Author Topic: Trackballs are better?  (Read 25967 times)

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Offline bigpook

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Trackballs are better?
« on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 07:52:43 »
Just saw this and thought I would share.

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Offline jpc

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 08:40:42 »
I like it. Where did you see that?

My RSI pain has receded, I think because of:

1. Sliding keyboard trays, nice and low, at home and at work
2. Trackballs, full time
3. No more coffee. It's relaxing :D
4. Less sure this matters... Started holding my hands in the air over the keyboard, instead of resting them on a palm rest. This encourages you to rest your hands off the keyboard between thoughts, instead of keeping them frozen tensely in place.

A Kensington Expert Mouse v7 has been my daily for a few months and probably will be for a long time.

I could not get used to the shape of the CST trackball. Too much dorsiflexion, if you use it without a palm rest. The odd shape of the CST prevents you from using it with a palm rest. I tried a bunch of wacky things but none worked, not really. Boo.

The KEM is ergonomic out of the box, the included wrist rest is pretty much a perfect shape.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:08:20 by jpc »

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline mr_a500

  • Posts: 401
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 08:49:12 »
I've always thought the mouse was a pretty dumb idea - ever since I first used one in 1985. Trackballs are way better. You don't have to hold your hand like a cramped claw. You can use any finger to roll a trackball. You don't have to lift the thing to reposition or reserve desk space for rolling room. You don't need a stupid small scroll wheel. A trackball can act like a big comfortable scroll wheel.

I only use trackballs on my computers (not the stupid small "mouse" trackballs - the big balls). I've liked trackballs ever since I first tried one in 1980 - on the Centipede arcade game.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 December 2010, 08:51:49 by mr_a500 »

Offline Fwiffo

  • Posts: 358
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 09:06:23 »
I like trackballs better than trackpads, but that's not saying much, because trackpads ARE THE DEVIL. I find trackballs pretty useless for gaming and anything that requires speed or precision. Then again, I don't have any RSI problems.
You can call me... Keyboard Otaku... or not quite...

Offline Daniel Beaver

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 09:20:47 »
I agree with this in theory, but in practice I have always felt that I had better control when using a mouse. Perhaps that is just a result of using one every day for years and years. I keep a Kensigton Expert Mouse around for those times when I feel the itch.

One issue I have with trackballs - I find it annoyingly difficult to press the buttons on it without giggling the trackball somewhat. That's a big deal when I'm playing Starcraft or an FPS, to the point of rendering the game unplayable. Maybe it just takes practice.

Anything is better than a trackpad, in any case. Satan designed those.

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Offline PRISONER 24601

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 11:00:54 »
It boggles the mind that more FPS gamers don't use trackballs exclusively.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.
G80-3000LSCRC-2 (MX), "Ricercar" G86-6241OEUAGSA (MX), MX11800 (MX), AEKII (ALPS), AEK (ALPS) Apple Keyboard A9M0330 (ALPS), IBM Model F XT (Bucking Spring), IBM Space Saver 1391472 (Bucking Spring).

Offline bigpook

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 11:47:21 »
Quote from: jpc;258625
I like it. Where did you see that?



reddit
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Offline jpc

  • Posts: 363
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:11:19 »
Quote from: Daniel Beaver;258646

One issue I have with trackballs - I find it annoyingly difficult to press the buttons on it without giggling the trackball somewhat.


Try binding unused keyboard keys to pointer buttons. Avoids the jiggling issue. Also you will sound like you're working when you're just browsing GH.

I never used left shift, left control, or left alt so those became left, middle, and right pointer buttons.

No idea how to do that in Windows; my CST review has a little howto for Linux.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline chimera15

  • Posts: 1441
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:42:22 »
I've used trackballs exclusively for 20 years now.  The main advantage to me has always been, they don't require desk space, or a desk to use them, so you can use them reclining in a big comfy chair, or even in bed.

The main problem that people have using a trackball these days is that most trackballs now are 10 years old and use low dpi sensors.  The TBE is probably the greatest trackball ever made, but only uses an 800 dpi sensor, so it's fairly low resolution and kind of imprecise on modern size desktops.  You can see that if you ever try to draw with one, the line is super jagged.  That's one of the reasons I made my gaming trackball mods.

There's also the issue that they usually require more maintenance if they don't have rotating points, which most people are clueless about, so after a month or even a week or two as a result of dust, the trackball becomes difficult to use, and they throw it away.  Even the designers and sellers in many cases don't anticipate the wear of points and the degradation of experience, which adds to the difficulty of using them.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:51:23 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline microsoft windows

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:45:35 »
Quote from: chimera15;258802
I've used trackballs exclusively for 20 years now.  The main advantage to me has always been, they don't require desk space, or a desk to use them, so you can use them reclining in a big comfy chair, or even in bed.    The main problem that people have using a trackball these days is that most trackballs now are 10 years old and use low dpi sensors.  The TBE is probably the greatest trackball ever made, but only uses an 800 dpi sensor, so it's fairly low resolution and kind of imprecise on modern size desktops.  You can see that if you ever try to draw with one, the line is super jagged.  That's one of the reasons I made my gaming trackball mods.


Most of the pointing devices I use (trackballs, laser mice, and even mechanical mice) work great without a desk. I use my mice on the armrest of my chair all the time.
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Offline chimera15

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:53:16 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;258805
Most of the pointing devices I use (trackballs, laser mice, and even mechanical mice) work great without a desk. I use my mice on the armrest of my chair all the time.


Depends on the kind of comfy chair you have, and how big the arm rest is.  They're definitely more difficult to use than a trackball that doesn't require movement over a surface.
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline chimera15

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 12:58:17 »
Quote from: ripster;258804
#1 comment on Reddit.



I joined the 50 others in upvoting it.

I used to use a trackball to fps game exclusively, but switched to a wacom tablet for that.  It works fine and actually has some advantage because you don't have limits really like you do with a mouse.  In a turning close in fight you can spin around an opponent and catch him because he may only be able to spin 3 times, where you don't have that limit.  The main key to using a trackball to fps game with is being able to adjust the resolution and polling on the fly, so you have sensitivity depending on the situation.  Without that it's more difficult and you have to find the exact right butter zone in the sensitivity control in the mouse properties, which can be difficult.   I use a trackball as well still today to play games like fallout and it still works great.  I almost never use VATS.


A trackball has uses in games, depending on the game, for instance it's actually a great alternative to a joystick believe it or not.  I use my trackball to control aircraft and choppers in Warrrock which doesn't work with joysticks.  I have precise control, even better I would say than I would have with a joystick.  If you use a mouse to control an aircraft you have a limit that you hit in turning fights which is a great disadvantage.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 December 2010, 13:20:10 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline shrap

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 14:21:22 »
The person in that drawing has HUGE hands.

There's only one thing that I can do better with a mouse than a trackball, but sadly it seems to be very important for gaming: clicking and dragging.

Offline Arc'xer

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 14:57:32 »
Quote from: bigpook;258752
reddit


So much ignorance on that thread. Most of the people keep going in circles with the same trackballs, I bet not one of them knows about higher-end trackballs, it's always logitech/Microsoft.

Hilarious the fact they said not one pro plays quake or unreal with a trackball. Some of the first quake/Unreal hell for other games as well, those pros were trackball users. Even the combined systems like panther XL, were considered trackballs.

I still think most of the anti-trackball comes from gaming or at least the lack of a gaming capable trackball. No matter what it seems that is the case for a lot of products popularity. It doesn't matter how unergonomic, it doesn't matter how much RSI you can get from using a mouse people will still use a mouse. Like in that thread most don't know any better and don't bother to research any better.

Offline shrap

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 15:56:41 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;258963
So much ignorance on that thread. Most of the people keep going in circles with the same trackballs, I bet not one of them knows about higher-end trackballs, it's always logitech/Microsoft.

Hilarious the fact they said not one pro plays quake or unreal with a trackball. Some of the first quake/Unreal hell for other games as well, those pros were trackball users. Even the combined systems like panther XL, were considered trackballs.

I still think most of the anti-trackball comes from gaming or at least the lack of a gaming capable trackball. No matter what it seems that is the case for a lot of products popularity. It doesn't matter how unergonomic, it doesn't matter how much RSI you can get from using a mouse people will still use a mouse. Like in that thread most don't know any better and don't bother to research any better.


What's a "gaming capable" trackball, and how would it be different from a normal trackball? Other than silly paint and LEDs.

Offline Arc'xer

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:11:52 »
Quote from: shrap;259056
What's a "gaming capable" trackball, and how would it be different from a normal trackball? Other than silly paint and LEDs.

A much better engine capable of taking more snapshots of the surface of the ball for more accurate movements. Capable of withstanding high Gs of forces when moving; some people are capable of flicking their mouse hard enough to register almost 3 meters/s, I wouldn't be surprised if some are flicking the ball on their trackball and hitting the max tracking speed with barely any effort. In particular to higher DPI especially wanted in trackball. And the capability to change the polling rate.

Just like how the mouse has been improved over the years the same benefits for the trackball.

And just because a mouse is seen to you as a "paint and LEDs" doesn't make it silly. Are there gimmicky gaming mice out there yes but there are also some who have proven to be excellent peripherals.

Offline guilleguillaume

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:13:04 »
I found a video of a guy playing Counter Strike with a Logitech Trackball Marble Mouse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NUJIuh6AxA&feature=related

So I actually think that trackball will not be that bad for gaming but anyways i will tell you this week I hope when I receive my new M570

Offline Arc'xer

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:18:35 »
This guy as well

You can tell there's some points were he loses control for just a tiny moment but that might be inherent with the trackball.

Offline shrap

  • Posts: 215
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:11:31 »
Err, my statement wasn't a dig on mice or gaming mice, just the gimmicky ones which we both know of.

It sounds like there's a chicken and egg problem - most gamers will buy what's popular, and what's popular are gaming mice. And then the top gamers will be the ones who grew up using gaming mice, not trackballs. Those top gamers are used as sponsors for... gaming mice.

Offline chimera15

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:27:19 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;259068
A much better engine capable of taking more snapshots of the surface of the ball for more accurate movements. Capable of withstanding high Gs of forces when moving; some people are capable of flicking their mouse hard enough to register almost 3 meters/s, I wouldn't be surprised if some are flicking the ball on their trackball and hitting the max tracking speed with barely any effort. In particular to higher DPI especially wanted in trackball. And the capability to change the polling rate.

Just like how the mouse has been improved over the years the same benefits for the trackball.

And just because a mouse is seen to you as a "paint and LEDs" doesn't make it silly. Are there gimmicky gaming mice out there yes but there are also some who have proven to be excellent peripherals.


On the fly variable dpi up to 4000+, programmable macro 5+ buttons.  Buttons positioned so that you can actuate two or more at the same time and still have full control and manipulate the trackball.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:36:27 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline NamelessPFG

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 19:07:11 »
I couldn't get used to a trackball for gaming (Marble Madness and other such games designed specifically around trackballs excluded). That's why I sold my CH DT225 USB, which actually was bought partially with gaming in mind (to integrate with the Fighterstick and Pro Pedals I also used to have, all with the Control Manager).

The problem I have is that with a mouse, I make a quick flick to the desired area of the screen in under a tenth of a second, and then fine-tune it from there. With a trackball, there generally isn't enough surface area for me to do that without ramping up the sensitivity to ludicrous, uncontrollable levels or letting inertia carry the cursor there...while the enemy just shot you in the face.

On the other hand, that rolling inertia is exactly why it works better for Marble Madness and such in the first place.

Quote from: chimera15;258824
I used to use a trackball to fps game exclusively, but switched to a wacom tablet for that.  It works fine and actually has some advantage because you don't have limits really like you do with a mouse.

Wait, what? Something tells me you aren't using the bundled mouse, or the pen in pen mode for that matter (which relies on absolute coordinates whereas games rely on relative coordinates, so putting the pen within range of the tablet results in spazzed-out mouse input). I really want to know how you got it to work out.

Quote from: chimera15;258824
A trackball has uses in games, depending on the game, for instance it's actually a great alternative to a joystick believe it or not.  I use my trackball to control aircraft and choppers in Warrrock which doesn't work with joysticks.  I have precise control, even better I would say than I would have with a joystick.  If you use a mouse to control an aircraft you have a limit that you hit in turning fights which is a great disadvantage.

Let's see how well that trackball holds out in IL-2 Sturmovik: 1946 or DCS: Black Shark...I honestly want to know if you'd fare better off with a trackball over a joystick in those titles.

It probably works out better in games with simplified flight models, where it's largely "point, fly, and shoot", but when you have to worry about the aircraft twitching about because it's on the edge of a stall or you're just handling it too roughly, and you don't know whether you've hit max deflection on a given axis or not...then again, I suppose that if you put your finger in the center of the trackball, never reposition it, and just move it 'til your finger hits the edges of the trackball base, you'd get a good approximation. (No centering force, though, for better or for worse.)

Offline chimera15

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 19:32:58 »
I haven't tried using a trackball in a full on flight sim yet as I haven't played any in the last few years as no good titles have come out. Do you know one?  It's true that War Rock has a flight control system that is simplified, and the control surfaces on the jets and choppers return to zero if no input is detected.  The speed that the mouse or trackball is moved is what defines how fast you turn and how much the control surface is deflected. That would probably be the difference.  I'm not sure if that's true with a normal sim, or if that would be able to be set.  Probably if they don't return to zero though I imagine it might make it easier to control...the key would be to just create a spot on the trackball with a piece of rubber or something, and it would work exactly as a joystick in that case.




Wacom tablets have mouse mode for pens which allows relative positioning.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 December 2010, 19:45:06 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline NamelessPFG

  • Posts: 373
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 21:40:44 »
That's why I suspected you weren't using the pen in pen mode. Mouse mode would get around that, but it still wouldn't feel quite right to me. (Then again, I suppose it would look kind of like poking your foe in the face with the pen as you tap it down onto the tablet surface for a kill...)

And you're saying that no good flight sims have come out in the last few years? IL-2 would probably be old to you, but DCS: Black Shark and A-10C Warthog (still in beta) are definitely recent sims in my eyes...and, yes, they're full-on flight sims for the hardcore of the hardcore. I personally wouldn't want to imagine using the clickable cockpit without a TrackIR...

...oh, yeah, if you're using your trackball to control the aircraft in lieu of the joystick, how are you going to toggle all of those switches when needed? Keyboard shortcuts?

Offline chimera15

  • Posts: 1441
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #23 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 23:21:13 »
Yeah, a nostromo should work.  Also my gaming trackball is based on a lachesis and has 4 customizable buttons, in addition to the right and left click and dpi switching.   I'll look up dcs black shark.
« Last Edit: Tue, 07 December 2010, 23:24:22 by chimera15 »
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline 2084

  • Posts: 73
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 09 December 2010, 16:04:28 »
Honestly those videos of the QLive and CounterStrike looked extremely stiff, they were basically aiming with the the keyboard by strafing and only having a general direction with the pointing device. They are not able to do a quick 180 turn or any direct aim it seems.
Mice for FPS are perfect in my opinion...

And what about the 2nd illustration in the picture? I've never seen anyone using the middle finger for the mouse3 since the mousewheel was invented

Offline godly_music

  • Posts: 255
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 08:04:56 »
Who uses his arm and shoulder for precision aiming with a mouse?

Fancy pictures do not a legitimate argument make.

Offline Earth Worm Jim

  • Posts: 20
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 09:28:20 »
I fricken' hate mice!!!! Trackball all-day everyday, even for gaming.

Offline Arc'xer

  • Posts: 482
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 14:32:40 »
Quote from: godly_music;260637
Who uses his arm and shoulder for precision aiming with a mouse?

It's the entire bases of medium-to-low-sensitivity gaming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FD3_T6N20A&hd=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hBJjRguDsI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlqJlUqz-hA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW5rmOiKoy0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M9SvDlCi_Y
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 December 2010, 15:41:25 by Arc'xer »

Offline Milquetoast

  • Posts: 20
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 22:06:26 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;258963
So much ignorance on that thread. Most of the people keep going in circles with the same trackballs, I bet not one of them knows about higher-end trackballs, it's always logitech/Microsoft.

Hilarious the fact they said not one pro plays quake or unreal with a trackball. Some of the first quake/Unreal hell for other games as well, those pros were trackball users. Even the combined systems like panther XL, were considered trackballs.

I still think most of the anti-trackball comes from gaming or at least the lack of a gaming capable trackball. No matter what it seems that is the case for a lot of products popularity. It doesn't matter how unergonomic, it doesn't matter how much RSI you can get from using a mouse people will still use a mouse. Like in that thread most don't know any better and don't bother to research any better.


Most "hardcore" FPS gamers are treading water in a huge ocean of groupthink, so you're not going to see many of them up for "new" ideas (despite the trackball predating the mouse).

I think you're right about the lack of "modern" gaming capable* trackballs causing most to not even consider using one, but I can understand why manufacturers don't bother making one when such a "radical" new idea is likely to be rejected with cries of "LOL ***!" by the very demographic it attempts to woo. It's a circle of defeat.

* By "gaming capable" I don't mean "gussied up with a bunch of gratuitous LEDs and shiny crap, and named Deathmasta Eviscerator 9000 XL Double Extreme Edition". I mean something capable of high resolution and accurate high-speed tracking.
« Last Edit: Fri, 10 December 2010, 22:45:20 by Milquetoast »

Offline Milquetoast

  • Posts: 20
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 22:20:28 »
Quote from: 2084;260300
Honestly those videos of the QLive and CounterStrike looked extremely stiff, they were basically aiming with the the keyboard by strafing and only having a general direction with the pointing device. They are not able to do a quick 180 turn or any direct aim it seems.
Mice for FPS are perfect in my opinion...


That's one of the reasons I don't think thumb operated trackballs, or smaller diameter trackballs for gaming. You pretty much need a high sensitivity to do a quick 180, which makes your regular movements more jerky.

I won't try to talk anybody out of using a mouse if that's what they like, but with a good trackball, I don't think you're handicapped versus a mouse.

Unfortunately, good trackballs are hard to find.

Offline bigpook

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 1723
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 04:11:00 »
Quote from: Milquetoast;261132


Unfortunately, good trackballs are hard to find.


What is good? I have been using a kensington slimblade for the past year with no problems. Its a great trackball and don't see myself changing it out for something else but I don't game with it. While I don't game on the pc anymore, when I did, I used a regular mouse.
What are/were the great gaming trackballs?
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Offline guilleguillaume

  • Posts: 694
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #31 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 10:02:46 »
I received my M570 2 days ago and I have to admit that's using a trackball it's fantastic.

In desktop usage I prefer it over the mouse and I play many games with it doing it better than with the mouse but mainly in shooter games I still use my Kinzu. Playing Bad Company 2 with the Trackball when using Helicopters it's so nice and more easy than with the mouse or keyboard only.

Offline Lanx

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #32 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 20:57:25 »
if trackballs are this awesome i might consider it

Offline aegrotatio

  • Posts: 334
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 21:42:37 »
Trackballs have a low-volume manufacturing run, meaning the good ones (Kensington, Microsoft) are expensive.

Recently the best value in trackballs are refurbished Logitech Trackman Marble models.  Unfortunately we bought them all up and they're back up to the $25 range, close to the price of new ones (which has also gone up).

Where I can, though, I use Kensington Expert Mouse 64325.  About once a year it gets down to $60 after rebate.
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Offline Milquetoast

  • Posts: 20
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #34 on: Sun, 12 December 2010, 00:21:29 »
Quote from: bigpook;261214
What is good? I have been using a kensington slimblade for the past year with no problems. Its a great trackball and don't see myself changing it out for something else but I don't game with it. While I don't game on the pc anymore, when I did, I used a regular mouse.
What are/were the great gaming trackballs?


Funny you should mention that, because I just got a Slimblade yesterday, and spend a good portion of last night testing it out.

There's a lot I like about it, but it's showing the problem I've seen in other laser devices in that there seems to be built-in acceleration. It's not as noticable as with the CST L-Trac, but it's definitely there and it gives movement an imprecise "floaty" feel. I think this is just the way that the laser sensors deals with difficulty with high speed tracking, and I think they have difficulty tracking a completely smooth surface, despite what the marketing hype would have you believe. This makes it a bad choice for gaming, for me.

Yeah, I know, I'm too damn picky.

You can go to gaming forums and find people objectively testing and reporting on the minutiae of optical sensors in gaming mice, trying to find the one that most accurately translates movements to data, but gripe about how there's still no trackball out there that can track high speed/high resolution on par with a good gaming mouse, and you're some sort of obsessive weirdo.

Currently, I still use a CH DT225 for gaming. Though it's using old-fashioned opto-mechanical sensors, and it's too low resolution for normal desktop use, it never fails to solidly track my movement. Also, it's built like a freakin' HumVee.

I think what I'd really like to see is a higher resolution version of the DT225, with a scroll wheel mounted on it. I'd also like a pony, and free ice cream for the rest of my life.

Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #35 on: Sun, 12 December 2010, 01:52:36 »
can't we just mod a modern day gaming mouse (at least 1500 dpi) into a trackball? i smell research!

Offline flashstar

  • Posts: 26
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #36 on: Sun, 12 December 2010, 13:46:37 »
I prefer the mouse because it has less momentum. Trackballs tend to have a ton of momentum so constantly stopping and rolling the trackball can get tiring in games like CS:S. Mice may not be the best ergonomically but they are are maneuverable.
Keyboards: Omnikey 102 (complicated whites), Omnikey Ultra T (blues), Omnikey 101p (FUKKAs), Focus FK-2001 (comp whites), Escom (blues, for parts)

Offline vegaman

  • Posts: 32
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 13 December 2010, 05:37:41 »
Quote from: Lanx;261612
can't we just mod a modern day gaming mouse (at least 1500 dpi) into a trackball? i smell research!


Apparently so: http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=259326&postcount=28
Not sure if he's got a thread or wiki with more info though.

Offline Choopy

  • Posts: 4
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 13 December 2010, 08:43:53 »
Quote from: 2084;260300
Honestly those videos of the QLive and CounterStrike looked extremely stiff, they were basically aiming with the the keyboard by strafing and only having a general direction with the pointing device. They are not able to do a quick 180 turn or any direct aim it seems.
Mice for FPS are perfect in my opinion...

And what about the 2nd illustration in the picture? I've never seen anyone using the middle finger for the mouse3 since the mousewheel was invented

+1, my thoughts exactly.

This type of play may work in those games though, especially CS 1.6 (where you basically have to fire in the general direction of the target anyway). I'd like to see some impressive kills in CS:S.

Actually, I'm not sure if I'd really use a frag video when deciding whether or not to use a trackball for gaming.

Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #39 on: Mon, 13 December 2010, 12:32:45 »
Quote from: vegaman;262135
Apparently so: http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=259326&postcount=28
Not sure if he's got a thread or wiki with more info though.


i found it!
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=7536
Chimera15 is there an update?
I think i'll try something like this too (don't know if i want to take on 2 mods at once tho) But i can't get the thought out of modding a trackball, would seem cool!

Offline Zen

  • Posts: 96
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #40 on: Mon, 13 December 2010, 14:20:57 »
Quote
Trackballs are better?
Yes .

Quote
4. Less sure this matters... Started holding my hands in the air over the keyboard, instead of resting them on a palm rest. This encourages you to rest your hands off the keyboard between thoughts, instead of keeping them frozen tensely in place.

I'm pretty sure that's a MAJOR part of it !
A low keyboard-tray just makes it easier ..
People were taught that hand-positioning back in the old days
when typewriters were mechanical devices .
Or try and rest your hands on the piano during lessons
and see how fast you get a slap !!

woody

  •  Guest
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #41 on: Mon, 13 December 2010, 16:22:54 »
I am not sure whether this thread is about trackballs being better in gaming or in general. The former I don't know and don't care, but for the latter my preference goes to the Slimblade - I am really satisfied with it as a pointing device. In the beginning was using it with a corner of the wrist pad, but then I realized it works better for me without one and slightly angled with respect to the keyboard.

Offline theferenc

  • Posts: 1327
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #42 on: Thu, 16 December 2010, 20:30:21 »
I loves my CST L-TracX. Feels vastly better than my Logitech. I'm not a gamer though, so I can't say anything about that, but being able to use my fine motor skills better with the trackball than the mouse is a bonus.

And, you know, the billiard ball is slick looking.

Plus, the switchable DPI is nice. If only I could get it stay at 1600 (my preferred speed for usual movement). Whenever it gets unplugged and replugged, it goes back to 800. I admit, many gaming mice have this ability as well. But it's still nice.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline sadbox

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 16 December 2010, 21:51:07 »
Quote from: theferenc;264331
If only I could get it stay at 1600 (my preferred speed for usual movement). Whenever it gets unplugged and replugged, it goes back to 800.


Turns out that the L-Trac-X I bought defaults to 1600 =)
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Offline theferenc

  • Posts: 1327
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 16 December 2010, 22:03:58 »
Weird, mine definitely defaults to 800. 400 -> 800 -> 1600 -> 3200 is how it goes. At least according to the documentation. Maybe it's 8,16,24,32?

Whatever it is, I want the 3rd level. I thought that was 1600, but I could be wrong. The docs it came with say one thing, everywhere else it says something different.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline sadbox

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Trackballs are better?
« Reply #45 on: Fri, 17 December 2010, 22:26:32 »
Quote from: theferenc;264358
Weird, mine definitely defaults to 800. 400 -> 800 -> 1600 -> 3200 is how it goes. At least according to the documentation. Maybe it's 8,16,24,32?

Whatever it is, I want the 3rd level. I thought that was 1600, but I could be wrong. The docs it came with say one thing, everywhere else it says something different.


If I read right no led = 400, red = 800, green = 1600, and amber = 3200

Mine will always start at green, I might just not know what the LED means though xD
Work: Topre Realforce + CST L-Trac
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Offline Lanx

  • Posts: 1915
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #46 on: Fri, 17 December 2010, 23:56:27 »
i bought an old ass kensington trackball (the 2 1/4 kind) and i'm gonna mod it with a deathaddler!
i hate you trackball ppl, you got me rolling with ideas.

woody

  •  Guest
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 18 December 2010, 09:30:53 »
Quote from: ripster;265185
Maybe the HHKB3 or the HHKB 2024 Anniversary edition will remove the DIP switches.

Blasphemy, I tell you. Get the infidel out of the holy place.

Offline typo

  • Posts: 1676
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #48 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 00:40:30 »
two questions please. i am pretty intrested in a trackball as my wrist hurts like a mf.

are trackballs equivelant to a mouse in the sense of dpi? i do precision work and my mouse must be on 1500dpi to be right for me on a 22" display.
does this translate to a trackball. or is a 800 dpi trackball equivelant?

if it is equivelant, please name a top of the line trackball i can get at a well known retailer. like new egg,tiger direct,cdw,best buy etc. i only shop at those places.

thanks

Offline db_Iodine

  • Posts: 656
Trackballs are better?
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 01:39:29 »
Does anyone know if CST Lasertrac is available anywhere from Europe? I wouldn't want to pay customs fee because of ordering from outside of EU.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 December 2010, 11:20:07 by db_Iodine »
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