Author Topic: My Ultimate Compact Layout  (Read 10431 times)

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Offline Nadger

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My Ultimate Compact Layout
« on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 14:28:12 »
The flaws with the Irocks KR-6230 design and a standard tenkeyless design inspired me to create my own keyboard layout.

I wanted a design that was compact, yet wouldnt take you months to get used to.  I also wanted it to be a good gaming keyboard.

The compact nature of the board promotes better gaming ergonomics.  Having a shorter keyboard allows more space for your mouse to the right.  This means your shoulders and arms are square with each other, which is more comfortable than having your hands skewed left to type or rest on the wsad cluster while your right hand is skewed right to rest on the mouse.

But compactness has always come at a cost.  Tenkeyless boards simply chop off the numpad.  Which is great, except when you have a lot of numbers to enter or calculations to do.  Other boards tried cramming the keys all together to make them all fit and mapping the numpad across the staggered letter keys.  This requires you to relearn a whole new keyboard and break a lot of habits.

I wanted something that didnt require you to give up how you currently do things, yet still offered a compact design.

I posted my initial design and many people liked it but some found flaws with it, and made a few good points.  I also found additional flaws with the design upon re-examining it.  So I modified the design and here is

Version 2.0




OUTDATED ORIGINALS:
Code: [Select]
V 1.0
[IMG]http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13865&stc=1&d=12917545517[/IMG]
V 1.1
[IMG]http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=13887&stc=1&d=1291801077[/IMG]


  • I wanted to keep the standard US layout i am most familiar with, so no L enter and it also has a long backspace.
  • I added a gamelock key which functions as follows
  • When game lock is on, it disables the OS key instead mapping it to Right Alt. It also maps the caps lock position key to Right Ctrl. This allows you to utilize the keys for key binds in games. While also preventing accidental drops to desktop. Having backspace mapped here while gaming would also be bad for multiplayer games. As you would loose the ability to backspace if you bound this key to something else.
  • When Game Lock is off, the caps lock position key functions as a backspace. This gives you an easier to reach backspace key like many people wanted.
  • When Scroll Lock is on, the caps lock position key functions as capslock. This was done because some people actively use caps lock in their daily typing, and also as an option for people who
  • When both Game Lock and Scroll Lock are on, Game Lock gets priority. So it functions as Right Ctrl. I wanted to avoid any accidental caps lock events from occurring in multiplayer gaming.
  • I removed the right OS key replacing it instead with pause/break. I did this for 2 reasons. First, i didnt have anywhere else to put it. Second, i figured it may be handy there for coders/debugging.
  • I am so used to home, end, delete locations moving them much would throw me off.  So i decided to integrate them into the numpad.  They will only work when numlock is off.
  • With numlock off, you also have access to the arrow keys. As well as the media keys & print screen.
  • With Numlock on and it behaves just like any numpad should with minimal relearning.
  • I made the app key also function as a modifier key so App+F12 will send the sleep command. I am not 100% certain if this would work without software, if it did not i would either remove the sleep key, or perhaps make it alt+gamelock.
  • I moved the function keys closer to the number keys than normal to allow you to reach them easier.
  • Note this is just a layout idea.  I would of course change the font size/alignment etc if i were talking a real keyboard.
  • I made sure the LED for lock lights were on the board and not on the keys to allow for key cap swaps and for any type of plastic to be used.
  • I kept default US key sizes so you can easily order different keycaps.


This board would be great for me, but i am not a typist, nor do i use the numpad or arrow keys a whole lot.  So it makes sense for me.
What about you?  What do you think of the layout?  What would you change?
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 December 2010, 02:06:40 by Nadger »
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Offline fssbzz

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« Reply #1 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 14:34:45 »
thats a great layout!

Offline theferenc

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« Reply #2 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 14:47:33 »
I actually really like the compactness of that, though I would mimic the HHKB layout, personally, which is ideal, in my mind (well, after proper dip settings -- swap super and alt, backspace delete, and enable the caps lock layer on the tab key).

Out of curiosity, what did you use to create the image of your layout?
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Offline Nadger

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« Reply #3 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 14:59:20 »
Quote from: fssbzz;258927
thats a great layout!

Thanks, its just too bad it will never come to be =P

Though if i get bored i may mockup a photoshop fake of it that looks real =p

Quote from: theferenc;258941
I actually really like the compactness of that, though I would mimic the HHKB layout, personally, which is ideal, in my mind (well, after proper dip settings -- swap super and alt, backspace delete, and enable the caps lock layer on the tab key).

Out of curiosity, what did you use to create the image of your layout?


Yeah a lot of people seem to really like the HHKB layout, i think its got a lot of cool/good ideas on compactness.

I wanted this to have a very easy transition from a typical 104 layout.  HHKB is like where you would graduate to after this layout =p

And yeah i used photoshop and this image as a source to edit:  http://www.bristol.ac.uk/is/learning/documentation/keyboard-1/keyboard-r1-6.gif
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Offline CeeSA

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« Reply #4 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 15:08:30 »
could you predict the size?
i think ideal is a length of 30 cm

Offline Nadger

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« Reply #5 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 15:19:22 »
Well its basically has 1 column of keys more then a tenkeyless design, but it also has a smaller gap between the main keys and the numpad.  Depending on what kind of bevel/edge you had you could actually get it to be the same size as a filco tenkeyless, or slightly bigger if you did have some edging around the board.

So i would guess 32-35cm depending on how close you cut to the edges and how big of a gap you allowed between the numpad and board.

30 may be possible if you totally eliminated side casing.
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Offline RoboKrikit

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« Reply #6 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 15:35:14 »
You put an even more useless key in the 'Caps Lock' spot.  That is prime real estate!  I prefer Ctrl there, but Backspace would be good too, since you're leaving the standard Backspace in the top right corner.
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Offline Lanx

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« Reply #7 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 15:40:23 »
i could never figure out what key to "replace" capslock with even though i'm making a fully customized keyboard, so i just gave up and left it standard.
I was thinking of making it a second enter? I mean i have a central vertical enter in my v1 split design but i almost never use it. But if the enter key is symetrical on both sides of the pinky, that might work.

Offline Phaedrus2129

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« Reply #8 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:52:28 »
I usually remap caps lock to Delete and pause/break to caps lock.
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Offline shrap

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« Reply #9 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 16:55:15 »
I like what you did by combining the numpad and a "close to standard" key arrangement for the arrow keys/pageupdown cluster.

As a dedicated user of the "numpad without num lock" method, my brain would probably explode.

Offline RoboKrikit

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« Reply #10 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:29:46 »
Quote from: Lanx;259041
i could never figure out what key to "replace" capslock with even though i'm making a fully customized keyboard, so i just gave up and left it standard.
I was thinking of making it a second enter? I mean i have a central vertical enter in my v1 split design but i almost never use it. But if the enter key is symetrical on both sides of the pinky, that might work.


It actually makes a decent Shift key too.  Even if there's also a standard-location Shift key under it, nobody gets hurt. :)
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Offline Nadger

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« Reply #11 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:41:02 »
Quote from: RoboKrikit;259035
You put an even more useless key in the 'Caps Lock' spot.  That is prime real estate!  I prefer Ctrl there, but Backspace would be good too, since you're leaving the standard Backspace in the top right corner.


Well i suppose you could put pause/break down where ctrl is.  But then you mess up all your muscle memory shortcuts for photoshop/copy/paste/ctrl alt delete etc.

Quote from: Lanx;259041
i could never figure out what key to "replace" capslock with even though i'm making a fully customized keyboard, so i just gave up and left it standard.
I was thinking of making it a second enter? I mean i have a central vertical enter in my v1 split design but i almost never use it. But if the enter key is symetrical on both sides of the pinky, that might work.


Yeah the key is just stoping it from being a LED light switch.  Then you can easily rebind it to whatever without loosing any functionality/annoying lights.

Pause/break allows it to be bound to whatever in gaming...crouch, autorun, whatever.  Or even your second enter idea which isnt bad for typists...would just take  awhile to get used to the fact that its there.

The other thing you may be able to do with it is a double return for staring a new paragraph, or even a delete/backspace key for your left hand.

Quote from: shrap;259096
I like what you did by combining the numpad and a "close to standard" key arrangement for the arrow keys/pageupdown cluster.

As a dedicated user of the "numpad without num lock" method, my brain would probably explode.


Man ive never seen anyone use those keys in that way before!  How does one even get into the habit of doing that?

---------

I was trying too to think of some more function keys...as it stands f8-f11 are not used.  I couldnt think of what to do with them.

I had some ideas for some but they would require software to be running in the bg to work.  I wanted a turn off monitor key in say F11 and maybe a ctrl+alt+delete key in F10

I even thought about having a forward/back shortcut for browsers like mice have but im not sure how useful that would be...but that would take up say f8 and f9 to complete the set.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #12 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:48:33 »
That's a good layout. It's compact, but still easy to use.
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Offline kill will

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« Reply #13 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 17:49:58 »
this is actually a good idea lol
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Offline sairex

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« Reply #14 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 22:20:05 »
I'd buy it.
   

Offline msiegel

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« Reply #15 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 22:24:15 »
model f will live again!

muahahahahaaa

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Offline Orphagn

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« Reply #16 on: Tue, 07 December 2010, 23:11:46 »
Very nice layout, i'd love to try something like this out!
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Offline Nadger

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« Reply #17 on: Wed, 08 December 2010, 03:39:39 »
So it happened, i got bored...updated original post with a mockup.



I used a ducky with black on blacks image as a source...so ignore the black print ;x
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Offline CeeSA

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« Reply #18 on: Wed, 08 December 2010, 04:40:22 »
the smaller gab between keys is a very good point. imo its a must have for a space saver.
but u cant use normal cherry mx keycaps. do you know an alternate?

Offline Sam

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« Reply #19 on: Wed, 08 December 2010, 05:27:42 »
Quote from: msiegel;259298
model f will live again!

muahahahahaaa


I'd love to have a Model F with the ESC and F keys up top to save some space length-wise.  But it must have that standard numpad on the right, specifically the 3x3 matrix with the arrows and Home, End, Page Up, Page Down in the standard numpad position, not in the cursorpad or any other configuration.  I can live with the Insert or Delete moved over to the right (actually prefer it that way), but messing with the 3x3 cursor matrix is absolutely forbidden for any layout I'll ever agree to use.

I spent years and years on the AT and simply love their double-use number/cursor pad.  The cursor keys on the numpad simply make 100% perfect logical sense and given I use them constantly throughout the day, the short finger travel for the 3x3 matrix simply cannot be beat.  If keyboard editing wasn't such a huge part of my daily life, I might not care so much.  I did try once to break away from it, but even after several weeks my productivity never approached what it was with the 3x3.

Offline shrap

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« Reply #20 on: Wed, 08 December 2010, 13:20:38 »
After using too many hacked up arrow key/pageup cluster configurations, it makes perfect sense for me to learn and use the numpad instead (in non-numpad mode). Manufacturers don't mess with the numpad config, except for the surrounding slash/plus/minus buttons.

The only bothersome thing is the huge insert key.

Offline Nadger

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« Reply #21 on: Wed, 08 December 2010, 16:47:54 »
Quote from: CeeSA;259441
the smaller gab between keys is a very good point. imo its a must have for a space saver.
but u cant use normal cherry mx keycaps. do you know an alternate?


I was refering to the gap between the numpad section and the key section, and the bezel around the keyboard.

I wouldnt want to mess with the gaps between the keys as this would result in having to relearn the entire keyboard into your muscle memory.  You would go to hit p and end up hitting [ if you made they gaps smaller or the keys smaller.

Though you could still do this with cherry mx keycaps.  They taper downwards so you could easily make keycaps that do not taper to get the keys to be more compact together.

-------------

On a side note i did make a few modifications to my layout.  I had delete twice on the numpad, so i replaced the period delete with backspace and i changed the order of the media keys to those you would access most to be first.

And yeah the idea is very very simple, yet no one has done a layout in this way.  There have been all sorts of messed up layouts but the simplest answer no one seems to have tried.

I was hoping by posting this someone would say "oh theres already a keyboard pretty close to that...heres a link"

but sadface instead.
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Offline Broncosoozie

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« Reply #22 on: Wed, 08 December 2010, 16:56:10 »
I like how it says "Nadjestouch" on the front lol.

I like that layout a lot too, although switching capslock and pause/break as Robo said is iffy.  An extra backspace or control would be cool.

I just had an idea, what if there were another modifier key, call it "super duper" and then you can bind key shortcuts.  Instead of saying "ctrl + C" for copy you could use "super duper + C".  Would be great for gaming or using something like Blender too, could have that many more shortcuts and still have a small board.  Would probably need some software though.

Plus if you get really mad at your computer you can "super duper + ctrl + alt + del"

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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #23 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 22:36:38 »
to add to Nadger's fine layout, i propose a Cursor key...

when Num Lock is on, hold the Cursor key with your thumb and use the cursor keys normally :)

(ignore f0, this version is masquerading as an hhkb ;)


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Offline Phaedrus2129

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« Reply #24 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 22:51:47 »
Quote from: msiegel;261135
to add to Nadger's fine layout, i propose a Cursor key...

when Num Lock is on, hold the Cursor key with your thumb and use the cursor keys normally :)

(ignore f0, this version is masquerading as an hhkb ;)

Show Image


That particular layout messes up the editing block again. That starts on the NumLock/*- row.

I think that instead of having an OS lock you could have a Numpad<->Editing/Arrow toggle.
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Offline RoboKrikit

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« Reply #25 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 22:52:09 »
I'm a fan of this layout.
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #26 on: Fri, 10 December 2010, 23:09:08 »
Quote from: Phaedrus2129;261138
That particular layout messes up the editing block again.


help, somebody update the numpad with Nadger's latest fixes!

(OpenOffice drawing attached and hereby released into public domain :)

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Offline Moogle Stiltzkin

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« Reply #27 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 01:42:36 »
Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • I wanted to keep the standard US layout i am most familiar with, so no L enter and it also has a long backspace.
Agreed. But isn't that a long backspace in your image ?


Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • You will notice i swapped caps lock and pause/break.  I did this for gaming reasons.  I didn't want caps lock toggling on/off if i want to rebind this key to something else.  I also didnt want to accidently turn caps on/off while playing.  Since Pause button does not typically do anything by default in games, and because of lock/light issues it made sense to move it.
Accidentally enabling caps to me won't affect my gaming. I rarely even accidentally acivate it either. But the windows would and i sometimes do press it by accident. Anyway i rather prefer if the pause/break and caps lock were switched back to their original positions.


Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • The left Ctrl is slightly bigger to account for its use in gaming making it easier to hit.
So your using a non standard sized ctrl ? Wouldn't this impact compatibility with other key sets e.g. Geekhack doubleshots or not ?


Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • You will also notice i got rid of the left OS button in favor of a function key.  This prevents accidentally hitting the key and being booted out of game because the Fn key by itself does nothing.  This also allowed for media keys.
Makes sense. Why do we need 2 anyway to begin with :/


Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • I kept the right OS key, because i do on occasion use the windows key, especially in windows 7.
Yeah i use it too. Yes i am aware of alt + tab also minimizes; but sometimes i prefer using the windows key as well. Sometimes one method doesn't work; i use the other and it manages to minimize.


Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • The OS lock in the upper right corner is basically useless, it was in my original design that had a windows key on the left side.  It was meant to toggle the windows keys on/off.  I decided to leave it in to make the board more customizable.  You could rebind Fn back to windows if you wanted, and use OS lock to prevent accidental hits. Binding Fn to something else like App.  Or use it to create your own toggle light like a rapid fire toggle with autohotkey.
I prefer it if the windows key was on the left side; so you can use the FN on the right to toggle windows key lock.


Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • I am so used to home, end, delete locations moving them much would throw me off.  So i decided to integrate them into the numpad.  They will only work when numlock is off.
  • With numlock off, you also have access to the arrow keys.
  • Numlock on and it behaves just like any numpad should with 0 relearning.
Makes sense. I like this idea how you managed to incorporate the numpad into a 10keyless design. It's brilliant !




Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • I also moved the function keys closer to the number keys than normal to allow you to reach them easier.
Guess that is fine.


Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • Also note this is just a layout idea.  I would of course change the font size/alignment etc if i were talking a real keyboard.
Font maybe like Cherry keyboards. Also preferably doubleshots like cherry keyboards as well; but knowing that is impossible i'd settle for doubleshots from Signature plastic same like White Rice's previous MO.

Regarding the color scheme; the black and white is nice and standard; but i prefer if it was using the same dolche color scheme like White rice's double shots. It looks less boring that way; and yet still professional looking without any weird colors like red/green/purple etc.


Quote from: Nadger;258924
  • Edit: I also made sure the LED for lock lights were on the board and not on the keys to allow for key cap swaps and for any type of plastic to be used.

As much as i like my Ducky dk-9008 led lights incorporated into the keycaps; this isn't a good idea especially since i will be using my own doubleshot custom keycaps. So yes having them in the broad face plate is much preferable.


Quote from: Nadger;258924
This board would be great for me, but i am not a typist, nor do i use the numpad or arrow keys a whole lot.  So it makes sense for me.
What about you?  What do you think of the layout?  What would you change?

I agree with most of your design except the ones i highlighted out previously. This seems an excellent option for those wanting numpad features but still able to have a 10 keyless compact keyboard. Kudos.




But to truly be the perfect keyboard to me; it would have to have led lighting similar to the Razer black widow ultimate; and NKRO to usb (but preferably NKRO USB for convenience sake)
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 December 2010, 02:13:45 by Moogle Stiltzkin »
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Offline Johannes

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« Reply #28 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 07:45:37 »
Mostly nice, but I strongly object to the pause/break position. It really ought to be something useful like ctrl or backspace.. It's easy to get used to because it's just 1 key change and it's so much better.

Offline isp

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« Reply #29 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 10:39:46 »
Another pause break dissenter here (ctrl or backspace would be my preference)...but that's about all I'd change really.
hhkb

Offline Soarer

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« Reply #30 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 11:01:14 »
What would I change? Well, tbh I'd revert to standard caps lock as well, and I think widen the gap between the numpad and the rest - visually it would look great if that gap matched the gap between number row and f-keys, and the gaps between e.g. F4 and F5. A bigger gap would also be quite handy for feeling your way into position on the numpad.

Why not split Insert and '+' into two keys each? It would allow you to put the cursors on the bottom row if you wanted. Personally, I like the standard cursor arrangement on the numpad (with 5 remapped to down), but with a custom controller you could have two modes - standard numpad cursors, and tenkeyless style cursors.

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #31 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 11:09:00 »
The Irocks could have been so great, every time I see one I wish I could get over the stupid layout.

Offline Nadger

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« Reply #32 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 18:06:37 »
Quote from: Broncosoozie;259807
I like that layout a lot too, although switching capslock and pause/break as Robo said is iffy.  An extra backspace or control would be cool.

Quote from: Johannes;261262
Mostly nice, but I strongly object to the pause/break position. It really ought to be something useful like ctrl or backspace.. It's easy to get used to because it's just 1 key change and it's so much better.

Quote from: isp;261347
Another pause break dissenter here (ctrl or backspace would be my preference)...but that's about all I'd change really.

The point of switching them was to allow for a new key to bind in games.  Having another ctrl there would just be a duplicate binding for a key you can already reach with your left hand.

Backspace may be another option as that would allow for an extra binding, but then where do you put pause/break?  I suppose you could stick it next to esc or in place of the . del on numpad.  So backspace may be a viable key to put there.

So you might say why not put ctrl in caps lock and put backspace where ctrl is located?  That would screw a lot of people up with common ctrl macros like ctrl+c and ctrl+v.  The point of the board is to have very little adaptation required to enjoy a compact layout.



Quote from: Broncosoozie;259807
I like how it says "Nadjestouch" on the front lol.

I like that layout a lot too, although switching capslock and pause/break as Robo said is iffy.  An extra backspace or control would be cool.

I just had an idea, what if there were another modifier key, call it "super duper" and then you can bind key shortcuts.  Instead of saying "ctrl + C" for copy you could use "super duper + C".  Would be great for gaming or using something like Blender too, could have that many more shortcuts and still have a small board.  Would probably need some software though.

Plus if you get really mad at your computer you can "super duper + ctrl + alt + del"

That would cause issues with compatibility in some software and games.  It may be possible with the right firmware and drivers installed but the best you could do is have your new modifer key simply be ctl+alt or something.  Im not sure you could completely make up your own scan code and have it work.

And yeah i threw the nadjestouch in there for fun.

Quote from: msiegel;261135
to add to Nadger's fine layout, i propose a Cursor key...

when Num Lock is on, hold the Cursor key with your thumb and use the cursor keys normally :)

(ignore f0, this version is masquerading as an hhkb ;)

Show Image

Yeah i use the upper editing block delete quite a bit, that would mess me up.

Also i wouldnt move the numlock button as some people who use the numpad switch it on and off as part of their numpad operation.  Wouldnt it be easier for day to day use to just hit numlock when you want to use the numpad?  I guess i dont understand what this edit modifier key would accomplish.  Is it so you can have numlock on and still have access to the edit keys?  Wouldnt it be easier to just toggle numlock on and off at that point?


Quote from: msiegel;261148
help, somebody update the numpad with Nadger's latest fixes!

(OpenOffice drawing attached and hereby released into public domain :)

Ah i dont have open office installed on my laptop so i cant take a look.  When i get back to my apt i can always upload the .psd if anyone wanted to make changes inside photoshop.

Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;261189
Agreed. But isn't that a long backspace in your image ?
Yes, sorry if i wasnt clear.  I wanted to make sure it had a long backspace as per the standard US layout.


Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;261189
Accidentally enabling caps to me won't affect my gaming. I rarely even accidentally acivate it either. But the windows would and i sometimes do press it by accident. Anyway i rather prefer if the pause/break and caps lock were switched back to their original positions.
That area is prime real-estate being next to the wsad keys.  Having it remain caps lock poses a problem in mmorpgs for example.  Because you type a lot in mmorpgs, so you cant bind capslock to cast root or something, because the next time you go to talk to your friends, caps lock will be on and you will be yelling at them.  


Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;261189
So your using a non standard sized ctrl ? Wouldn't this impact compatibility with other key sets e.g. Geekhack doubleshots or not ?
Good point, i never really thought of it that way.  Might be best to stick with standard sizes then.  Cause i originally simply made the left windows/fn key the same size as the main home row and had alt be standard size and ctrl be a little over standard to use up the extra room that was freed up by using home row size key for FN.  But it wouldnt be keycap replacement friendly then =(



Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;261189
Yeah i use it too. Yes i am aware of alt + tab also minimizes; but sometimes i prefer using the windows key as well. Sometimes one method doesn't work; i use the other and it manages to minimize.

I too use it to minimize while in games sometimes too.  Plus windows + tab for 3d alt tabbing or windows +d for desktop switch or windows + + - for zooming etc.  So i def want to keep it in there.

Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;261189
I prefer it if the windows key was on the left side; so you can use the FN on the right to toggle windows key lock.
Yeah the os lock is already there so it could be switched to make it useful.


Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;261189
Makes sense. I like this idea how you managed to incorporate the numpad into a 10keyless design. It's brilliant !
Its stupidly simple, i dont know why we have not seen it yet.

Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;261189
Font maybe like Cherry keyboards. Also preferably doubleshots like cherry keyboards as well; but knowing that is impossible i'd settle for doubleshots from Signature plastic same like White Rice's previous MO.

Regarding the color scheme; the black and white is nice and standard; but i prefer if it was using the same dolche color scheme like White rice's double shots. It looks less boring that way; and yet still professional looking without any weird colors like red/green/purple etc.

Yeah, aesthetics are something tricky to pin down that everyone can agree on...as seen in the double shots round 2 thread.  it also depends how much it would add to the cost of the board itself.  It might be nice to have 3 different versions.  Basic, HQ keycaps, and backlit.  Each being their own price point.


Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;261189
I agree with most of your design except the ones i highlighted out previously. This seems an excellent option for those wanting numpad features but still able to have a 10 keyless compact keyboard. Kudos.

Thanks, you had some good points and feedback.


Quote from: Moogle Stiltzkin;261189
But to truly be the perfect keyboard to me; it would have to have led lighting similar to the Razer black widow ultimate; and NKRO to usb (but preferably NKRO USB for convenience sake)
Aye, ideally that would be an option like i said above.  I like backlighting too, but i also really like the otaku look which is like the exact opposite.  Choices are always good.  I like how razer has their two versions.


Quote from: Soarer;261354
What would I change? Well, tbh I'd revert to standard caps lock as well, and I think widen the gap between the numpad and the rest - visually it would look great if that gap matched the gap between number row and f-keys, and the gaps between e.g. F4 and F5. A bigger gap would also be quite handy for feeling your way into position on the numpad.

Why not split Insert and '+' into two keys each? It would allow you to put the cursors on the bottom row if you wanted. Personally, I like the standard cursor arrangement on the numpad (with 5 remapped to down), but with a custom controller you could have two modes - standard numpad cursors, and tenkeyless style cursors.

The gap i actually did widen a bit in the mockup.  But i also dont want to get the board too wide.  Id like to keep the board below 35cm wide.  So it would depend a lot on how wide the board ended up being.

You cant split insert because numpad users hit insert with their thumb.  Thats why its wider than normal.

I will explore some of the suggestions you guys mentioned and see if i can come up with another layout to address some concerns and make it a more universally acceptable arrangement.

Not that there is any point to it, but its still kinda fun.
« Last Edit: Sat, 11 December 2010, 21:20:11 by Nadger »
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Offline Soarer

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« Reply #33 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 18:57:01 »
Quote from: Nadger;261489
You cant split insert because numpad users hit insert with their thumb.  Thats why its wider than normal.


Hmm. Hadn't thought of that, since I don't thumb it :-)

I'm guessing you thumb it, which means the layout you've chosen for the cursors makes a lot more sense to me now!

Offline Phaedrus2129

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« Reply #34 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 20:02:46 »
Make the capslock position into Delete and make the numpad delete into pause/break.
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Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #35 on: Sat, 11 December 2010, 21:05:45 »
Yeah wait what?  PAUSE/BREAK easier to reach than Backspace?

I told myself I wouldn't look at the actual layout, as I'm sure I'd have nothing but negative things to say, and instead just approve of the idea of a numpadded compact layout.

But man, HHKB has it so right with Backspace and Control positions I can't believe anyone wants to deviate from that basis if they are trying to make an ambitious custom layout.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #36 on: Sun, 12 December 2010, 04:24:28 »
I think it's great, except that I use Caps Lock on a daily basis. Swap Caps Lock and Ctrl/Break and I'd be interested. Since we're blue-skying here, make it switchable via a user-accessible dip switch on the back.
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Offline hoggy

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« Reply #37 on: Sun, 12 December 2010, 14:38:56 »
Reminds me of Sixty's post at http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=10874 (silly link button doesn't work, drat and double drat).
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Offline Nadger

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« Reply #38 on: Wed, 15 December 2010, 01:35:41 »
Okay so i had a chance to modify my layout.

Heres Version 2.0



Vs 1.0:



Okay let me go over the changes.

  • I removed the oversized left ctrl as it would interfere with replacing keycaps
  • I modified the OS Lock into Game Lock.
  • When game lock is on, it disables the OS key instead mapping it to Right Alt.  It also maps the caps lock position key to Right Ctrl.  This allows you to utilize the keys for key binds in games, but the right versions are different scan codes than the left, so you do not loose any keybind options, you actually gain some.  While also preventing accidental drops to desktop.  Having backspace mapped here while gaming would also be bad for multiplayer games.  As you would loose the ability to backspace if you bound this key to something else.
  • When Game Lock is off, the caps lock position key functions as a backspace.  This gives you an easier to reach backspace key like many people wanted.
  • When Scroll Lock is on, the caps lock position key functions as capslock.  This was done because some people actively use caps lock in their daily typing, and also as an option for people who
  • When both Game Lock and Scroll Lock are on, Game Lock gets priority.  So it functions as Right Ctrl.  I wanted to avoid any accidental caps lock events from occurring in multiplayer gaming.
  • I removed the Fn key replacing it instead with pause/break.  I did this for 2 reasons.  First, i didnt have anywhere else to put it.  Second, i figured it may be handy there for coders/debugging.
  • The media keys are now mapped to the numpad, only accessible when numlock is off.
  • I removed the stop media key due to room restrictions.  Its not really needed anyway since you can just use the play/pause key.
  • I noticed a flaw in my original design.  Numlock cant exist on the same key as insert.  This would turn numlock on every time you went to use insert.  Then your other editing keys would now be typing in numbers and signs.  So i moved it up top with the rest of the lock keys.  The upside is it looks better from a design perspective, and eliminates the issue the original would have.  The downside is you've now moved a key up 1 row and that takes getting used to.
  • I also noticed delete and insert on 0 and . of the numpad were redundant as you have them above.  So i removed the redundancies and utilized 0 for play pause and . for print screen.
  • Since I removed the FN key, but i still wanted a sleep command on the keyboard, i ran into a problem.  I didnt want any accidental sleeping which could occur if i had stuck sleep on the insert key with numlock on.  So i made the app key also function as a modifier key so App+F12 will send the sleep command.  I am not 100% certain if this would work without software, if it did not i would either remove the sleep key, or perhaps make it alt+gamelock.
  • I also fixed a small design flaw in the original image i used.  They had left shift and right shift the same size.  This threw off the bottom keys slightly.
  • I color coded the keys to make it easier to understand.

This should address most of the concerns some of you had with the original design, and fixes some of the flaws of the original while also adding functionality over the original.

I will update the original post with the updated version.  However I have not touched the mockup yet.  If i get bored i may update it as well.

Let me know if you notice any flaws with this design or have suggestions to change it.  Or even just let me know what you think of the new design.
« Last Edit: Wed, 15 December 2010, 02:09:10 by Nadger »
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Offline Lanx

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« Reply #39 on: Wed, 15 December 2010, 03:15:56 »
i punked out, keeping capslock
edit
btw nadger, you know currently your avatar is one of the most powerful superbeings in the marvel universe able to summon galactus and enlist him in his own god squad.

Offline Nadger

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« Reply #40 on: Wed, 15 December 2010, 20:48:55 »
Haha, actually no.  I had no idea.  I just had it saved for the cool story bro meme and when i needed to pick an avatar and noticed it in my pictures so i used it =p  I always wondered who it was.

May end up changing my avatar from something from the first 6 issues of walking dead, or one of the covers.  Love Tony Moore's artwork.
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Offline Lanx

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« Reply #41 on: Wed, 15 December 2010, 21:47:21 »
correction, i changed caps lock to ctrl, i'll just use the caps lock step down keycap.
For shame you don't even know the origins of your own meme.

Offline Pylon

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« Reply #42 on: Fri, 07 January 2011, 16:12:04 »
I thought about this a little, and this is what I came up with (using your template).

It's very similar, except I moved Fn to Capslock and Capslock to OS lock, added arrow key functionality to WASD, added an extra equal key to the numpad (a la Macs) and then shifted the 2x3 nav block over to the right by 1 key (to avoid Numlock and Ins being on the same key), duplicated PgUp and PgDn above the arrow keys (like on some laptops), added a Win key, and implemented Eraze-Eaze on the space bar.

EDIT: The = key should also double as PgDn when not under Numlock. I forgot that.
« Last Edit: Sat, 22 January 2011, 22:02:43 by Pylon »