use that layout.

Indeed :-)

There's a serious lack of choice when it comes to layouts on mechanical keyboards that are available new these days. It's not surprising that many view it as a choice between tenkeyless and full-size, and that's it. Anything else requires a bit more dedication - being harder to find, maybe more expensive, not working on USB without a converter etc.

Anyway, it was my dissatisfaction with that lack of choice that led me to GH... the rest is a continually evolving history :-D

[RoboKrikit]

If you want the mouse-related ergonomic benefits of a tenkeyless, but the numpad benefit of tenkeyful, get a tenkeyless and put a numpad on the left side of your keyboard.

I use a pointing device on both sides so this doesn't really work for me.  I just use the number row.  Really you could put the numpad anywhere in your reach if you aren't reaching for it more often than your mouse.

[codek]

it's sexier

[sairex]

I never noticed until work made me go through an ergonomics class due to pains in my arms and shoulders.  Ever since then, I can't use a full-sized keyboard without noticing the strain on my right arm.

[Mr. Perfect]

Just for perspective, I measured the numpad on my keyboard from the left most edge of the Numlock key to the right most edge of the Minus key. It's a nice round three inches. :third: Woo.

I don't really use the numpad, so have considered tenkeyless, but then along comes some random game, program or KVM switch that actually makes a distinction between the numpad keys and the other duplicate keys and blows that all away.

I'm currently trying a setup where the mousepad can sit over the numpad. It seems nice for just general browsing since it's right there, but I suspect it's to cramped for gaming. Your elbow ends up at more of a right angle, tucked against the side of your torso and that doesn't seem comfortable for whipping the mouse around. Some vigorous Fallout: New Vegas testing is in order!:laser:

[Findecanor]

A while ago at work (before I had taken my mechanical tenkeyless keyboard there), a co-worker complained to me about the numpad begin in the way for using the mouse... and he is someone who actually uses the numpad regularly. I told him that he should ask for a tenkeyless keyboard replacement, at which he said "They are keyboards that are made that way?".

By the way, years ago, I saw on TV a Guiness World Record attempt at typing numbers. He did it with both hands on the number row.

[JinDesu]

A while ago at work (before I had taken my mechanical tenkeyless keyboard there), a co-worker complained to me about the numpad begin in the way for using the mouse... and he is someone who actually uses the numpad regularly. I told him that he should ask for a tenkeyless keyboard replacement, at which he said "They are keyboards that are made that way?".

By the way, years ago, I saw on TV a Guiness World Record attempt at typing numbers. He did it with both hands on the number row.

Logically that makes sense to me, because you can get 8 or 10 of your fingers on, whereas the numpad would be too tight to get more than one hand on.

[Moogle Stiltzkin]

Because it brings your mouse like 6" to the left and your body is better centered for important things like web browsing.  This can mean ease of tension in your right shoulder and arm.  Entering numbers with the top row isn't that hard.

Pretty much basically.

And probably also because it's smaller in size and weight for portability.



But in my own opinion; i prefer the 104 standard keys. Once you have used a Logitech G15 as long as i have; 104 isn't that big after all.

[CodeChef]

By the way, years ago, I saw on TV a Guiness World Record attempt at typing numbers. He did it with both hands on the number row.

This?

[bakageta]

If you want the mouse-related ergonomic benefits of a tenkeyless, but the numpad benefit of tenkeyful, get a tenkeyless and put a numpad on the left side of your keyboard.

I use a pointing device on both sides so this doesn't really work for me.  I just use the number row.  Really you could put the numpad anywhere in your reach if you aren't reaching for it more often than your mouse.

I just put a numpad on the right of my mouse, I use it just often enough to want one, but far less often than the mouse, so the positioning works out. Prior to my Filco tenkeyless, I've been using various rubber dome compact layouts for years, I just don't see how people can game with something like a G15, where their hands have like two feet between them.

[8_INCH_FLOPPY]

I have one keyboard with Futaba switches and the numberpad on the left.  Does that count?

[Kairxa]

This?

Correction. Only the youtube code should be posted under the BB Code tag.

[youtube]M9lpqG9ZvGY[ /youtube] << That's how it should be done.

[Forsaken]

Just put the mouse on the left side of the keyboard. =p I always do, but then I'm a lefty.

[itlnstln]

If you work for your goals, your goals will work for you.